Strong morals, or elitism?

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estesbob:
Many States are passing “conscience” laws for pharmacists. On the other hand some states have passed paws FORCING even privately owned Pharmacies to dispens abortificant pills. If people of Faith are driven out of the Medical profession its our own fault. Just look how viciously this young lady was attacked for adhering to her fatih-by Catholics nonentheless.! We cnat expect the secular world to respect our views when we dnoth repsect them ourselves.
How is it our own fault if we are driven out of the medical profession? Did Christ teach us to fight for our rights? I think He taught that we should expect persecution from the world.

Now, that being said, laws mandating that anything be dispensed are wrong. Its not the government’s business to tell anyone what items they must sell or what services they must perform. I also support “conscience” clauses in the medical profession. That being said, it would be foolish to go to work for Planned Parenthood and then object to dispensing birth control. If we are working for private employers, then we must either play by their rules or quit. At the same time, if we are the employers then our employees must play by our rules or quit. So, if I were a pharmacist, I would simply try to open up my own pharmacy where no birth control or abortion devices, pills, etc. would be sold. Just as if I owned my own bookstore, I would not sell pornography. But if I worked for Barnes & Nobles as a cashier, I would ring up the playboy that the customer wants to purchase, stick it in the bag, and say, “Have a nice day,” and then perhaps say a prayer for the person.
 
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estesbob:
Given that I doubt that the Customer felt much embrarassment and shame-if he did GOOD!
This is an unfortunate statement, which if heartfelt indicates an actual desire for another person to be shamed. This is tantamount to playing God.
I have run into this myself-on several occassions i have sat down to do a new cleints tax return only to see that they have a w2 from planned parenthood or some other abortion mill.I always politely return their info to them and tell them to get another CPA. Ive had complaints filed on me and been verbally abused. Should I avoid all this and take their blood money? After all we wouldnt want to cause them any shame or embarassment.
When you consult with your clients, you do so under confidentiality and with legal privacy protections in place. If you tell these clients as much such that you disclose this information outside of the professional-client relationship then yes, you are doing something wrong and probably illegal. When I prepared taxes, I turned several couples away, most often those who couldn’t seem to get their stories straight over whether they are actually married. You cannot ethically or legally file an accurate return when you have doubts over their story. If you have a bias against a client for any reason, it is ethically advisable for you to send that client to another tax preparer.

Also, I assume you are working for a company who objects to this sort of behavior, or that you are doing it clandestine without having told them you are turning away certain clients.

Of course, a totally opposite way to look at it is that you missed a half hour or more time to minister personally to this person, and chose instead to send them to another CPA who would not be able to speak the truth. Nothing wrong with that if you are unprepared to confront a sinner face to face, but I’m just pointing out there might be other ways than turning away the business. Perhaps you could tell them you will do your taxes if they say a rosary with you for the victims of their profession. Let them walk away from you, and in the unlikely even they don’t then you may find a tender spot in their armor. Meanwhile, you have said something so profound they will never forget it – they will always associate going to work with your rosary, at some subconscious level. 😃

Alan
 
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estesbob:
Why are Catholics so afraid of witnessing our Faith? The girl refused to be complicit in the customers sin and you dismiss that her expressing her moral superiority??? I admire her courage-as for the customer-he chopse to handle the situation in such a way as to generate the mazimum amount of publicity. Given that I doubt that the Customer felt much embrarassment and shame-if he did GOOD!

I have run into this myself-on several occassions i have sat down to do a new cleints tax return only to see that they have a w2 from planned parenthood or some other abortion mill.I always politely return their info to them and tell them to get another CPA. Ive had complaints filed on me and been verbally abused. Should I avoid all this and take their blood money? After all we wouldnt want to cause them any shame or embarassment.
So, Bob. Do you investigate your grocery store before you shop there? Do you refuse to get gas from gas stations that sell porn and condoms? What about your 401k? Also, what about accepting services of any kind from any company that covers contraception in their employees health insurance? At what point is the situation sufficiently remote that one will not be defiled? It is impossible to avoid all material cooperation. Let’s face the facts: some of our tax dollars are going to immoral and reprehensible things. Do you stop paying taxes? Society must insist on a certain amount of cooperation from its members or it will cease to be a society.
 
Can anybody at all see my point about how non-Catholics don’t see this as sin, and will never understand it until somebody explains it to them? I used to be a non-Catholic and an agnostic. I was not an inherently evil person. I used condoms, and did not do so out of evil intent. Ordinary people understand why it’s not right to murder, steal, cheat on their wives, etc., but they do not understand the point about contraception. Refusing to sell them does NOT make a non-Catholic feel impressed at her powerful faith, anymore than you would feel impressed at a Jehovah’s Witness refusing a blood transfusion for their child. You’d think they were weird, right? That’s what happened in this situation. Can anybody see this, or am I talking/typing to a brick wall?
 
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JeffAustralia:
Can anybody at all see my point about how non-Catholics don’t see this as sin, and will never understand it until somebody explains it to them? I used to be a non-Catholic and an agnostic. I was not an inherently evil person. I used condoms, and did not do so out of evil intent. Ordinary people understand why it’s not right to murder, steal, cheat on their wives, etc., but they do not understand the point about contraception. Refusing to sell them does NOT make a non-Catholic feel impressed at her powerful faith, anymore than you would feel impressed at a Jehovah’s Witness refusing a blood transfusion for their child. You’d think they were weird, right? That’s what happened in this situation. Can anybody see this, or am I talking/typing to a brick wall?
Jeff. I see your point and I think it has relevance if we are talking about refusing to sell condoms as a “witness” so to speak. But I think the primary reason that the girl refused to check out the condoms was that it would make her materially complicit in sin. Now, this is true. Whether she is actually responsible for sin is another question. The whole mess would be solved if Catholics who were unwilling to sell codoms, cigarettes, guns, or whatever simply did not take jobs in places that sold those things.
 
Thank you!

Yes. Agreed. Absolutely. I’m all for people standing up for what they believe, and for living according to their principles. If she refused to take the job, then fine. I’d take my hat off to her. But being ignorant to the effects of her actions on others who don’t deserve it (customer & manager), that’s just being elitist. If she got hold of brochures explaining the Church’s teaching, and snuck them onto the shelf next to the condoms, then I’d be impressed. If she wrote letters to newspapers explaining the reasons, or if she gave talks at youth groups, then that’d be great. If she was somebody who did charity work (and no, she doesn’t) for those not as well off as her, then I’d be hugely impressed.
 
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AlanFromWichita:
LOL.

It is clear you are struggling with this teaching I’m trying to convey, so it does not bother me that you ask for clarification and even jump to a wrong assumption because at least that means you’re trying to imagine what is going on in my mind that you haven’t yet understood yet.

No, I’m not bothered by the Pope saying abortion is wrong, or condoms for that matter.

Then again, if the Pope had accepted a paying job at a retail store or abortion clinic and then stole from his employers to try to make the point in a covert fashion, then I’d have to reevaluate.

Thanks for the spirited effort! 🙂

Alan
You’re position - or at least one of them - has been that the cashier was wrong for imposing her beliefs on the woman buying condoms because she was not a believer herself and the when Christ or St. Paul reprimands people, they are reprimanding believers who have already accepted the Truth. To reprimand non-believers is “uncharitable,” aparently. Therefore, I presented to you the case of the Pope proclaiming the evils of abortion to the world because when he does so, he is not just speaking to believers, but “imposing” beliefs on non-believers as well which happens to be the very same thing everyone here seems to be critiquing the cashier for.

Don’t fret, I understand your position(s). I don’t disagree with you because I don’t understand your position.
 
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AlanFromWichita:
In the story I was reading, the girl actually prevented the sale. She did not simply voice an opinion or concern; she intervened…
As there is no news article to pull from and only the heresay of the original poster, I’ll use his words to describe the event.

“…refuses to sell condoms to a customer, and tells her to take her shopping trolley to another checkout.”

She did *not *prevent the sale. She suggested that the customer make the sale at another register by another cashier. The customer was *never *denied the choice to purchase the goods there in the store. She didn’t run the customer out of the store shaking a stick, didn’t lecture the customer on the evils of contraception, didn’t prevent the purchase, *nada. *She told the customer to see another cashier. If this is a crime, I should have been fired when I worked retail because we told this to customers alot - althought for far less grave and more for operational reasons.

God forbid a person purchase something at a different checkout counter…
If one were to speculate, one must wonder if she wasn’t hoping for something like this to happen to make a point using passive-aggressive means, or to establish herself as a goody twoshoes extraordinaire.
Can you say “judgement?” The hypocrisy of those attacking the girl runs rampant in this thread. That’s what drives me nuts on this thread. The prevailing attitude seems to be: “Let’s not attack the person who was trying to commit a sin against God, let’s attack the girl who stood up for what she believed and judge her motives instead.”
Anger can be just as deadly – not in a worldly way but in a spiritual way – as actual murder, and Christ made a specific point about telling this.
“If you are angry, let it be without sin.” Anger does not equal sin. Furthermore, people feeling bad or embarassed about sinning isn’t a sin. Find me where Christ says it is. You won’t find it, because if Christ said so, he would be calling every great Jewish prophet before him a greivous sinner as well as the New Testament authors whose works would be included after that of His life.
If you want to switch back and forth between spiritual and worldly during the game, you can come to wrong conclusions unless you apply it equally. You can have it both ways, but only if others in the discussion don’t notice it.
Will embarassment send someone to hell? Will fornication?

That’s all I’m trying to say. If embarassment is the worst thing that comes of her attempt to purchases condoms, she should consider herself fortunate. You’re the one that fails to see any adverse affects of sin on a human being in this world. If she sins, its ok, but no one better make her feel bad about it!
“she spiritually murdered this guy and he was doing no harm whatsoever.” See? Not even I have been asserting these in juxtaposition because it is clearly absurd. It is also clearly absurd for you to use spiritual arguments to justify condemning the customer while using worldly arguments to justify elevating the clerk for doing so.
What legitimate, serious harm did the girl cause the cashier - spiritual or otherwise? Where is your Scripture backing this up?
In a way you have a good point. She skipped right over the condemning and judgment part and went straight for sentencing.
lol. Where? Since when is “see another cashier” a death sentence? lol. You are *far *too oversensitive.
The analogy applies because of the parallel of blaming and condemning. No she wasn’t going to physically kill the customer, but please do not trivialize heavenly transgressions this way. If those condoms lead to death, then certainly does her judgment of the customer.
You’re right. Good thing she didn’t judge the customer, or else the cashier might be in a real pickle.
She intervened in a legal transaction in which the customer was engaged, presumably as a self-appointed spiritual director, and thereby placed her own morality above that of the customer – all without being asked her opinion.
Your comment reeks of judgement of this girl and your own “moral superiority” to mock and bash this cashier for what she believed is terrible hypocricy. Don’t condem this girl for “judging” when you’re grinding her into the ground with your own opinion. If what the cashier did is wrong, you’ve done ten times worse to this girl with your own words on this thread.
 
(continued…)
If that is not judgment, then what is? Would she have to have done before you see it for what it is, provide an indictment signed by a judge?
Ok, let’s start with the basics.

Judgement: Making a pronouncement on the state of someone’s soul or final state of their salvation. (i.e. “you’re an evil person” or “you’re going to hell.”)

Correction: Informing someone that a particular action or belief is incorrect or needs to be mended without making a pronouncement on the state of someone’s soul or being (i.e. “You really shouldn’t talk during a movie” or “don’t yell ‘bomb’ in an airport.”)

The Pharisees that tried to stone Mary Magdelene had made a judgement on the state of her soul, sentenced her to hell, and tried to take her life to expedite the process and thus engaged in the former.

Jesus, every Old Testament prophet, John the Baptist, St. Paul, St. Peter, St. James, nearly every Church Father, Church leaders over the past 2000 years including the current Pope, as well as the cashier in question, have engaged in the latter.

“Feeling bad” isn’t a sin. Being “embarassed” isn’t “murder.” Where do you come up with this stuff?
 
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JeffAustralia:
Can anybody at all see my point about how non-Catholics don’t see this as sin, and will never understand it until somebody explains it to them? I used to be a non-Catholic and an agnostic. I was not an inherently evil person. I used condoms, and did not do so out of evil intent. Ordinary people understand why it’s not right to murder, steal, cheat on their wives, etc., but they do not understand the point about contraception. Refusing to sell them does NOT make a non-Catholic feel impressed at her powerful faith, anymore than you would feel impressed at a Jehovah’s Witness refusing a blood transfusion for their child. You’d think they were weird, right? That’s what happened in this situation. Can anybody see this, or am I talking/typing to a brick wall?
Being unaware of a sin does not make it any less evil. The passage from Scripture escapes me at the moment, but it says that if a person is aware of something being sinful and commits the act, the judgement falls on them. But if someone is unaware of something being sinful, and we don’t tell them, the judgement falls on us.

Sin is always an objective evil. The question is: who is culpable?
 
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JeffAustralia:
But being ignorant to the effects of her actions on others who don’t deserve it (customer & manager), that’s just being elitist.
Glad to see your so judgemental of this girl. Dare I say you’ve become quite “elitist” yourself?

If “judging” a person is the ultimate evil in your mind, you ought to practice what you preach.
 
You MAY remember that I’m not engaging you in discussion anymore, Mike. Your lack of compassion and constant sarcasm (eg. “glad to see you’re so judgemental”) makes me uncomfortable.
 
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JeffAustralia:
You MAY remember that I’m not engaging you in discussion anymore, Mike. Your lack of compassion and constant sarcasm (eg. “glad to see you’re so judgemental”) makes me uncomfortable.
But your lack of compassion for this cashier is ok? You opened this thread completely blasting the reputation of a girl that I’ve never met, never seen, and never really saw do the act in question. And yet, you’ve managed to make people condemn this girl for what you say she did. That’s called gossip, its character assasination, and its the very thing you’re crucifying this cashier for.

The hypocricy *abounds *on this thread.
 
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JeffAustralia:
Can anybody at all see my point about how non-Catholics don’t see this as sin, and will never understand it until somebody explains it to them?
Yes, surely. The wrongness of contraception is usually not obvious to secular folk without discussion. A cashier’s refusal to ring up a condom would probably not teach them why contraception is wrong. Also, if the refusal hypothetically led to many people learning that the customer uses condoms, then the customer might rightly get upset if that could have been avoided.

Say I know person X uses condoms. Revealing this info without cause could lead to loss of reputation for the person, so I ought to be very careful with that info. Secular folks are aware of this type of principle, so they would be likely to get upset if anything about a situation reeked of unjustly spreading about private information. A justly upset person is unlikely to take away a positive lesson about contraception from the encounter.
 
“That’s all I’m trying to say. If embarassment is the worst thing that comes of her attempt to purchases condoms, she should consider herself fortunate. You’re the one that fails to see any adverse affects of sin on a human being in this world. If she sins, its ok, but no one better make her feel bad about it.”

True. If just embarassment is the worst thing, then why don’t you go thru yr neighbors’ medicine cabinets and bedroom drawers to look for birth control devices. Grab them and set them out on their kitchen table. And set them straight on your beliefs. You might be embarassed. They might be shocked. However, even non-catholics and non-christians are also obligated to follow the moral law which excludes birth control. Sin is sin. Remember, error has no rights. At least you might make them reconsider their sinful sex life.

Faith demands you take risks. I suggest you have faith in yr faith.
 
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Pug:
Yes, surely. The wrongness of contraception is usually not obvious to secular folk without discussion. A cashier’s refusal to ring up a condom would probably not teach them why contraception is wrong. Also, if the refusal hypothetically led to many people learning that the customer uses condoms, then the customer might rightlyget upset if that could have been avoided.

Say I know person X uses condoms. Revealing this info without cause could lead to loss of reputation for the person, so I ought to be very careful with that info. Secular folks are aware of this type of principle, so they would be likely to get upset if anything about a situation reeked of unjustly spreading about private information. A justly upset person is unlikely to take away a positive lesson about contraception from the encounter.
However…

If I’m in the store buying tampons for my wife, and the cashier makes it evident to everyone in the store that I’m purchasing tampons, I’d be pretty embarrassed but not angry. Since I know there is nothing wrong with purchasing tampons, the embarassment would fade and no harm done. In fact, I’d probably have a good laugh when I got home.

If people knew in their hearts that their is absolutley nothing wrong with condoms, why such rage over the embarassment?
 
MikeinSD said:
“That’s all I’m trying to say. If embarassment is the worst thing that comes of her attempt to purchases condoms, she should consider herself fortunate. You’re the one that fails to see any adverse affects of sin on a human being in this world. If she sins, its ok, but no one better make her feel bad about it.”

True. If just embarassment is the worst thing, then why don’t you go thru yr neighbors’ medicine cabinets and bedroom drawers to look for birth control devices. Grab them and set them out on their kitchen table. And set them straight on your beliefs. You might be embarassed. They might be shocked. However, even non-catholics and non-christians are also obligated to follow the moral law which excludes birth control. Sin is sin. Remember, error has no rights. At least you might make them reconsider their sinful sex life.

Laws forbid invasion of privacy. No such law exists preventing a cashier from suggesting that a customer take their purchase to another register.
 
After reflecting more on this, I think the whole thing is much ado about nothing. I really would like to see the original media reports and also the girl’s side of the story.

If the reports are true and have been accurately reported by the orginal poster, I guess the wisest thing on the girl’s part, if she had a problem with selling condoms, would have been not to accept the job in the first place if she knew the store sold condoms and that would be a problem for her.
 
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Pug:
Revealing this info without cause could lead to loss of reputation for the person, so I ought to be very careful with that info.
Another thought…

I just keep asking myself in response to this statement: Why? If someone is secure in believing that there is nothing wrong with what they’re doing, why the uproar? Since I’m Catholic, lets say I’m in Albertson’s trying to buy a nice big piece of pork and the cashier I come to is Muslim. If the Muslim cashier said to me: “I’m sorry, but you’ll have to go to another register. I can’t approve the purchase of pork.” I would smile, understanding what Muslims believe and admiring his fortitude, walk to another register, and since *I know *there is absolutely nothing wrong with purchasing pork: no harm done.

You’ll find that more often than not the cause of embarassment when someone’s sin is pointed out is the fact that in their heart they *really do know *that it’s sinful.
 
Pug, I appreciate your understanding of the situation. I’m a convert of nearly 7 years. I grew up in a family of non-practicing Anglicans (Episcopalian for Americans) at the end of an era where Australia was divided down the middle between the English-decended wealthier Anglicans, and the poorer Irish-descended Catholics, where distrust and dislike abounded. We Anglicans knew practically nothing about our religion, except that we weren’t “them”. Ignorance and downright lies about Catholic belief was rife. When I was converting, I read the Catechism (thanks for the advice of an old-school priest), and discovered what no non-Catholic ever knew, ie. what the Church REALLY believes. I believe thoroughly that our Church HAS “the answers”, and yet I find it frustrating that the largest and oldest of the Christian faiths is the least universally understood. And incidents like this make me realise that so many in the Church don’t realise how little is understood out there. I could have accepted the Catholic Faith 20 years before I did…had I only known. And I’m sure I wasn’t in the minority either!
 
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