Strong morals, or elitism?

[Pug]

mike182d:

If I’m in the store buying tampons for my wife

I agree, embarrassment later forgotten would be the likely outcome, unless you think the cashier did it out of malice or condemnation. Hmmm…what if you were single and several people in the lines knew you? This might cause a hassle of explanations for you, so you might be more annoyed. I have a bit of trouble seeing anyone getting super mad over this thing, as I am not prone to getting mad in these situations. Really.

If rage comes out over this, there is probably some reason besides a mere condom, some history, some something. Knowing it really is a sin could be a likely cause. Or perhaps being a two-timer who only uses condoms with one of them…or something benign like lack of sleep, or perhaps they have been burned by gossip in the past and so are very private.

Oh, I just caught your second post. You know, say a Catholic woman uses the pill for disease, is married, is not having sex for an appropriate reason, so is in the right. Let’s say she doesn’t wish to tell people that her marriage is currently sexless. If some nosey relative tells all the family that she is on the pill with glee, thinking the’ve caught her out in a flaw, she is stuck with appearing to be unfaithful as a Catholic or who knows what unless she tells the whole story of her marriage and health to everyone. I’d be mad. I know perfectly well you can’t convince an entire family you’re not having sex. That would have an impact on reputation even though I would be in the right. Being in the right is not all it takes to not get mad over private type issues.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

mike182d:

Your comment reeks of judgement of this girl and your own “moral superiority” to mock and bash this cashier for what she believed is terrible hypocricy. Don’t condem this girl for “judging” when you’re grinding her into the ground with your own opinion. If what the cashier did is wrong, you’ve done ten times worse to this girl with your own words on this thread.

I was wondering when someone would finally call me on hypocracy!

You are right in that I have judged the actions of this hypothetical girl in this situation. Maybe she is an actual girl, but until she gets here on this thread with us we can only work with assumptions if we intend to do more than say, “boy she gave that customer what-for! What a warrior!”

The reason for doing so is to combat the bandwagon of unconditional support for her behaving that way, because frankly I am starting to see how it works against our plan to have such actions become public.

Aside from her relationship with the customer, she has objectively wronged her employer by making her own rules and made a unilateral decision to perform in a way that is against the policy of that employer, all while still accepting a paycheck. That is dishonorable and shows she is untrustworthy, so even if she is not an evil judge she is a lousy employee and I’m not impressed. After the first time such a thing happens, she should have at least discussed it with her boss before doing it again, or if they could not come to an agreement she should terminate her position.

I am not retracting my judgment of her actions (whether she sinned or not she behaved in a destructive fashion) but I do assert that she was not ethical in her dealings with her boss, and I hold those lack of ethics as objective evidence of a problem employee.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

mike182d:

Glad to see your so judgemental of this girl. Dare I say you’ve become quite “elitist” yourself?

If “judging” a person is the ultimate evil in your mind, you ought to practice what you preach.

LOL! Join the judgment club! You qualify with honors credentials!

Come on in. The water is fine.

We all judge each other, and we can play word games all day as to whether it is the actions or the person, or whether it is loving correction or condescention. At the end of the day, what I’m interested in is not so much whether this girl in particular sinned in her own heart or whatever, but whether this is the way we want to teach our own children to act.

If my children got a job at a store and pulled this kind of stunt, I would not expect the store to have any mercy on them. They have strong opinions about birth control, but they also understand that spiritual warfare is a very subtle thing. One has to acknowledge that one’s actions may have a result that is worse than a transgression those actions are supposed to prevent. Young people need to learn how to interact with the rest of the world without causing the world to become hostile to themselves. I know this from personal experience, as I used to set about helping other people do what is right, only to be rejected and thrown in a mental ward. This girl needs to learn how to integrate her beliefs with her actions around non-Catholics, as we are called upon to be cunning and clever about the way we approach others – not “in your face.”

Please don’t reiterate that the girl simply asked the customer to move to a different line. If she did that, assuming the store was not crowded and she said it in some magical tone of voice that made it sound non-judgmental, that excuse would only work for the first time.

If the store knew she was doing this and was OK with it, then that’s fine from that standpoint and the only argument left is whether the girl acted improperly toward the customer.

In this case, the girl has done us a favor by supplying a case which is simple enough to understand the details, but complex enough to allow for a rich interpretation of proper (i.e. strategic) behavior. For that I thank her.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

mike182d:

However…

If I’m in the store buying tampons for my wife, and the cashier makes it evident to everyone in the store that I’m purchasing tampons, I’d be pretty embarrassed but not angry. Since I know there is nothing wrong with purchasing tampons, the embarassment would fade and no harm done. In fact, I’d probably have a good laugh when I got home.

If people knew in their hearts that their is absolutley nothing wrong with condoms, why such rage over the embarassment?

Because they have been judged by standards in which they do not believe, and were surprised to have to take unsolicited spiritual advice from a child, and regardless of guilt were treated as a miserable sinner and thereby humbled.

The issue with tampons is not troubling because it would have been a one-time deal. When it comes to condoms, the very fact that we have hoards of people who support this girl, and likely other girls are being systematically trained or encouraged to act the same way – that they may feel victim of an entire institution rather than just a one-time hassle. If they feel that way, they are right – that is if the Catholic Church supplies cheerleaders and kudos then she is victim not just to a whimsical cashier, but to the Roman Catholic Church.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

mike182d:

Another thought…

I just keep asking myself in response to this statement: Why? If someone is secure in believing that there is nothing wrong with what they’re doing, why the uproar? Since I’m Catholic, lets say I’m in Albertson’s trying to buy a nice big piece of pork and the cashier I come to is Muslim. If the Muslim cashier said to me: “I’m sorry, but you’ll have to go to another register. I can’t approve the purchase of pork.” I would smile, understanding what Muslims believe and admiring his fortitude, walk to another register, and since *I know *there is absolutely nothing wrong with purchasing pork: no harm done.

This is a really good point.

You’ll find that more often than not the cause of embarassment when someone’s sin is pointed out is the fact that in their heart they *really do know *that it’s sinful.

Perhaps, but with condoms I doubt it. They know that other people believe it is sinful, and they just may be sick of trying to justify themselves to those who do. Keep in mind that rehab programs, school sex-ed and the like teach specifically how to use these things. Church teachings on this issue are so subtle that many Catholics – myself included – still have a rough time with it, and in particular how the teachings translate into everyday behavior.

If they were committing adultery with the condoms, then they might understand. If they were buying them for use within marriage, I suspect a fair survey would find that even among Catholics many people do not believe it is wrong, or even if they do they do not understand why not.

Alan

 

[DreadVandal]

mike182d:

Another thought…

I just keep asking myself in response to this statement: Why? If someone is secure in believing that there is nothing wrong with what they’re doing, why the uproar? Since I’m Catholic, lets say I’m in Albertson’s trying to buy a nice big piece of pork and the cashier I come to is Muslim. If the Muslim cashier said to me: “I’m sorry, but you’ll have to go to another register. I can’t approve the purchase of pork.” I would smile, understanding what Muslims believe and admiring his fortitude, walk to another register, and since *I know *there is absolutely nothing wrong with purchasing pork: no harm done.

You’ll find that more often than not the cause of embarassment when someone’s sin is pointed out is the fact that in their heart they *really do know *that it’s sinful.

Of course, and perhaps this is beside to the point, the Muslim would have to do that quite often. I assume that pork sales are a regular occurance in a grocery store. Also, imagine hypothetically that there is a store run on condoms (maybe a buy 1 box get 1 free or something), and now all of a sudden there is a long line of people all with boxes of condoms in their shopping cart. If I were this girl’s employer, I would not be too sympathetic with her religious beliefs (of course since I am Catholic, I would never have condoms in my store if I owned a grocery store). But let’s say I’m the manager of a grocery store and the corporation that owns it insists on stocking condoms. I would still not be pleased I suppose if the girl was making trouble for store patrons. What is the right thing to do? I don’t know. Thankfully, I am not the manager at a grocery store so I don’t have to worry about these conflicts. I am a university librarian though and we do have materials that many folks would consider objectionable. Heck, I consider some of our material objectionable. But would I refuse to assist a patron who is pro-choice and writing a paper for speech class arguing the pro choice position?

I also teach philosophy. Do I give a stupid a bad grade or refuse to grade the paper of a student who writes an excellent piece defending the practice of abortion? (Excellent in the sense of being tightly argued and well written). I am simply not allowed to do that. If someone from planned parenthood came in to the library and asked me for all of the prochoice literature I can find. I would be obligated to aid the patron in finding it. That is the nature of my profession. I assist people to obtain information for research purposes. I do even ask what they intend to do with the said information outside of that and I do not recommend or dissuade people based on my personal ideological views.

 

[estesbob]

AlanFromWichita:

This is an unfortunate statement, which if heartfelt indicates an actual desire for another person to be shamed. This is tantamount to playing God.

I think that shame ins coupled with the consicience. if the customer didnt see anything wrong with what he was doing he wouldnt feel any shame, would he?

When you consult with your clients, you do so under confidentiality and with legal privacy protections in place. If you tell these clients as much such that you disclose this information outside of the professional-client relationship then yes, you are doing something wrong and probably illegal. When I prepared taxes, I turned several couples away, most often those who couldn’t seem to get their stories straight over whether they are actually married. You cannot ethically or legally file an accurate return when you have doubts over their story. If you have a bias against a client for any reason, it is ethically advisable for you to send that client to another tax preparer.

Also, I assume you are working for a company who objects to this sort of behavior, or that you are doing it clandestine without having told them you are turning away certain clients.

Sonce I own my own companies(and have so for 26 years) this is not a problem

Of course, a totally opposite way to look at it is that you missed a half hour or more time to minister personally to this person, and chose instead to send them to another CPA who would not be able to speak the truth. Nothing wrong with that if you are unprepared to confront a sinner face to face, but I’m just pointing out there might be other ways than turning away the business. Perhaps you could tell them you will do your taxes if they say a rosary with you for the victims of their profession. Let them walk away from you, and in the unlikely even they don’t then you may find a tender spot in their armor. Meanwhile, you have said something so profound they will never forget it – they will always associate going to work with your rosary, at some subconscious level.

Alan

Must have been a LONG time since youv’e have neen through a tax season.

 

[estesbob]

mike182d:

Another thought…

I just keep asking myself in response to this statement: Why? If someone is secure in believing that there is nothing wrong with what they’re doing, why the uproar? Since I’m Catholic, lets say I’m in Albertson’s trying to buy a nice big piece of pork and the cashier I come to is Muslim. If the Muslim cashier said to me: “I’m sorry, but you’ll have to go to another register. I can’t approve the purchase of pork.” I would smile, understanding what Muslims believe and admiring his fortitude, walk to another register, and since *I know *there is absolutely nothing wrong with purchasing pork: no harm done.

You’ll find that more often than not the cause of embarassment when someone’s sin is pointed out is the fact that in their heart they *really do know *that it’s sinful.

Good point.

 

[estesbob]

DreadVandal:

So, Bob. Do you investigate your grocery store before you shop there? Do you refuse to get gas from gas stations that sell porn and condoms? What about your 401k? Also, what about accepting services of any kind from any company that covers contraception in their employees health insurance? At what point is the situation sufficiently remote that one will not be defiled? It is impossible to avoid all material cooperation. Let’s face the facts: some of our tax dollars are going to immoral and reprehensible things. Do you stop paying taxes? Society must insist on a certain amount of cooperation from its members or it will cease to be a society.

I wasnt talking about tax dollars-i was talking about my refusal to perform work for and thus recieve money from those who work in abortion mills. Seems preety clear cut to me.

 

[Pug]

estesbob:

I think that shame ins coupled with the consicience. if the customer didnt see anything wrong with what he was doing he wouldnt feel any shame, would he?

Our sense of shame is often connected with social conscience, super ego (Freud), whatever. I have felt shame on many, many occasions when I have done nothing wrong (morally). Only with age have I had any success understanding the phenomenon and trying to correct it.

 

[Pug]

Ah HA! The reason the customer got mad is that he had to go get back in the line.

Even with a sign saying CASH ONLY, I’ve seen folks get mad when the cashier won’t take a credit card in that line. I suspect there wasn’t a NO CONDOMS sign.

 

[mike182d]

AlanFromWichita:

Aside from her relationship with the customer, she has objectively wronged her employer by making her own rules and made a unilateral decision to perform in a way that is against the policy of that employer, all while still accepting a paycheck.

Kind of like Oscar Schindler receiving a paycheck from the Nazis while saving Jews?

Bear in mind, I have no problem with her boss firing her. Perhaps I should make that clear. If she were fired, I don’t think there would be much to support protesting and demanding her re-employment there. However, I do think what she did was right and sometimes doing what is right can get your fired. Heck, sometimes it can get you killed.

 

[mike182d]

DreadVandal:

I also teach philosophy. Do I give a stupid a bad grade or refuse to grade the paper of a student who writes an excellent piece defending the practice of abortion? (Excellent in the sense of being tightly argued and well written). I am simply not allowed to do that. If someone from planned parenthood came in to the library and asked me for all of the prochoice literature I can find. I would be obligated to aid the patron in finding it. That is the nature of my profession. I assist people to obtain information for research purposes. I do even ask what they intend to do with the said information outside of that and I do not recommend or dissuade people based on my personal ideological views.

There is a bit of difference there, though. The Church never has taught that it is sinful to argue for certain things in dialogue but rather it is wrong to support certain things. Someone providing a well written argument for abortion hasn’t necessarily sinned. In fact, if it *were *a sin to do so, every philospher would be going to hell. It is the nature of a philosopher to strengthen their own position by presenting the opposing argument in the best possible way. To do anything else would be a fallacy in argumentation (strawman).

To support someone in sin is to directly provide the means for them to sin, such as selling an abortion doctor medical knives or needles you know will be used to kill a child. Allowing someone to research the enemy isn’t necessarily sinful as, one would hope, a person looking at the situation from an objective, unbaised standpoint, would realize the error in their thinking. In fact, the research may lead them away from abortion. You never know.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

mike182d:

Kind of like Oscar Schindler receiving a paycheck from the Nazis while saving Jews?

Bear in mind, I have no problem with her boss firing her. Perhaps I should make that clear. If she were fired, I don’t think there would be much to support protesting and demanding her re-employment there. However, I do think what she did was right and sometimes doing what is right can get your fired. Heck, sometimes it can get you killed.

It sounds like we agree that she has wronged her boss – if not on the first time it happened, then at least in that she continued what she was doing without discussing it with management. Therefore, she act

I also think she wronged the customer and/or behaved in a prideful way, based on inserting herself as self-appointed spiritual director, and therefore acted improperly in refusing to participate in the sale at all.

It seems you believe that she was up against a brick wall, in that she would be an accessory to the customer’s alleged sin. Therefore, according to you, she acted properly and really had no choice – if I understand you correctly – and could not participate in the sale.

At this point you seem to have heard my reasoning, so if I understand you correctly then barring new (name removed by moderator)ut I’ll let you connect the dots for yourself. (Maybe some day you will “come around.” )

For myself, I will discuss these situations with my daughters and prepare them for such circumstances.

Alan