Strong Pull towards Religious Life AND Marriage

[CathPhilosopher]

Br., JR., thanks for your comments. I think they’re quite good. In case your point wasn’t clear about St. Bernard… I think what you were getting at is, if a person leaves the religious order to which they vowed themselves for life (without getting a dispensation from the pope, which is possible now, but was not possible at that time), they are failing their commitment just as much as a married person who leaves his or her spouse, and that is probably what St. Bernard meant when he said such a person “joins the company of the devil.” (I haven’t seen the original quote in context, myself.)

I was a bit amused by the statement that marriage is not inferior to religious life, but religious life is superior to marriage; aren’t “inferior” and “superior” relatives, so that if A is superior to B, B is inferior to A? I think I know what you mean, though: it’s not so deficiency in marriage that gives rise to the comparison, but an excellence of religious life.

There are a lot of patristic texts, as well as St. Paul, which give the impression that marriage is for those who have a problem with concupiscence. I wrote an article wrestling with the issue, Is Marriage For the Weak?, in which I try to explain why it isn’t entirely true, even though religious life is objectively superior to marriage.

 

[FranciscanDoc]

Please don’t take this the wrong way or become offended, but I’ve been seriously disturbed by some of the posts on this page. How can we try to convince someone to make such an important decision one way or the other without knowing God’s will on the matter? Not everyone is called to the same way of life.

I must also point out that marriage is in no way inferior to the religious life. We all must do what God calls us to do with our lives; some are called to marriage while others are called to be religious. One path is not intrinsically superior to the other, and as someone pointed out, marriage IS one of the 7 sacraments (and the religious life is not btw). As a husband and father of two wonderful children, I can honestly say that marriage and the family life is an entirely fulfilling vocation and calling.

I’m also surprised that no one has mentioned the secular orders that are out there. Personally, I’m married with children but am also in the formation process for becoming a member of Secular Franciscan Order (formerly the brothers ans sisters of penance). Being married AND religious is not mutually exclusive. As a secular franciscan you vow to live the gospel life as taught by St. Francis of Assisi according to your standing in life. You stay 100% faithful to your spouse (chastity), embrace humility, profess obedience to the Church and her teachings, and reject the transient material things of this world (poverty). This order was founded by St. Francis back in the 1200s, so it is by no means a new concept. Other religious orders also have secular orders, but I’m not as familiar with them.

Here is the website for the Secular Franciscans if you want to know more. nafra-sfo.org/. You can also call 1-800-FRANCIS to find a local fraternity and inquire about the order.

No matter what God’s plan is for your life, please don’t be persuaded to act differently because of pressure from others or your own fears. You are now in a period of discernment and I recommend you follow the coincidences God places before you to best ascertain his will. If you join an order and take vows without fully knowing his will, you will not be fulfilled. Same goes if you get married and are still unsure about whether he called you to join a religious order instead.

If you want my personal opinion on the matter, I recommend you date this Catholic man you’ve been eying and see if things click. We do the same thing during the inquiry/formation period when joining a religious order. It just makes sense to feel the waters to find out what God is calling you to do. Feel free to PM me if you want to talk privately on the matter.

Pax et Bonum,
-Travis-

 

[Lilllabettt]

One path is not intrinsically superior to the other,

This statement is in direct opposition to the dogmatic teaching of the Catholic Church.

The OP is a faithful Catholic, who has assured me privately and on this thread publicly that she desires to follow all the teachings of the Catholic Church, including the teaching that consecrated life is objectively superior to marriage.

I assume that you have not read the pertinent parts of this thread and/or are unaware of your disunity with the Church on this issue.

The lack of catechesis on this matter is frustrating to me. People who are persuing a religious vocation speak with some authority on this matter; others take what we say very seriously. We have a special obligation to find out what the Church’s teaching is and only speak the truth about it.

 

[JReducation]

This statement is in direct opposition to the dogmatic teaching of the Catholic Church.

The OP is a faithful Catholic, who has assured me privately and on this thread publicly that she desires to follow all the teachings of the Catholic Church, including the teaching that consecrated life is objectively superior to marriage.

I assume that you have not read the pertinent parts of this thread and/or are unaware of your disunity with the Church on this issue.

The lack of catechesis on this matter is frustrating to me. People who are persuing a religious vocation speak with some authority on this matter; others take what we say very seriously. We have a special obligation to find out what the Church’s teaching is and only speak the truth about it.

I believe that point that Franciscan Doc tried to make is that even though religious life is objectively superior, we must keep in mind that it may not be subjectively superior. When the rubber hits the road, it is the subjective what makes or breaks a saint In other words, whether or not you are in the right place.

While religious life may remain objectively superior, it is not superior for everyone, as some people will not find salvation through religious life, because they have not been called to that kind of consecration.

Ultimately, what we look for is, as the old Baltimore Catechism said, “to love him, serve him and be happy with him forever in heaven.”

The superior state for the individual (subjective) is going to be that state where the person can do this. Some people are not called to religious life. Therefore, if they enter religious life, they will be unable to love, serve or be happy here or in heaven. You can’t do these three if you’re not where God wants you to be.

That being said, this is why the language in the theology of the religious life is so difficult. We do not have the right words to explain it in words other than objectively superior, meaning a higher calling. Yet at the same time, protecting the sacrament of marriage. Which obviously is a sign instituted by Christ to give grace (His Divine life). Religious life is not a sacrament. It does not give grace. It is a way of surrendering to grace without the distractions that come with marriage.

Having been married, a widower and now a religious, I can see how each is noble in its own way: married life, single life, and religious life. I can also see how the Church defines religious life as a superior way of life, because it is much easier for a religious to live the Gospel than it is for a married person. The married person makes many more sacrifices and faces many more challenges to his/her faith on a daily basis than does the religious. For beginners, we don’t have to share a bed with anyone who snores, keeping us up all night and waking up feeling like we want to kill him/her.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Tybourne]

The married person makes many more sacrifices and faces many more challenges to his/her faith on a daily basis than does the religious. For beginners, we don’t have to share a bed with anyone who snores, keeping us up all night and waking up feeling like we want to kill him/her.

We (married faithful) don’t need the Night Office (that Carthusians have) because our children and spouses wake us up instead!!

 

[JReducation]

We (married faithful) don’t need the Night Office (that Carthusians have) because our children and spouses wake us up instead!!

There is somethign unfair here. I’m a Franciscan, not a Carhusian. We get up for the midnight office. Must be another conspiracy.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JReducation]

We (married faithful) don’t need the Night Office (that Carthusians have) because our children and spouses wake us up instead!!

There is somethign unfair here. I’m a Franciscan, not a Carhusian. We get up for the midnight office. Must be another conspiracy.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

PS. It’s actually at 12:30 AM. Does that make it invalid?

 

[joanofarc143130]

Everyone is called to be perfect. Marriage is generally for people who have a problem with concupiscence, or who, because they knew no better, have already entered into it. It is the less to be preferred good, because it is harder to serve God in, one is kept busy by many cares of the world. Like Mary and Martha’s works, both are good, but one is better.

Also people who are married live in the world. The world compared to religion is like comparing heaven and hell… or as St. Bernard of Clairvaus says: ‘He who leaves the convent to return to the world, quits the company of angels to join that of the devil.’

One would need to specially discern that one was called to marriage rather than religion generally.

We should all, if we are capable of it, naturally desire what is better.

[/INDENT]

Shin, I respectfully but strongly disagree. Let’s pretend everyone was perfect, according to your standards. Everyone would dedicate their lives to becoming a religious; nobody would let “passions” force them into marriage, which is abominably inferior in your opinion.

There was actually a group of people in the 1700s who believed this and tried it. They were called the Shakers. Guess what happened to them – they died out a long time ago because they couldn’t have children!

I know what you’re trying to say; you strongly support religious vocation and this is great. There is definitely a spiritual advantage in it which consists in single-mindedness and being able to serve God without distraction. But don’t you think it’s even more of a marvel to see a married person who has distraction thrown at them from every side, yet is able to serve God with interior recollection and love Him whole heartedly?

I think you need to acknowledge that some people are CALLED to marriage as a vocation. Why would Jesus have established it as a sacrament otherwise? “Yeah, you don’t want to go this route, it’s definitely inferior and is only for people who can’t control themselves, but I think I’ll just give it My stamp of approval and blessing and grace anyway.” No! Jesus doesn’t contradict Himself.

Please continue to support the call to religious life; the Church needs a lot of people who are so zealously committed to it. But the Church also needs people who are committed to strong, Christ-centered marriages that raise up strong Catholic children in this bleak, dark world where the ideals of marriage have all but flown to the wind and divorce is just as common as fornication and the like.

I think you are misinterpreting St. Bernard’s quote; he is not talking about people who discern that they are called to marriage, who choose marriage over the religious life, he is talking about ordained religious who have been religious for many years and then on a whim leave the convent for a sinful pleasure.

I think you need to be careful about comparing the God-ordained call to marriage with hell (the state of the soul that has torn itself out of Jesus’ arms and is in eternal separation from God). Do you think that people who believe they are called to marriage are damning themselves? Do you think marriage is eternal separation from God? Because that’s what you’re implying, even if you didn’t mean that.

And what about those couples that have been married faithfully, love each other and love God, and have raised children to love God as well? Do you think they “have a problem with concupiscence, or who, because they knew no better, have already entered into it”? What about your own parents? What about the parents of the saints? Hm?

And seriously, consider the number of people who are currently living out a religious vocation. They had parents. Did those parents also act out of concupiscence? You wouldn’t have any priests and nuns without their parents (the majority of which obvioulsy loved God and raised their children well, if their children decided to dedicate their lives so completely to God).

What you present here is a very distorted world view – your ideal is a Church without marriage, and therefore, without children. Your ideal Church would come to a grinding halt in just about a hundred years for lack of population.

I’m not trying to be a jerk, I’m just trying to point out some grave error in your line of thought and the terrible implications it has for the rest of us.

 

[JReducation]

Shin, I respectfully but strongly disagree. Let’s pretend everyone was perfect, according to your standards. Everyone would dedicate their lives to becoming a religious; nobody would let “passions” force them into marriage, which is abominably inferior in your opinion.

There was actually a group of people in the 1700s who believed this and tried it. They were called the Shakers. Guess what happened to them – they died out a long time ago because they couldn’t have children!

I know what you’re trying to say; you strongly support religious vocation and this is great. There is definitely a spiritual advantage in it which consists in single-mindedness and being able to serve God without distraction. But don’t you think it’s even more of a marvel to see a married person who has distraction thrown at them from every side, yet is able to serve God with interior recollection and love Him whole heartedly?

I think you need to acknowledge that some people are CALLED to marriage as a vocation. Why would Jesus have established it as a sacrament otherwise? “Yeah, you don’t want to go this route, it’s definitely inferior and is only for people who can’t control themselves, but I think I’ll just give it My stamp of approval and blessing and grace anyway.” No! Jesus doesn’t contradict Himself.

Please continue to support the call to religious life; the Church needs a lot of people who are so zealously committed to it. But the Church also needs people who are committed to strong, Christ-centered marriages that raise up strong Catholic children in this bleak, dark world where the ideals of marriage have all but flown to the wind and divorce is just as common as fornication and the like.

I think you are misinterpreting St. Bernard’s quote; he is not talking about people who discern that they are called to marriage, who choose marriage over the religious life, he is talking about ordained religious who have been religious for many years and then on a whim leave the convent for a sinful pleasure.

I think you need to be careful about comparing the God-ordained call to marriage with hell (the state of the soul that has torn itself out of Jesus’ arms and is in eternal separation from God). Do you think that people who believe they are called to marriage are damning themselves? Do you think marriage is eternal separation from God? Because that’s what you’re implying, even if you didn’t mean that.

And what about those couples that have been married faithfully, love each other and love God, and have raised children to love God as well? Do you think they “have a problem with concupiscence, or who, because they knew no better, have already entered into it”? What about your own parents? What about the parents of the saints? Hm?

And seriously, consider the number of people who are currently living out a religious vocation. They had parents. Did those parents also act out of concupiscence? You wouldn’t have any priests and nuns without their parents (the majority of which obvioulsy loved God and raised their children well, if their children decided to dedicate their lives so completely to God).

What you present here is a very distorted world view – your ideal is a Church without marriage, and therefore, without children. Your ideal Church would come to a grinding halt in just about a hundred years for lack of population.

I’m not trying to be a jerk, I’m just trying to point out some grave error in your line of thought and the terrible implications it has for the rest of us.

I support your ideas on marriage. Yes, it is a sacrament that Jesus instituted to give grace, not just to legalize concupicence.

I believe that where Shin has misunderstood the doctrine of the Church on religious life is here:

1. Religious life is distinct from the sacraments. It is a life consecrated to God by vows, lived in community, dedicated to the observance of the Gospel according to the charism of the religious family.
2. The religious by his or her profession of vows consecrates himself or herself to live exclusively for Christ and in Christ. Therefore, he steps outside of the secular world and its temptations and other distractions that are not sinful, but remain distractions.

In conclusion, the Church teaches that this form of life is the most noble form of Christian life.

However, there are other things to be considered.

1. Most people are called to the sacramental life of marriage or the sacrament of holy orders. Neither of these are part of religious life. When the Church speaks of religious life, she’s not talking about priests. She’s talking abour consecrated brothers and nuns. This small group has been called to this way of life.
2. Let’s consider why that is. First, if everyone were called, the human race would come to an abrupt end. Second, not everyone receives the same gifts. Third, God calls us to that form of life where we can find salvation.

In conclusion, even though religious life is the most noble form of Christian life, it does not mean that everyone is invited to it. Nor does it mean that the priesthood or married life do not lead to God. They may be more difficult paths to follow than religious life, but they lead to salvation just the same.

In the end, salvation depends on how one uses one’s gift. This is what Bernard was talking about. Those who have received the gift and have thrownit away are in grave danger. He was talking to religious. Had he been talking to married people or to priests, he would have said the same thing. If you throw away the gift, you are in grave danger. It is not the price of the value of the gift that saves, but the proper use.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[dove51]

In the past year and a half, I have felt as though I have a call to religious life. I’ve been drawn to one community in particular within the past 6 months, but because of a problem, I’ve fallen out of discernment with them. I don’t feel called to them anymore. I actually started really feeling drawn to the Franciscan Sisters of the Renewal and I really want to go and do a “Come and See” weekend.

However, in the past 2 weeks, I have had a really strong desire for marriage. It’s so strong that I wonder if I should start dating to check into it further. I’ve dated before, but the men were not practicing Catholics, and I know a very faithful Catholic who told me he was drawn to marriage, and I have an attraction to him. If I dated someone, I would consider dating him.

I don’t have a meeting with my spiritual director until July 8th, and I’m probably going to have to reschedule it because of a job offer that I might get and I have to attend some meetings. I don’t know what to do. I certainly don’t want to start dating without the advice of my spiritual director, and I feel like I should pray about it. I would hate to start dating and have it go farther and I ignore a call to religious life, but then I wonder if dating would make the call to religious life stronger?

Have any of you felt called to be married AND to be a religious? What did you do about it?

Agh, I know exactly what you mean! I feel a pull towards both vocations, and both are so strong. I am very frustrated with myself, because I cannot seem to make up my own mind about it, much less find out what God wants me to do. I am just praying every day that God will tell me which He wants of me. It’s been very hard and probably will continue to be, but I don’t know what else to do but pray and wait.

Any married or religious here, how did you know for sure what God wanted of you?

 

[LilFranciscan25]

I believe that what I experienced was just a temptation to run away from my vocation. I have spent much time in Mass and Adoration since then, and it’s obvious that I am still called to religious life. I got in a rut when I wrote my OP, and have since come out of it. Married life is really beautiful, but it’s not where God is calling me.

I think when we are struggling between both, like I was, I think it’s really important to step back and ask God for His help. He revealed to me that my desire to be married would be fulfilled through religious life but if I got married, my desire for religious life would not be fulfilled. I have come to understand this, recently, and I am taking the supernatural calling. I don’t believe I could be happier any other way.

 

[joanofarc143130]

I support your ideas on marriage. Yes, it is a sacrament that Jesus instituted to give grace, not just to legalize concupicence.

I believe that where Shin has misunderstood the doctrine of the Church on religious life is here:

1. Religious life is distinct from the sacraments. It is a life consecrated to God by vows, lived in community, dedicated to the observance of the Gospel according to the charism of the religious family.
2. The religious by his or her profession of vows consecrates himself or herself to live exclusively for Christ and in Christ. Therefore, he steps outside of the secular world and its temptations and other distractions that are not sinful, but remain distractions.

In conclusion, the Church teaches that this form of life is the most noble form of Christian life.

However, there are other things to be considered.

1. Most people are called to the sacramental life of marriage or the sacrament of holy orders. Neither of these are part of religious life. When the Church speaks of religious life, she’s not talking about priests. She’s talking abour consecrated brothers and nuns. This small group has been called to this way of life.
2. Let’s consider why that is. First, if everyone were called, the human race would come to an abrupt end. Second, not everyone receives the same gifts. Third, God calls us to that form of life where we can find salvation.

In conclusion, even though religious life is the most noble form of Christian life, it does not mean that everyone is invited to it. Nor does it mean that the priesthood or married life do not lead to God. They may be more difficult paths to follow than religious life, but they lead to salvation just the same.

In the end, salvation depends on how one uses one’s gift. This is what Bernard was talking about. Those who have received the gift and have thrownit away are in grave danger. He was talking to religious. Had he been talking to married people or to priests, he would have said the same thing. If you throw away the gift, you are in grave danger. It is not the price of the value of the gift that saves, but the proper use.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Thank you for your thoughts. Yes, I did fail to make the distinction between the priesthood and the religious life, I apologize. I think that everyone should try to understand the “benefits” and struggles of each vocation regardless of what they are called to do. Each one can be deeply fulfilling if entered into properly. I also believe that no one should judge others for their vocation. God made each of us with different capabilities, and as you said before, not all are invited to any specific vocation. I do not like when some people choose to assume arrogance because “God has called me to a higher vocation than you, therefore I have more spiritual capability than you.” That automatically fails the fundamental idea of vocation: everyone is called to a vocation of love!

I love your thoughts on salvation in regards to vocation. I must admit I’m rather new to thinking this deeply about vocation, but I’ve never heard this before and I completely agree with your statement that “It is not the price of the value of the gift that saves, but the proper use.” I will remember that as I study vocations! A few of my friends are considering convent life and I’ll pass that thought along to them. Thanks and God bless!

 

[JReducation]

Thank you for your thoughts. Yes, I did fail to make the distinction between the priesthood and the religious life, I apologize. I think that everyone should try to understand the “benefits” and struggles of each vocation regardless of what they are called to do. Each one can be deeply fulfilling if entered into properly. I also believe that no one should judge others for their vocation. God made each of us with different capabilities, and as you said before, not all are invited to any specific vocation. I do not like when some people choose to assume arrogance because “God has called me to a higher vocation than you, therefore I have more spiritual capability than you.” That automatically fails the fundamental idea of vocation: everyone is called to a vocation of love!

I love your thoughts on salvation in regards to vocation. I must admit I’m rather new to thinking this deeply about vocation, but I’ve never heard this before and I completely agree with your statement that “It is not the price of the value of the gift that saves, but the proper use.” I will remember that as I study vocations! A few of my friends are considering convent life and I’ll pass that thought along to them. Thanks and God bless!

You’re most welcome. A thought that comes to mind when trying to explain the doctrine on religious life as the highest calling are the vocations of Mary and Peter. Mary is the epitome of religious life. She is consecrated to live in the incarnational mystery of God. She assents to God’s call to live for him and to serve him in a very specific manner. She is to be His mother. His bride. His sister in creation. His daughter and she is to live the life not for anyone else, but for Him. There is a covenant between Mary and God. That is what the religious makes, a covenant with God. The the profession of vows the Church tells the religious:

“If you observe all these things, I promise you eternal life.” This is actually written in the missal into the rite of religious profession of sisters and brothers. These words are not present in any other ritual: ordination or marriage. The Church does not guarrantee clergy or married people eternal life. To understand why not, we must look at Peter.

Peter’s call (vocation) is to the priesthood of Jesus Christ. Christ hands him the sacraments to govern and administer to others. He also hands him the keys to the Kingdom and the power to bind and unbind. Finally, he gives Peter his staff, the staff of the Good Shepherd.

Christ calls Peter to serve, to minister, to save souls. He does not dictate to Peter a way of life. Peter is to follow the same way of life as any other disciple of Christ. However, his work among the followers of Christ is unique. He is a priest.

Notice that this is not Mary’s call. She is not called to DO something. She is called to BE someone: mother, daughter, sister, and bride. Mary is called to a way of life. Peter is called to a ministry.

The difference between the priesthood and religious life is the difference between Peter and Mary. Both calls lead to salvation.

The call to marriage or to the single life are also different. But I won’t discuss them on this post, because I don’t want to take the attention away from the priesthood and religious life. On another post, I’ll speak about single and married.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[DevotedChild]

Yeah I know what you mean. I was called to both but yesterday in prayer he revealed to me that my vocation was the religious life. Now, with that in mind, I want to visit communities but I am still to young to really do that plus I haven’t even got my license yet even though I am 16.

To those still discerning, the way the Christ spoke to me was through the Rosary. Mary brought Him to me and then he spoke to my heart. So that would be my suggestion to you people, is to pray the Rosary as part of your prayer life. If that doesn’t help then God is talking to you in a different manner. Good Luck! Keep your eyes and ears open!