Struggleing with the Immaculate Conception

[justme]

You must remember that Grace builds upon Grace (see the Parable of the Talents). Mary throughout her life obeyed God, and so, Grace building upon Grace, her strength in holiness was built up. The same with John the Baptist.

We each have that potential. Mary struggled just as we do, but chose to cooperate throughout her life with the Grace that was given her.

It is true that since Mary received the Grace of Baptism from the first moment of her existence, she did not have concupiscence. A lot of people think concupiscence means “the ability to sin.” That is a very popular misconception. Concupiscence is actually defined as the disordered use of reason. Not having concupiscence does not mean one loses the free will to sin. Remember that Adam and Eve were likewise created without concupiscence, but sinned nevertheless. So not having concupiscence does not mean one will not experience temptations, and thus struggle.

I hope that helps.

Blessings,
Marduk

Thank you Marduk,
This post has been most helpful.

God Bless,
justme

 

[area52]

Why did Jesus allow Himself to be baptized by John–a baptism which was for repentence–which John himself said, “you come to me to be baptized when I should be baptized by YOU?” Answer: (from Jesus Himself): 'to fulfill the LAW."

wrong. it has nothing to do about the LAW.

From CCC#1224 Our Lord voluntarily submitted himself to the baptism of St. John, intended for sinners, in order to “fulfill all righteousness.” Jesus’ gesture is a manifestation of his self-emptying. The Spirit who had hovered over the waters of the first creation descended then on the Christ as a prelude of the new creation, and the Father revealed Jesus as his “beloved Son.”

Mary brought the offering to fulfill the law–not because she was personally guilty of sin and ‘needed’ to do so, but in order to fulfill the law’s ‘requirement’.

wrong… she gave birth to Jesus. Because of giving birth, per Leviticus12:5 she is ‘unclean’ and would require an atonement.

Also St. Paul is paraphrasing Psalm 14. . .which also states that there is ‘no one righteous’ yet goes on to have God say that these 'unrighteous ‘"eat up my people as though they were eating bread’.

Hmmm, looks like God’s people (whom God promises to PROTECT from the EVILDOERS) are not the SAME people as those ‘all have sinned’, doesn’t it now???

wrong again… Psalm14 is about people that does not believed in God. David call them ‘fools’. Read some commentary on Psalm14

Also, Jesus is fully human. . .not some ‘half-breed’ like a pagan ‘demigod’. . .so if St. Paul means "all humans have sinned’ well guess what, he’d be condemning Jesus as well. Does St. Paul say, “All --save our Lord–have sinned?” He doesn’t, does he? Obviously St. Paul, just like the psalmist, recognizes that ‘all’ does not mean ‘every single human person’!

wrong again. Jesus is fully GOD and at the same time fully man BUT never sin.
Everyone is a sinner EXCEPT JESUS.

 

[Robert_Burns]

Can you enligthen me as to your definition and meaning of original sin?

Robert : Sure :
oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Immaculate_Conception

oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Original_Sin

Robert : You dont have to go far - the definitions are available at the top of the Page in the Encyclopedia

Also, why would she and Joseph go to the tabernacle to present two turtledove as a burn offering and a sin offering if she was sinless (Luke2:22-24) as in accord with the Jewish law in Leviticus12:6-7 after giving birth to Jesus as an atonement for her by the priest?

Robert : Because if she didnt - she would have sinned against Jewish law that required it. Since she never sinned - she complied.

Like everyone else (the decendant of Adam and Eve) are all sinful, including Mary.
Paul wrote -Rom 3:10 There is **no one **righteous, not even one;

Robert: Jesus as well? Then you open an entire Theological Can of Worms by denial of the Hypostatic Union , the First Holy Gospel according to St John - The Third Ecumenical Council that Condemned Nestorius and defined Theotokos - Placing GOD under the yoke of Sin or denial that JESUS is GOD thus a denial of the Holy Trinity Etc Etc Etc. St Paul was speaking about "everyone " with the obvious exception of Jesus and Mary and for obvious reasons. Your exegesis is weak. You forget that in Scripture this has an allegorical precedent. In the Book of Esther Chapter 15 : 11 And God changed the king’s spirit into mildness, and all in haste and in fear he leaped from his throne, and holding her up in his arms, till she came to herself, caressed her with these words: [12] What is the matter, Esther? I am thy brother, fear not. [13] Thou shalt not die: for this law is not made for thee, but for all others.

Was not the law made for ALL Jews and Esther being one? Why did the King make an Exception for Esther? And you in your exegesis refuse to make an exception for The Blessed Virgin Mary the Mother of GOD Herself as Defined “Theotokos” at the Third Ecumenical Church Council accepted by both east and west?

Rom 3:11 there is no one who understands, **no one **who seeks God.
Rom 3:12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is **no one **who does good, not even one."

If Mary is said to be holy, Paul would had mentioned her.

So would have King Assuerus had Esther killed through your same logic.

Neither Jesus nor Mary is under the yoke of Original Sin and thus the law for EVERYONE applies to everyone other than they.

 

[area52]

In the Book of Esther Chapter 15 : 11 And God changed the king’s spirit into mildness, and all in haste and in fear he leaped from his throne, and holding her up in his arms, till she came to herself, caressed her with these words: [12] What is the matter, Esther? I am thy brother, fear not. [13] Thou shalt not die: for this law is not made for thee, but for all others

So would have King Assuerus had Esther killed through your same logic.

Neither Jesus nor Mary is under the yoke of Original Sin and thus the law for EVERYONE applies to everyone other than they.

My bible does not have Esther chapter 15. It is another addition in the Catholic bible.
The book of Esther in my bible ends in chapter 10.

 

[Robert_Burns]

My bible does not have Esther chapter 15. It is another addition in the Catholic bible.
The book of Esther in my bible ends in chapter 10.

history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct04.html

The Fourth Session of the Council of Trent in April of 1546 defined the Sacred Latin Vulgate as Free from Error - that Latin Vulgate has Esther Chapters 1 - 16 and at that point in time - The Latin Vulgate was 1,166 years old !!!

The oldest Christian Bibles in existence today (Codex Vaticanus, dating from the first half of the fourth century; Codex Sinaiticus, dating from the fourth century, Codex Alexandrinus, belonging to the fifth century, and the Codex Ephraemi, also belonging to the fifth century) contain all the books of the Old and New Testaments, just as we find them in our Catholic Bibles today.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

My bible does not have Esther chapter 15. It is another addition in the Catholic bible.
The book of Esther in my bible ends in chapter 10.

You need to learn the history of the Bible. It is not an addition it is a subtraction.

The protestant Bible is missing books and chapters of some books from the Old Testament that were cut out of it by Luther, Catholics added nothing.

As Robert says above, it was the Catholic Church that gave us the Bible. The Bible is a product of the Church, not the other way around.

 

[kitkatty]

Right Byz Cath, the Bible is the product of the Church and not the other way around. This is why when non-Catholics attempt exegesis of Scripture they usually end up being wrong because they are trying to seperate Scripture from the Church from which it was given, or maybe I should say they reject the Church from which it came.

 

[InspiritCarol]

wrong. it has nothing to do about the LAW.

From CCC#1224 Our Lord voluntarily submitted himself to the baptism of St. John, intended for sinners, in order to “fulfill all righteousness.” Jesus’ gesture is a manifestation of his self-emptying. The Spirit who had hovered over the waters of the first creation descended then on the Christ as a prelude of the new creation, and the Father revealed Jesus as his “beloved Son.”

Ahh. THAT’s why I love the Catechism. The Church Fathers were SO wise and able to say things so much better then we can. Thank you for sharing this.

But, ultimately, if you open your heart, you would see that the spirit remains the same. Now, if you got a speeding ticket but you weren’t speeding would you go to court anyway? Of course! IN just the same way, Mary is convicted by her peers as having been with child, and now having … well … child. Get it? She is a good Jew and does her duty as is expected of every new mother. Really, it is silly to debate these specifics. It detracts us from the larger message of the salvation of Humankind through the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Why do you hate Mary so? What makes you so much wiser than thousands of years of theologians INCLUDING Martin Luther and Calvin? Do you REALLY think they didn’t do their homework?

wrong… she gave birth to Jesus. Because of giving birth, per Leviticus12:5 she is ‘unclean’ and would require an atonement.

Hmm… Now you KNOW how God was born? You would really cast aspersions on our Lord this way? He did not cause his mother to sin. SHAME on you.

wrong again… Psalm14 is about people that does not believed in God. David call them ‘fools’. Read some commentary on Psalm14

(Aren’t you sweet?) You aren’t connecting the full picture here. Paul quotes scripture. Jesus quotes scripture. And thanks to the fact that there was no TV, the people he was speaking to KNEW scripture from just a few words. Like in today’s society we would say: you know the one about the … whatever.

wrong again. Jesus is fully GOD and at the same time fully man BUT never sin.
Everyone is a sinner EXCEPT JESUS.

Hallelujah! Yes. I THINK, that was his point. Not a sinner SO “all” is IN context, not made into whatever suits your needs.

 

[area52]

Also, Jesus is fully human. . .not some ‘half-breed’ like a pagan ‘demigod’. . .so if St. Paul means "all humans have sinned’ well guess what, he’d be condemning Jesus as well. Does St. Paul say, “All --save our Lord–have sinned?” He doesn’t, does he? Obviously St. Paul, just like the psalmist, recognizes that ‘all’ does not mean ‘every single human person’!

You have a mis-understanding of what Paul wrote in Roman3:10-18.
Paul quoted from Psalm14 with the statement “As it is written” to tell the roman jews of God condemnation. This is a condemnation from God on the heart of man that there are no one who seeks Him. You can not include Jesus in the same statement you wrote. You have to read the whole book of Romans to fully understand what Paul wrote.

You can not include Jesus with the rest of human kind.

Psa 14:2 The Lord looks down from heaven on the sons of men to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God.
Psa 14:3 All have turned aside, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.

Rom 3:10 As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one;
Rom 3:11 there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.
Rom 3:12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”
Rom 3:13 “Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit.” “The poison of vipers is on their lips.”
Rom 3:14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”
Rom 3:15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
Rom 3:16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
Rom 3:17 and the way of peace they do not know.”
Rom 3:18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

 

[Monica4316]

I need some help.

I believe all that the Church Teaches. I realize that when I have a “disagreement” with something the Church Teaches it is usually a misunderstanding on my part.

I have trouble with the Immaculate Conception and the sinless Mary. I believe in them as the Church Teaches but I am having trouble understanding them.

How can Mary be like us when she was sinless? Does not the Immaculate Conception make Mary different than us? How can I “go to” Mary when she is so different than us?

Can anyone help me on this? Is there something I should read that might help?

Thanks!

Think of it this way… were Adam and Eve less human before the fall? Of course not Mary is as they were before the fall - sinless. This was an act of grace from God… she was also saved by Christ, because of the Cross (retroactively), only at a different time: at her conception. This was so that Christ would not be dishonoured receving His human nature from her.

Hope that helps… God bless

 

[Vince1022]

It is neither doctrine nor dogma; BUT is is a Part of our SACRED TRADITION… Thus it is to held as the truth it is…

What is left out hre is the differene between Mary and John is an issue of timming:

MARY WAS CONCEIVED WITHOUT SIN AND REMAINED SINLESS

John the Baptist was Born IN SIN; but while in the womb of his mother was purified FROM SIN at the moment “he lept for joy in the womb” in the introduction to the infant Jesus.

BOTH REMAINED SINLESS THROUGH OUT THERE LIFES BY GRACE AND PERSONAL CHOICES…

God Bless,
Pat

Thanks Pat, I understand your reference to Scripture, but is there any Catholic teaching (Catechism, etc.) that says John the Baptist was purified from sin (or whatever)?

No big deal, I was primarily responding to chatter163(? …is that right) who seems to have given up on this thread.

 

[area52]

Think of it this way… were Adam and Eve less human before the fall? Of course not Mary is as they were before the fall - sinless. This was an act of grace from God… she was also saved by Christ, because of the Cross (retroactively), only at a different time: at her conception. This was so that Christ would not be dishonoured receving His human nature from her.

Hope that helps… God bless

How can you include Mary as “like” Adam and Eve ‘before’ the fall? God only created 2 humans in Genesis which is Adam and Eve (no mention of Mary). All the rest of human is a decendant from Adam and Eve. Better yet, we are decendant of Noah and his children after the flood.

Also, you said that Christ ‘save’ her. To be SAVE, mean that she was not sinless. Even Mary stated that in her magnificat. She needed a savior (Luke1:46,47).

On the other hand, you are half correct on Christ retroactively saving grace. The people of the Old Testament saints believed on the coming messiah. They died and have gone to Abraham bosom (Luke16:19-31). When Jesus died, He descended down and brought (deliver) all the ‘saved’ believers (Old testament saints) up from the grave and into heaven. He emptied the place they were in.
Therefore, people who have died and who had believed in Jesus go directly to heaven as Paul said in 2Corinthian5:8 We are confident, , and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord

 

[Robert_Burns]

You need to learn the history of the Bible. It is not an addition it is a subtraction.

The protestant Bible is missing books and chapters of some books from the Old Testament that were cut out of it by Luther, Catholics added nothing.

As Robert says above, it was the Catholic Church that gave us the Bible. The Bible is a product of the Church, not the other way around.

Thank you Brother - Pax Vobiscum.

 

[Robert_Burns]

How can you include Mary as “like” Adam and Eve ‘before’ the fall? God only created 2 humans in Genesis which is Adam and Eve (no mention of Mary). All the rest of human is a decendant from Adam and Eve. Better yet, we are decendant of Noah and his children after the flood.

Also, you said that Christ ‘save’ her. To be SAVE, mean that she was not sinless. Even Mary stated that in her magnificat. She needed a savior (Luke1:46,47).

On the other hand, you are half correct on Christ retroactively saving grace. The people of the Old Testament saints believed on the coming messiah. They died and have gone to Abraham bosom (Luke16:19-31). When Jesus died, He descended down and brought (deliver) all the ‘saved’ believers (Old testament saints) up from the grave and into heaven. He emptied the place they were in.
Therefore, people who have died and who had believed in Jesus go directly to heaven as Paul said in 2Corinthian5:8 We are confident, , and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord

From the Chair of St Peter - De Fide: Ineffabilius Deus and I Quote :

The Definition

Wherefore, in humility and fasting, we unceasingly offered our private prayers as well as the public prayers of the Church to God the Father through his Son, that he would deign to direct and strengthen our mind by the power of the Holy Spirit. In like manner did we implore the help of the entire heavenly host as we ardently invoked the Paraclete. Accordingly, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, for the honor of the Holy and undivided Trinity, for the glory and adornment of the Virgin Mother of God, for the exaltation of the Catholic Faith, and for the furtherance of the Catholic religion, by the authority of Jesus Christ our Lord, of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and by our own: “We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful.”[29]

Hence, if anyone shall dare – which God forbid! – to think otherwise than as has been defined by us, let him know and understand that he is condemned by his own judgment; that he has suffered shipwreck in the faith; that he has separated from the unity of the Church; and that, furthermore, by his own action he incurs the penalties established by law if he should are to express in words or writing or by any other outward means the errors he think in his heart.

Robert: Remember - I didnt Write these words - Pope Pius the IX did. As a Catholic - I dont Debate Dogma.

Rome has spoken the Case is closed.

Pax

 

[area52]

From the Chair of St Peter - De Fide: Ineffabilius Deus and I Quote :

The Definition

Wherefore, in humility and fasting, we unceasingly offered our private prayers as well as the public prayers of the Church to God the Father through his Son, that he would deign to direct and strengthen our mind by the power of the Holy Spirit. In like manner did we implore the help of the entire heavenly host as we ardently invoked the Paraclete. Accordingly, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, for the honor of the Holy and undivided Trinity, for the glory and adornment of the Virgin Mother of God, for the exaltation of the Catholic Faith, and for the furtherance of the Catholic religion, by the authority of Jesus Christ our Lord, of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and by our own: “We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful.”[29]

Hence, if anyone shall dare – which God forbid! – to think otherwise than as has been defined by us, let him know and understand that he is condemned by his own judgment; that he has suffered shipwreck in the faith; that he has separated from the unity of the Church; and that, furthermore, by his own action he incurs the penalties established by law if he should are to express in words or writing or by any other outward means the errors he think in his heart.

Robert: Remember - I didnt Write these words - Pope Pius the IX did. As a Catholic - I dont Debate Dogma.

Rome has spoken the Case is closed.

Pax

Are you pronouncing ANATHEMA to me?

I can only say thank you because Jesus said “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.” Mat 5:11

Jesus warned and said “For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ, and will deceive many.” Mat 24:5

and again Jesus said “I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins.” John 8:24

If you are placing your trust in the Catholic church teaching and ways for salvation, then may God have mercy on your soul.

 

[Robert_Burns]

Are you pronouncing ANATHEMA to me?

I can only say thank you because Jesus said “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.” Mat 5:11

Jesus warned and said “For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ, and will deceive many.” Mat 24:5

and again Jesus said “I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins.” John 8:24

If you are placing your trust in the Catholic church teaching and ways for salvation, then may God have mercy on your soul.

Am I or is Pope Pius the IX? Whose words are they?

So are you now saying that Pope Pius the IX was evil in exercising his Powers given him subsquently in Vatican I to Define Dogma?

And indeed - Jesus said that - so are you saying that POPE Pius the IX is DECIEVING MANY? Is that what you are claiming?

Are you then saying that POPE Pius the IX died in his sins? Or that I will by believing oin the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception?

Then you have the audacity to insult the Catholic Church in the Catholic answers forum? I will report you to the Moderator for this one

 

[area52]

Am I or is Pope Pius the IX? Whose words are they?

So are you now saying that Pope Pius the IX was evil in exercising his Powers given him subsquently in Vatican I to Define Dogma?

And indeed - Jesus said that - so are you saying that POPE Pius the IX is DECIEVING MANY? Is that what you are claiming?

Are you then saying that POPE Pius the IX died in his sins? Or that I will by believing oin the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception?

Then you have the audacity to insult the Catholic Church in the Catholic answers forum? I will report you to the Moderator for this one

Did not come from me… but from Jesus himself.

 

[Robert_Burns]

Did not come from me… but from Jesus himself.

No its coming from you. Your name is on it not His. You are claiming the Passages mean what YOU think they mean. That doesnt define the True Meaning of Scripture. You dont have the Lawful Authority to Dicern Scripture. Only the Church does.

2 Peter 1 : 16 through 21

 

[area52]

Am I or is Pope Pius the IX? Whose words are they?

So are you now saying that Pope Pius the IX was evil in exercising his Powers given him subsquently in Vatican I to Define Dogma?

And indeed - Jesus said that - so are you saying that POPE Pius the IX is DECIEVING MANY? Is that what you are claiming?

Are you then saying that POPE Pius the IX died in his sins? Or that I will by believing oin the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception?

Then you have the audacity to insult the Catholic Church in the Catholic answers forum? I will report you to the Moderator for this one

I did a quick search on Pope Pius IX and found that he started the dogmas that are not found in scripture. Read for yourself on his biography.

 

[Robert_Burns]

I did a quick search on Pope Pius IX and found that he started the dogmas that are not found in scripture. Read for yourself on his biography.

Then post it here if you are confident in your source - we will scrutinize it in the forum.