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Vince1022
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Thanks. What did it say about John the Baptist? Or the Immaculate Conception?
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sungirl
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Sorry my post was a little unclear; I meant the Immaculate Conception. I don’t want to paraphrase, so here’s a pertinent section that really helped me:
"Assuming an Evangelical definition, the Immaculate Conception would entail God’s reaching down and making Mary almost God-like, in contrast to the rest of humanity.
But what Catholics mean by the Immaculate Conception is that Mary was given the gift of fellowship with God from the very beginning of her life in the womb. She experienced God’s grace her whole life. Most Catholics have this communion with God restored at infant baptism. Because of Mary’s close fellowship with God, he enabled her to live her entire life without sinning. This does not mean Mary did not need a Savior. Like all of humanity, both before and after the Cross, she was redeemed by the precious Blood of her Son." That’s from p. 171 of the book.
I’m not sure how or whether that pertains to John too. I’ve never thought about John versus Mary in the womb, so I don’t have any insights there.
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sungirl
Guest
Although I have no personal insight about the John the Baptist, I did find this interesting apologist answer: forum.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=174711
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Chatter163
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As I clearly stated above, the Church does not teach this. However, the notion that John was cleansed from sin at the Visitation has a long and pious history behind it. A simple Google reveals that.
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Vince1022
Guest
Thanks. While long and pious histories are likely interesting, I’m primarily interested in Catholicism. I figured as the point was first raised by someone identified as Catholic, and we’re on a Catholic Answers Forum, there might be some Catholic basis to this claim.
Thanks again.
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PJM
Guest
Hi, just-me,
The problemis that we areunable to think as God does
Isa.55 Verses 8-9 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, says the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.”
Your sefl-anayalsis is Right On the mark. If we disagree with something the CC Teaches on matters of Faith or Morals; it’s due to our our lack of understanding; or perhaps in some cases, our own pride.
God can be briefly, but quite completely as: "God is ALL GOOD things; PERFECTED."
***God can ONLY be Good ***[all though He can and does permit evil so He can make Good come from it].
What we know about God is that in every Good way, God is, and God MUST be Perfect; so much so that no-one can enter heaven and into God’s Presence unless thy to have “been Perfected.” [Thus the need for Purgatory.]
Rev. 21: 27 “But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”
No, I’m not off topic here. The ISSUE of Perfection is the piece missing from your understanding of this Dogma.
Exodus Chapt. 25:8-20 [God speaking] And let them make me a sanctuary, that I may dwell in their midst. According to all that I show you concerning the pattern of the tabernacle, and of all its furniture, so you shall make it. “They shall make an ark of acacia wood; two cubits and a half shall be its length, a cubit and a half its breadth, and a cubit and a half its height. ***And you shall overlay it with pure gold, within and without shall you overlay it, and you shall make upon it a molding of gold round about. ***[12] **And you shall cast four rings of gold for it **and put them on its four feet, two rings on the one side of it, and two rings on the other side of it.You shall make poles of acacia wood, and **overlay them with gold. **[14] And you shall put the poles into the rings on the sides of the ark, to carry the ark by them. The poles shall remain in the rings of the ark; they shall not be taken from it. And you shall put into the ark the testimony which I shall give you. Then you shall make a mercy seat of pure gold; two cubits and a half shall be its length, and a cubit and a half its breadth. And **you shall make two cherubim of gold; **of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece with the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends.
The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be”
Take note of the following FACTS.
The design, size and materials were dictated by God Himself
Not the extensive use of REFINED - Pure gold and Gold demanded by God
The Ark was built as a REMINDER of God’s “Spiritual Presence” in there midst; NOT God Himself!
Becaue God is Perfect; God insist on Perfection of all those who associate with Him: Anels and Saints are Perfected!
Knowing that God insist on perfection; could, would God Allow His ONLY SON to issue forth froma human vessel, not made Perfect? IMPOSSIBLE!
Jesus Christ; true and Competely God, and true and completely human; simply could not be born; not be carried for 9 months in the womb of a sinner! For God this IS A IMPOSSIBILITY! Could not happen. How could a Perfect God be born from an imperfect
Mother. IMPOSSIBLE!
Mary; was WILLINGLY and FREELY predisposed to not sin in ANY MANNER! This was a SINGULAR GIFT of God; for Mary’s Fiat; Mary’s constant “yes Lord” DO WITH ME AS
You Will!..
READ: Luke 1:34-55…
Only the Perfect CAN make another Perfect; and God did just that in accorance to His Will and in Conformity to Mary’s will.
God can do ANY Good Thing; what God did for and with Mary was and is spectularlly Good! Spectularlly PERFECT!
God Bless,
Pat
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Robert_Burns
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Not from Original Sin.
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Robert_Burns
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It would appear from the gist of many of these posts I am readin - that many of you do not understand the meaning of Original Sin, and its impact and significance.Sorry my post was a little unclear; I meant the Immaculate Conception. I don’t want to paraphrase, so here’s a pertinent section that really helped me:
"Assuming an Evangelical definition, the Immaculate Conception would entail God’s reaching down and making Mary almost God-like, in contrast to the rest of humanity.
But what Catholics mean by the Immaculate Conception is that Mary was given the gift of fellowship with God from the very beginning of her life in the womb. She experienced God’s grace her whole life. Most Catholics have this communion with God restored at infant baptism. Because of Mary’s close fellowship with God, he enabled her to live her entire life without sinning. This does not mean Mary did not need a Savior. Like all of humanity, both before and after the Cross, she was redeemed by the precious Blood of her Son." That’s from p. 171 of the book.
I’m not sure how or whether that pertains to John too. I’ve never thought about John versus Mary in the womb, so I don’t have any insights there.
Mary was preserved from both the Guilt and Stain of Original Sin. Because she was - she likewise was preserved from the punishments and faults due to that sin. Ie the Propensity to sin. These traits are all a sign of the Guilt and Stain of the Sin of Adam. Since the blessed Virgin Mary was preserved from the Guilt and Stain of Orignial Sin she likewsie was exempt from the punishments due.
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area52
Guest
You are correct that when God created Adam and Eve, they were both sinless. However, after the temptations, they both became sinful and their generations after them are all sinful, including Mary. Mary was not conceived and born ‘immaculate’ from sin. If Mary was sinless, she would not need a ‘savior’ when she say "my spirit rejoices in God mySavior" (Luke1:47).
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area52
Guest
Can we agree that God can do the IMPOSSIBLE?Hi, just-me,
The problemis that we areunable to think as God does
Isa.55 Verses 8-9 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, says the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.”
Your sefl-anayalsis is Right On the mark. If we disagree with something the CC Teaches on matters of Faith or Morals; it’s due to our our lack of understanding; or perhaps in some cases, our own pride.
God can be briefly, but quite completely as: "God is ALL GOOD things; PERFECTED."
***God can ONLY be Good ***[all though He can and does permit evil so He can make Good come from it].
What we know about God is that in every Good way, God is, and God MUST be Perfect; so much so that no-one can enter heaven and into God’s Presence unless thy to have “been Perfected.” [Thus the need for Purgatory.]
Rev. 21: 27 “But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”
No, I’m not off topic here. The ISSUE of Perfection is the piece missing from your understanding of this Dogma.
Exodus Chapt. 25:8-20 [God speaking] And let them make me a sanctuary, that I may dwell in their midst. According to all that I show you concerning the pattern of the tabernacle, and of all its furniture, so you shall make it. “They shall make an ark of acacia wood; two cubits and a half shall be its length, a cubit and a half its breadth, and a cubit and a half its height. ***And you shall overlay it with pure gold, within and without shall you overlay it, and you shall make upon it a molding of gold round about. ***[12] **And you shall cast four rings of gold for it **and put them on its four feet, two rings on the one side of it, and two rings on the other side of it.You shall make poles of acacia wood, and **overlay them with gold. **[14] And you shall put the poles into the rings on the sides of the ark, to carry the ark by them. The poles shall remain in the rings of the ark; they shall not be taken from it. And you shall put into the ark the testimony which I shall give you. Then you shall make a mercy seat of pure gold; two cubits and a half shall be its length, and a cubit and a half its breadth. And **you shall make two cherubim of gold; **of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece with the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends.
The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be”
Take note of the following FACTS.
The design, size and materials were dictated by God Himself
Not the extensive use of REFINED - Pure gold and Gold demanded by God
The Ark was built as a REMINDER of God’s “Spiritual Presence” in there midst; NOT God Himself!
Becaue God is Perfect; God insist on Perfection of all those who associate with Him: Anels and Saints are Perfected!
Knowing that God insist on perfection; could, would God Allow His ONLY SON to issue forth froma human vessel, not made Perfect? IMPOSSIBLE!
Jesus Christ; true and Competely God, and true and completely human; simply could not be born; not be carried for 9 months in the womb of a sinner! For God this IS A IMPOSSIBILITY! Could not happen. How could a Perfect God be born from an imperfect
Mother. IMPOSSIBLE!
Mary; was WILLINGLY and FREELY predisposed to not sin in ANY MANNER! This was a SINGULAR GIFT of God; for Mary’s Fiat; Mary’s constant “yes Lord” DO WITH ME AS
You Will!..
READ: Luke 1:34-55…
Only the Perfect CAN make another Perfect; and God did just that in accorance to His Will and in Conformity to Mary’s will.
God can do ANY Good Thing; what God did for and with Mary was and is spectularlly Good! Spectularlly PERFECT!
God Bless,
Pat
If God can rise the dead, heal the leper, heal the blind, create new limbs, He can also have His son be born of a sinner.
If a surrogate mother has been implanted in her womb a fertilized egg from parents wanting a child, it does not make the surrogate mother be the real mother.
The surrogate mothers womb was just the vessel used for the baby to grow.
This is what God did as He chose Mary to carry Jesus. Mary was favored by God to bear Jesus not because she is sinless, but because ‘nothing is impossible’ from what God can do- Luke1:37 “For nothing is impossible with God.”
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FCEGM
Guest
OTC, she rightly calls Him her Savior because His saving action was at the moment of her conception whereas He saves us from Original Sin and Actual Sin post-birth. If He by His grace prevents me from committing a sin before I commit it, He is just as much my Savior as when He forgives me my sins post-facto.
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Robert_Burns
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The Immaculate Conception is The Dogma that the Virgin Mary was conceived free from all stain of original sin and has been defined infallibly from the Chair of St Peter by Pope Pius the IX in the Encyclical “Ineffabilis Deus” De Fide.
I hope you are not Catholic because this post is heretical.
If you are - get thee to a confessional.
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Robert_Burns
Guest
The Blessed Virgin Mary was Concieved without the Stain or Guilt of Original Sin , But she still had free will and thus had to be asked by the Angel. Therefore - she theoretically could make the same mistake that Adam and Eve did. She was in need of Salvation just as we all are. But the fact that her entire life was spent focusing on doing the will of GOD and there is not a single reference to a single Sin - and since she has been honored by GOD and the CHURCH ever since her time on Earth - the evidence is in. Denial of Marian Devotion is to not pay attention.
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FCEGM
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I totally agree, Robert; I don’t think I said or implied anything less.
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Robert_Burns
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Yes - Great postsI totally agree, Robert; I don’t think I said or implied anything less.
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FCEGM
Guest
Thank you, Robert.
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area52
Guest
Can you enligthen me as to your definition and meaning of original sin?
Also, why would she and Joseph go to the tabernacle to present two turtledove as a burn offering and a sin offering if she was sinless (Luke2:22-24) as in accord with the Jewish law in Leviticus12:6-7 after giving birth to Jesus as an atonement for her by the priest?
Like everyone else (the decendant of Adam and Eve) are all sinful, including Mary.
Paul wrote -Rom 3:10 There is **no one **righteous, not even one;
Rom 3:11 there is no one who understands, **no one **who seeks God.
Rom 3:12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is **no one **who does good, not even one."
If Mary is said to be holy, Paul would had mentioned her.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Why did Jesus allow Himself to be baptized by John–a baptism which was for repentence–which John himself said, “you come to me to be baptized when I should be baptized by YOU?” Answer: (from Jesus Himself): 'to fulfill the LAW."
Mary brought the offering to fulfill the law–not because she was personally guilty of sin and ‘needed’ to do so, but in order to fulfill the law’s ‘requirement’.
Also St. Paul is paraphrasing Psalm 14. . .which also states that there is ‘no one righteous’ yet goes on to have God say that these 'unrighteous ‘"eat up my people as though they were eating bread’.
Hmmm, looks like God’s people (whom God promises to PROTECT from the EVILDOERS) are not the SAME people as those ‘all have sinned’, doesn’t it now???
Also, Jesus is fully human. . .not some ‘half-breed’ like a pagan ‘demigod’. . .so if St. Paul means "all humans have sinned’ well guess what, he’d be condemning Jesus as well. Does St. Paul say, “All --save our Lord–have sinned?” He doesn’t, does he? Obviously St. Paul, just like the psalmist, recognizes that ‘all’ does not mean ‘every single human person’!
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PJM
Guest
That friend is a differnt take: One neither Biblically founded or taught by the CC…
NO Comprimises and No innovations beyound those worked by God THROUGH Mary
Luke.1 Verses 26 to 35
In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. And he came to her and said, “Hail, O favored one, the Lord is with you!” [OFTEN TRANSLATED AS ["Hail FULL OF GRACE… full of Grace maeans NO room for sin…PJM] But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and considered in her mind what sort of greeting this might be. And the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid,** Mary, for you have found favor with God. **[And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, **and you shall call his name Jesus. [32] He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High;… And Mary said to the angel, “How shall this be, since I have no husband?” * And the angel said to her, "The Holy Spirit [WHO IS GOD] will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you;therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God".
***Jesus is GodMary is the Mother of Jesus
THUS Mary Is THEE Mother of God…Amen!***
God bless, Pat*
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PJM
Guest
It is neither doctrine nor dogma; BUT is is a Part of our SACRED TRADITION… Thus it is to held as the truth it is…
What is left out hre is the differene between Mary and John is an issue of timming:
MARY WAS CONCEIVED WITHOUT SIN AND REMAINED SINLESS
John the Baptist was Born IN SIN; but while in the womb of his mother was purified FROM SIN at the moment “he lept for joy in the womb” in the introduction to the infant Jesus.
BOTH REMAINED SINLESS THROUGH OUT THERE LIFES BY GRACE AND PERSONAL CHOICES…
God Bless,
Pat
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