Struggles with the Morality of Homosexuality

[Caesar517]

Spiritually wrong? I’ve never heard anyone use that term. :ehh:

What was considered immoral by people 100 years ago is probably vastly different than today

There is not a “vast difference” in morality over such a short time period. Perhaps if you were to compare the 2nd century with the 20th century.

Smoking was certainly taboo, so was a lot of the fashion ,even the modest fashion of today Woman that went into a bar or drank were considered tramps…

There is a difference between “immoral” and “socially unacceptable”. Morals are derived from divine law, which is eternal and unchanging. Understanding of morals or *opinions *about morality can change, because understanding and opinions can be flawed.

You are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to reject it

You shouldn’t shun this discussion. It may be semantic in nature, but it is a discrepancy which should be reconciled, IMO.

 

[Feste_1242]

Smoking was certainly taboo, so was a lot of the fashion ,even the modest fashion of today Woman that went into a bar or drank were considered tramps…

You are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to reject it

http://www.council-of-elrond.com/forums/images/smilies/rotfl2.gif Excuse me?! I agreed with you that women smoking, among other things, were socially unacceptable (which is synonymous with taboo). You did not address anything I just said. You restated it.

I just wanted to know why you thought morals and sin are different. You have offered no explanation.

I know very well that we have different opinions. I was hoping we could have a mature debate *about *these opinions…

 

[Mea_Culpa]

http://www.council-of-elrond.com/forums/images/smilies/rotfl2.gif Excuse me?! I agreed with you that women smoking, among other things, were socially unacceptable (which is synonymous with taboo). You did not address anything I just said. You restated it.

I just wanted to know why you thought morals and sin are different. You have offered no explanation.

I know very well that we have different opinions. I was hoping we could have a mature debate *about *these opinions…

The examples given were of social mores - like women smoking, etc. Homosexuality is a gravely disordered condition, and homosexual sex is grave matter for sin. That is what the Church teaches. That teaching is infallible and not subject to change. Our society has for the most part accepted abortion, contraception, homosexuality - that doesn’t mean those things aren’t sins. It really shows how corrupt and far from God our society is becoming.

 

[blessedtoo]

I understand that there are ways of getting around the whole immediate family clause, but if my husband or I end up in the hospital then we don’t have to go through any hoops, I automatically have access and vice versa, not to mention that when either he or I pass on, inheritance rights. That was all that I was saying.

Yes, well as husband and wife, you SHOULD have these privileges. Again, it is one of the ways society and our culture chooses to encourage and reinforce the standard of traditional marriage. This is a good thing, especially today, when the traditional marital model is degraded at every turn.

I know what I must say, and do not shrink from expressing the Catholic view that homosexuality is against the moral law if asked directly. However, knowing what you need to say, saying it, and feeling great about it are very different things.

Sister, you have to learn to extend as much mercy to yourself as you seek to extend with others. We don’t always know what to say or when to say it. And in truth, it is really best if we get out of the way and let the Holy Spirit do the talking. When He is ready, he will move our tongues. The key, for me, is to pray constantly, for wisdom and courage.

Also, as a resident of Boston (part of the year) and with family in California, same sex “marriages” are already legally occurring. My husband has a gay friend from high school who has just gotten “married”. A very good college friend who is gay is engaged. I know several gay professors who are “married.”

The times are always a’changing. Thirty-five years ago, families faced a similar challenge when kids decided to co-habitate rather than marry. I was a young woman BEFORE Roe v. Wade and remember when abortion was illegal. Catholics have always been on the “wrong” side of popular opinion. As was our leader.

After painfully having to tell one of my best friends that struggles with homosexuality- a Christian- who asked me directly whether or not I thought that she was sinning, and literally watching a bit of her die inside with rejection as I said that

How do you know what the “dying inside” was about? I have found that some of my gay friends, and certainly my sis who was raised Catholic like I was, inherently know that their lifestyles are opposed to God’s law. The “dying inside” sometimes comes for them when they are faced with the truth.

I did believe it was a sin but I loved her, I have tried to not seek out the homosexuality issue. However, times are changing and a wedding invitation might be in my mailbox and then what?

You will face it when it happens and in the meantime, continue to pray for strength and guidance. I too DREAD the possibility, remote as it may be, of my sis someday wanting to make her 25 year relationship legal. But look at it this way - those we love should also have some sensitivity toward our lifestyles. If our friends and family members know that we are faithful to our Church’s teaching, why would they put us into a situation where we would have to choose between them and God? Would you do that to someone you love?

In academia, expressing the Church’s view on homosexuality is tantamount to donning a white KKK robe or taking a high power hose to black children. In my mind the Church ultimately always stands with the oppressed, the outcast the downtrodden. I think that it is unfair, but it is a fact that Catholics and Protestants who express views like gays should not be legally married, find themselves agreeing with some extremist groups whose other views are repugnant. I don’t know what to do with this. I don’t want to stand in solidarity with supremicist groups who only hold these views because they hate. I do want to follow God and love my neighbor.

This is why it is so important for all Catholics to truly understand WHY our Church teaches what she does. All the moral tenets of our faith are consistent and logical. It is a linear teaching that one can defend from the issue of ABC to euthanasia. Many other faiths, extremist and otherwise, lose some credibility when the loopholes in their dogma are discovered. If you are confident about your faith, you don’t need to worry about being confused with others. Our culture paints with a broad brush and LOVES to lump Christians all together. But we are told in Scripture that they will know we are different by the way we love one another. And we have to remember that there will always be those who DON’T WANT to see. It serves a purpose for them to portray all Christians as the lunatic fringe.

I just struggle with how to materially “hate the sin” and “love the sinner” when many gay people do not feel like they are doing anything wrong. I don’t want someone to stand up on the last day and say that they rejected Christ because I was unloving and pushed them away.

Well, I don’t think that’s even possible. I don’t think we are POWERFUL enough to get between a person and God. If He wants them, He’ll have them!

 

[blessedtoo]

I just had to say that it is such a joy and a RELIEF to see someone come to these forums with an open heart, a faith-filled spirit, and a willingness to listen to hard truths without being defensive or arguing for it’s own sake.

We should rejoice when this happens, since it is so rare. And we should stick to responding to the OP’s needs.

 

[Janet_S]

In academia, expressing the Church’s view on homosexuality is tantamount to donning a white KKK robe or taking a high power hose to black children. In my mind the Church ultimately always stands with the oppressed, the outcast the downtrodden. I think that it is unfair, but it is a fact that Catholics and Protestants who express views like gays should not be legally married, find themselves agreeing with some extremist groups whose other views are repugnant. I don’t know what to do with this. I don’t want to stand in solidarity with supremicist groups who only hold these views because they hate. I do want to follow God and love my neighbor.

If it makes you feel better, Catholics are standing in solidarity with some of the leading civil rights leaders of your city:

boston.com/news/local/articles/2004/02/10/black_clergy_rejection_stirs_gay_marriage_backers/

“As black preachers, we are progressive in our social consciousness, and in our political ideology as an oppressed people we will often be against the status quo, but our first call is to hear the voice of God in our Scriptures, and where an issue clearly contradicts our understanding of Scripture, we have to apply that understanding,” said the Rev. Gregory G. Groover Sr., pastor of Charles Street African Methodist Episcopal Church in Boston. . . .

“We’re weighing in on this because we’re concerned with the epidemic rate of fatherlessness in America and in our community, and we don’t think gay marriage helps that cause,” he said. . .

Also we’re standing in solidarity with civil rights leader Walter Fauntroy (a close associate of Rev Martin Luther King Jr)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_E._Fauntroy

and Roy Innis (chairman of the Congress of Racial Equality.)
cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/07/12/senate.marriage/index.html

“While I will fight for the individual right of anyone of any particular lifestyle, I will not equate and elevate to the same moral high ground that we had in the civil rights movement in the 1950s and 1960s,” he said.

“It is not for those of a lifestyle choice to mandate to the rest of us and to change our basic institution. Marriage is that basic institution.” Roy Innis

Gay rights activists call us bigots and racists to shut us up, but there’s no comparison. Don’t be cowed by the name calling.

 

[Janet_S]

I just want to say there are some great posts in this thread. Keep up the good work!

 

[redrosetea]

http://www.council-of-elrond.com/forums/images/smilies/rotfl2.gif Excuse me?! I agreed with you that women smoking, among other things, were socially unacceptable (which is synonymous with taboo). You did not address anything I just said. You restated it.

I just wanted to know why you thought morals and sin are different. You have offered no explanation.

I know very well that we have different opinions. I was hoping we could have a mature debate *about *these opinions…

I hate debates I stated what I feel. I don’t argue with people…

 

[Feste_1242]

I hate debates I stated what I feel. I don’t argue with people…

Well, ok then. I was hoping you’d be able to defend your opinion. If you hate debates, you’re on the wrong forum. Debates are what this website is all about.

 

[urban-hermit]

Forgive me for not reading the whole thread but I thought I might offer a little reflection of mine for what it’s worth.

I lived the gay life for about 15 years before reverting to an orthodox practice of Catholicism about 6 years ago.

In the beginning, it really didn’t seem fair that I had to permanently stop any and all homosexual activity, since that was the only sexual activity I was interested in.

I had a little talk with God one night and told him indignantly that I didn’t think it was fair but I’d do it to prove how good I [thought I] was.

He blessed me very shortly thereafter with many insights into why homosexual practices could not produce good effects for me and for that reason were wrong for me to do, as His child. Within a few months, I was able to live pretty well without my old addictive sexual behaviors, whereupon He began to show me that now I was at the gateway to overcoming some of my other many sins because I had a new kind of clarity and freedom and self-possession.

I guess the key point I’m trying to make is that when Jesus said the first commandment was to “love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength” … well, that’s what he meant! That’s the most important commandment, and if you do that, everything else will fall into place. These seemingly impossible moral requirements will (supplemented by LOTS of grace through prayer) become easier and easier, and we will begin to DESIRE to do what God has commanded.

But until a person puts God first, it will never fully make sense.

This might not make your immediate conundrum with your friends any easier, but maybe it will open up new ideas about how to evangelize them, especially by example. I’m thinking, not to focus on the actions as isolated offenses, but on chastity as part of a comprehensive plan for unity with God. And I guess even before that comes faith - that God is real and that He is so huge that the only possible place He can have in our lives is the top spot.

Also I think straight people can benefit from this point of view as well. It is possible to make an idol of sex even within marriage. I am truly sincerely happy for married people and not jealous at all. I totally want them to get the full-on best of the best with regard to the sexual realm, but also not shrink from the sacrifices they are supposed to make for God by setting aside the highest place for Him.

God rewards obedience. A prayer I love says it so well:

I will what God wills.
When He wills it.
As He wills it.
Because He wills it.

God bless you and your friends - I know you are on the road to being a sweet savior for them in some way. I will pray for them and you right now before I go to bed.

 

[KingAlfred]

In the case of adoption, it is important to keep the focus on the CHILD. While your response is one of compassion, and is in keeping with the general population, the fact is that a child’s development, health, well-being, and rights must be the priority. The Church (and most child experts, as well as the government) believes that every child has the RIGHT to be raised by his biological parent. When this scenario is impossible, we believe, along with most societies, that children should be raised by a mother and a father. Study after study bears evidence that these roles are indispensable. To purposefully place a child into a homosexual household, when there are other options available, is to seek to satisfy the needs of the PARENTS (in this case, the gay couple) rather than the needs of the child.

The Church has never taught that homosexuals should be denied medical “rights”. If I have a loved one in the hospital, I may be barred from a visitation if I am not an immediate family member. To circumvent this HOSPITAL rule, I may need to have some legal procedures put into play so that I can gain access. But that is not discrimination against gay people - it is discrimination against anyone who is not immediate family. There are many ways to address this problem if one is homosexual. Gay “marriage” is NOT one of them.

Parenting by homosexual couples would severely damage the children involved. I’m absolutely against it. Kids already have enough ‘rubble’ to tunnel through in our crumbling society.

 

[nsm]

Forgive me for not reading the whole thread but I thought I might offer a little reflection of mine for what it’s worth.

I lived the gay life for about 15 years before reverting to an orthodox practice of Catholicism about 6 years ago.

In the beginning, it really didn’t seem fair that I had to permanently stop any and all homosexual activity, since that was the only sexual activity I was interested in.

I had a little talk with God one night and told him indignantly that I didn’t think it was fair but I’d do it to prove how good I [thought I] was.

He blessed me very shortly thereafter with many insights into why homosexual practices could not produce good effects for me and for that reason were wrong for me to do, as His child. Within a few months, I was able to live pretty well without my old addictive sexual behaviors, whereupon He began to show me that now I was at the gateway to overcoming some of my other many sins because I had a new kind of clarity and freedom and self-possession.

I guess the key point I’m trying to make is that when Jesus said the first commandment was to “love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength” … well, that’s what he meant! That’s the most important commandment, and if you do that, everything else will fall into place. These seemingly impossible moral requirements will (supplemented by LOTS of grace through prayer) become easier and easier, and we will begin to DESIRE to do what God has commanded.

But until a person puts God first, it will never fully make sense.

This might not make your immediate conundrum with your friends any easier, but maybe it will open up new ideas about how to evangelize them, especially by example. I’m thinking, not to focus on the actions as isolated offenses, but on chastity as part of a comprehensive plan for unity with God. And I guess even before that comes faith - that God is real and that He is so huge that the only possible place He can have in our lives is the top spot.

Also I think straight people can benefit from this point of view as well. It is possible to make an idol of sex even within marriage. I am truly sincerely happy for married people and not jealous at all. I totally want them to get the full-on best of the best with regard to the sexual realm, but also not shrink from the sacrifices they are supposed to make for God by setting aside the highest place for Him.

God rewards obedience. A prayer I love says it so well:

I will what God wills.
When He wills it.
As He wills it.
Because He wills it.

God bless you and your friends - I know you are on the road to being a sweet savior for them in some way. I will pray for them and you right now before I go to bed.

God bless you for your post. You are truly an inspiration and you (and many other posts on this board) have literally revolutionized my thinking about the whole question. I never even thought of the first commandment in regards to it all. I think I am always going to feel a little bit of dying inside in regards to this particular issue because:

1. I am painfully aware of my own sin and the terrible witness of my own past deeds even though I was a Christian.
2. My best friend, who several years after that conversation that we had, said that I had hurt her deeply and that she always secretly held it against me that I thought that that her engaging in a homosexual lifestyle was sinful.

But you all have given me much to think about with regards to this, please keep it comming!

 

[blessedtoo]

1. I am painfully aware of my own sin and the terrible witness of my own past deeds even though I was a Christian.
2. My best friend, who several years after that conversation that we had, said that I had hurt her deeply and that she always secretly held it against me that I thought that that her engaging in a homosexual lifestyle was sinful.

But you all have given me much to think about with regards to this, please keep it comming!

It is profoundly important to always remember that we are all sinners. Like many others, my past is littered with the detritus of debauchery as well and I did not return to the faith until well into my 40’s. That’s A LOT of debauchery! And like many others, I have HUGE regrets. Because of my lifestyle, I have passed on to my son a very healthy dose of moral relativism. He is far away from any belief in God and if I live to be 100, I can’t undo all the damage I did during those years. Every sin is communal, to some degree or another. We strive now, as faithful Catholics, to help others see that there is another way. Learning from our mistakes is one of God’s most merciful graces.

The profound sadness we feel when others are “hurt” by our devotion to God can not be mitigated. But for me, it’s important to remember that they are not rejecting ME, but rather the teachings of the Church. My hope is that I can continue to present and project the truth with love and compassion so that folks are drawn to God rather than to me. Easier said than done, I know! I have to hope that those who are estranged from me here on earth will be united with God in heaven!

 

[thomfra]

He blessed me very shortly thereafter with many insights into why homosexual practices could not produce good effects for me and for that reason were wrong for me to do

What were these insights?

 

[system]

I am a twenty something graduate student at a major American university and homosexuality is something that is not only discussed frankly on a regular basis but most people have friends, associates, professors who are gay. I am also a musician and as such I have grown up around gay people all of my life.

I am a new Catholic and I say AMEN to everything that the Church teaches. But I have struggled, not with the understanding of the Church’s teaching on homosexuality, but with the knee jerk, gut wrenching reality of looking a close friend that you respect and love in the face and telling them that you believe what they are doing is morally wrong; something that they argue is the way that God made them. Both of my parents are scientists, my mother was actually at the forefront of AIDS research so I know all the stats about how the biological claims of homosexuality are not fully conclusive, etc. That is not my question. My question is how can I love my gay friends while at the same time saying that I think that something with which they define their identity is morally wrong? In the past I have often been in situations when a good friend who knows that I am Christian (I was Evangelical before coming into Full Communion this past December) asks me point blank whether or not I think that they are sinning. When I answer in the affirmative the pain on their face makes me wish that I could rip my heart out.

I love Catholic answers radio and forums – they were instrumental in bringing me into the Church and continue to be a source of instruction and encouragement, but I have not found a answer to the human dimension of the homosexuality question. So many people who are vociferously against Gay marriage and the “gay agenda” seem to have no close homosexual friends – they have never felt the stabbing pain of saying to a close friend that you believe what they are doing…really the fundamental way that they define themselves is wrong and must be repented. That they cannot…should not…be allowed to adopt, have a family, or the basic medical right to make decisions when one or another might fall ill. In my heart of hearts I just can’t seem to reconcile loving and serving my neighbor, my very friends and indeed relatives, if I actively block their quest for basic things like medical rights. But I do ultimately believe what the Church teaches, and I am content to be bound by Her, regardless of my own feelings. My solution has been to keep my head down and avoid the question or any thought of the issue of homosexuality, but there must be a better way. Does anyone have any thoughts?

**** you

 

[nsm]

**** you

Beautiful reply…I have been taking a break from the forums and just watching from the sidelines…perhaps that break needs to be a permanent one.

 

[Newbie2]

The difference is that morals can change but a sin is always a sin

Not necessarily all morals…there are some thologians, JP II included, that feel that there some absolute moral norms. I guess if you’re saying that some morals can change, I’d agree.

Beautiful reply…I have been taking a break from the forums and just watching from the sidelines…perhaps that break needs to be a permanent one.

I think the poster meant to post “***** you”, making a typo and leaving out an “*”. ***** you, of course, means “Bless you”.