Struggling on a point

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Hi Everyone.

I’ve been lurking here for sometime, but decided to post today looking for advice on an issue I’m struggling with. A little background is necessary, so if this gets too long or off point, I’ll separate it into a second post. About seven years ago, I fell into a pretty significant depression. Although I was able to function enough to do my work and get through the day, that was about it. I was overwhelmed with a profound sense of loneliness, even when I wasn’t alone. Nothing seemed to give me any kind of joy or hope for the future. Like I said, that lasted about seven years. Then this past summer, I took a job in a new city, which gave me some hope, but the depression lingered. Then after about four months here, one day the depression just left me—like a receding tide. And I got this sense that God got tired of waiting for me to ask for help and interceded anyway.

Although it was in the spirit of showing gratitude and making reparations, I found myself attending daily mass, in all honesty, just to feel closer to God. What I meant to be a sacrifice (my lunch hour) became the highlight of my day. This made me feel somewhat guilty, like I wasn’t doing enough, so I went to confession and my confessor did a wonderful job counseling me. I confessed all the sins that I could think of and began turning my attention to avoiding sin and making reparations for the sins that I had committed in the past. Since daily mass had become a desire, and not a sacrifice, I decided that I would go about 20 minutes early and pray the rosary before the Blessed Sacrament beforehand. Again, this turned out to be not so much as sacrifice on my part, but beautiful gift from God. The blessings I have received since beginning to pray the rosary have included a profound sense of peace, deeper spiritual understanding, and a dramatic reduction of temptation. But there is one that remains and is the purpose of this post. Of the more tangible blessing that have come my way recently is a great group of new friends and also a terrific girlfriend. In the past, like a lot of young men, I pursued sex like it was the one and only important thing in life. Not that I visited prostitutes or was overly promiscuous; it was more like everything I did was an effort to meet girls, so I could have sex. That has all changed now. Since my reconversion, I have had very little trouble resisting the temptations of pornography, casual sex, and even lustful thoughts. But the one temptation that I’m afraid that I won’t be able to resist is engaging in intimacy in between the time romantic feelings set in and when matrimony occurs. There are several issues here that make it difficult for me. The first is the ambiguity of scripture on the matter. In the NT, Paul is the only one who seems to speak at length about sexual immorality, but he seems to be addressing a specific audience with a specific set of circumstances that appear to be far different than mine. I can’t find any basis for such a strict interpretation as we see in the catechism. The second issue, is that I’m in my mid-thirties, as is my current girlfriend. Most of the arguments you hear about waiting are aimed at teens and young adults. At my age, a person, especially a guy, would almost be branded a weirdo for holding on to such “quaint” ideals. And lastly, I don’t see ANYBODY following this teaching. Most of the people who speak out against premarital relations seem to be married people who engaged in it themselves, but now say that it was wrong.

Here’s the heart of my dilemma. This is not really about lust, but about finding the right person to spend my life with but fearing the temptation that will naturally occur during this search. Since returning to the faith, I’ve been showered with blessing in the form of peace, understanding, friendship, and a new relationship. The last thing I want to do is offend God by abusing these blessings.

Thank you for reading my post. Any prayers and advice would be very helpful.

God Bless,
Michael
 
There are several issues here that make it difficult for me. The first is the ambiguity of scripture on the matter. In the NT, Paul is the only one who seems to speak at length about sexual immorality, but he seems to be addressing a specific audience with a specific set of circumstances that appear to be far different than mine. I can’t find any basis for such a strict interpretation as we see in the catechism.
First off, I will pray for you, please pray for me. Catholics are not “people of the book” as are a good many Protestants. The Church bases its teachings on 3 things: the Bible, Sacred Tradition (of which the Bible is a part) and the decisions of the Magisterium, the living teaching authority of the Church. The Magisterium takes into account the writings of the Church Fathers, as well as the Bible, and the historical approach to questions of morals–IOW, what has always been the teaching of the Church on any particular issue. So, the CCC isn’t merely a “strict interpretation” it is the teaching of Christ, so it is more than an interpretation, it is the law of the Church.
The second issue, is that I’m in my mid-thirties, as is my current girlfriend. Most of the arguments you hear about waiting are aimed at teens and young adults. At my age, a person, especially a guy, would almost be branded a weirdo for holding on to such “quaint” ideals. And lastly, I don’t see ANYBODY following this teaching. Most of the people who speak out against premarital relations seem to be married people who engaged in it themselves, but now say that it was wrong.
Even if the whole of Christendom were to fall in sin in this or any other thing, it would still be wrong. We don’t gage what is right and what is wrong by current attitudes towards sex. It has always been and always will be wrong to engage in sexual intimacy with some one other than a spouse, and that is that. A real man is one who can stick to his principles when others will not, not one who just goes with the flow, even if that flow takes you into sin–sins you yourself now regret having committed.
Here’s the heart of my dilemma. This is not really about lust, but about finding the right person to spend my life with but fearing the temptation that will naturally occur during this search. Since returning to the faith, I’ve been showered with blessing in the form of peace, understanding, friendship, and a new relationship. The last thing I want to do is offend God by abusing these blessings.
Thank you for reading my post. Any prayers and advice would be very helpful.
God Bless,
Michael
If you don’t want to offend God, then don’t. I know that sounds simplistic, but really what else are we talking about here except the plain and simple decision to be counter-cultural by sticking to the morality of the Church? You can do it. Just don’t put you and your girlfriend into any situation in which it would be easy to give into temptation. You should court her as if she were a queen not think of her as your next sexual high. Just don’t make her an object in your heart and mind. And do read JPII’s Theology of the Body. It will help you tremendously to understand why the Church teaches what it does and why it is right. God bless you and your gf. 🙂
 
Michael, I am a married person who did not have sex before getting married. So I know there are people out there who do not give into our culture’s teaching that sex before marriage is almost a “must.” 😃

I’m sure there are some wiser people, maybe some even in your same state in life, who can give you some deeper advice. But here goes. Marriage is a sacrament–it’s in the marriage act (which God desires to take place ONLY within this very special sacrament)–that new souls are created. The purpose of sex is to have babies and to be united to your spouse. Sex outside of marriage usually is not intentionally left open to new life. Would you be willing to conceive a child with your girlfriend before getting married to her? And if not, then are you contemplating using contraception (which is also a mortal sin)? That’s one problem with taking sex out of the context of marriage. You need to seek to do God’s Will, not your will. I would suggest reading Catholic books on the Theology of the Body and other related subjects.

------------------Edited to Include-------------------
Thanks, Della! 🙂
 
Thanks for the replies. Others have recommended Theology of the Body, so I’ll have to pick it up. I guess I’m still not 100% convinced on the gravity of premarital sex per se, although I have reached the point that I can conceded it almost always is a sin. But I assure you, I am working very hard to reconcile my feelings with the teachings of the Church. It’s hard to get past the suspicion that the Church is erring on the side of caution with regards to condemning all premarital sex. I say this because while praying on this subject, I arrived at a conclusion that was later embodied in the sentiment of the first part of the Holy Father’s recent encyclical. It confirmed for me that, yes, the vast majority of the times that I have engaged in physical intimacy in the past, it was selfish and therefore a grave sin. I have confessed and repented for these trespasses. However, I have also been truly in love in the past and have had a hard time feeling truly repentant for encounters that occurred in that context. Those encounters, while not inside of marriage, seemed consistent with the spirit of the recent encyclical.

Before I go any further, I want to make it clear that I am not challenging the Church’s teaching. I know that we can’t practice law on judgment day. It really is a matter of talking this out to reconcile my feelings with the Church. Also, for anyone who is reading this, please don’t use any of my arguments as a justification to do something that may be a sin. Like I said, I’m trying to talk (write) this out with whoever may be interested in helping me understand.

Thanks again for your replies! They really do help.
 
Hello T1pp,

I would highly recommend “The Good News about Sex and Marriage” by Christopher West. It is based on Theology of the Body but is a bit of an shorter read, which can make tackling the real thing all that much easier.

I think it important to look at the pupose of sex in order to understand why it should always be reserved for marriage. The Church teaches that sex is both procreative and unitive. So it is meant to unite a man and a woman as well as lead to children. Unmarried couples tend to ignore one or both of these purposes. Almost all do not want children to be the result of thier union and others do not even want intimacy with their sexual partner. So what they’re doing isn’t sex in the way that the Church understands it.

The Church understands sex as the renewal of wedding vows, where man and wife give themselves completely to each other. Two people cannot give himsethemselves completely to one another before marriage because they do not have a permanent, committed realtionship. In that way sex before marriage is a lie. The bodies of the two people are saying, “I give myself completely to you,” but they have not given everything to each other. They have reserved their future and their children for someone else.

If the couple is seeking marriage, why not wait until they are married to have sex? They have the rest of their lives to enjoy the gift of sex within their marriage.

I waited to have sex until I was married, and so did my husband. It is one of the best decisions I ever made. My husband and I enjoy a type and level of intimacy that I have never and will never share with another human being. This is what sex is supposed to be! We are building an incredibly strong bond that will last for the rest of our lives.

God bless you.
 
Hi!

I’m so happy about your story. You are so lucky! I undertsand your struggle but wanted to add something here. Think about the possible 3rd person you are involving when you have sex. If your girlfriend gets pregnant are you planning on marrying her? I’ve seen many kids lives pulled apart with multiple parents (steps, ect…). It gets ugly.

Cindy
 
Thanks Cindy and Elizabeth for your posts. At this point nothing is imminent, so I have time to pray and seek out the answers I need. I’m still getting used to this new life (and it really is a new life), so it will take some time to feel completely comfortable with both the blessings that have been given to me and what is now expected of me in return. I hope I’m not giving anyone the impression that I am struggling with the temptation of lust, although I know that is what it sounds like. For the most part, I have lust under control(not that I don’t have those feeling, just that now I am in charge of them and not the other way around). What I desire more than anything is that intimacy and unity that occurs inside of marriage, so in that respect, I’m not disagreeing with anyone. It’s just that I’m afraid that in the society and demographics where I live, if I don’t play the game, I’ll end up alone. And there is the real problem—being afraid. For some reason, it always comes back to that for me. I know this is off topic (kind of), but is fear a sin, or just a pathway to sin? It seems to always be my biggest pitfall.
 
I don’t believe that fear itself is a sin (someone correct me if I’m wrong), but it can lead to sin. Take St. Peter for example, denying Christ out of fear.

That said, I find that story about St. Peter heartening. Even Peter was afraid! Even he had moments of weakness. But that same man died for Christ in the end, and served Him well along the way.

Just remember that we are all called to “Be not afraid.” How many times did Pope John Paul II remind the world of this?

Honestly, I don’t see the situation about dating and premarital sex the way you do. Dating shouldn’t be about finding someone who will marry me and then settling down. Trust that if God is calling you to marriage, He will send you the right woman!

Dating is the process that allows us to discover if God is calling us to marriage with a particular person. If I were dating someone who would not marry me before we had sex together, that would be my sign that we were not meant to be together. I need a husband who respects my body and my soul enough to wait fo us to be united in marriage before consumating our relationship.

Additionally, the decision to marry should be made freely without pressure that can be associated with feelings and attachments that arise from living together or having sex before marriage.

God bless.
 
Hi

Just adding my :twocents:

I agree with everyone else here - but would add some Holy Scriptures to the mix:
Colossians 3:5 says: (DRV) Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, lust, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is the service of idols. COL 3:6 For which things the wrath of God cometh upon the children of unbelief,

Also MT 5:27 You have heard that it was said to them of old: Thou shalt not commit adultery. MT 5:28 But I say to you, that whosoever shall look on a woman to lust after her, hath already committed adultery with her in his heart.

We are the Bride of Christ (Rev 19:7-9) *** and as such we are committed in marriage to Him, no other - unless and until such time as He gives us in marriage to another here on earth, and then only until death - as there is no other marriage in heaven (MT 22:30 For in the resurrection they shall neither marry nor be married; but shall be as the angels of God in heaven.) Therefore anyone we so much as look at lustfully in our hearts, whether or not we - or they - are already married here on earth, both are already engaged to Christ - which makes it adultery…twice I would think. Just my thoughts on the subject.

***REV 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give glory to him; for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath prepared herself. REV 19:8 And it is granted to her that she should clothe herself with fine linen, glittering and white. For the fine linen are the justifications of saints. REV 19:9 And he said to me: Write: Blessed are they that are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith to me: These words of God are true.

Peace

John
 
Thanks Elizabeth and John…I think I’m a little misunderstood here. Lust is not the problem. I’ve reached the point where if the most beautiful woman in the world offered herself to me, I’m confident that I could resist that temptation. And I’m not arguing that sex shouldn’t reserved for marriage. The problem is that in our society, sex is presupposed in dating relationships, especially for people my age (35). If I fell in love with a woman, who wanted to wait, I would have no problem with that. But the fact is people with those values are virtually non-existent in my dating pool. I’m not saying that everyone my age is promiscuous. There are plenty of people who are willing to wait for a committed relationship, but there is almost no one (I can’t even think of one) who is willing to wait all the way until the ceremony. That includes women as well as men. I know that God is calling me to marriage, as he does most people, but I do not know how on Earth I am going to get from here to there with out sinning (according to the Church).

John, the passages you included are terrific arguments against sexual immorality, but they do not do a very good job of defining sexual immorality. The people who Paul was writing to were surrounded by people who were engaging in orgies, sleeping with their stepmothers and practicing ritualistic prostitution, not dealing with the temptations that arise while dating. And Mathew 5:28 (IMO) deals not with sex or lust exclusively, but to me says that if given the opportunity to commit a particular sin, we would do it, we are already guilty, whether or not that opportunity ever arises. And the Revelation passages you sited, (also IMO) seem to refer to the Church, not us individuals. We are guests at the wedding feast, not the bride.

I hope I’m not coming off as being too argumentative. I really appreciate your posts and insight. I am fully in agreement with the Church that sex should be reserved for marriage, but I’m having a hard time reconciling the stated gravity of the sin with the temptation that surrounds pursing a marital vocation.

It would be so much easier, if scripture would just come out say “Thou shalt not have sex outside of marriage.” But it doesn’t; it says “Thou shalt not commit adultery,” which is a very specific type of extramarital sex. Although, it doesn’t seem to condone premarital sex, it never really offers a blanket condemnation. For example, the Samaritan Woman at the well whom Christ tells her that the man she is now living with is not her husband. That would have been a perfect time to teach us about that situation, if it is truly as grave as the catechism states. But he doesn’t. He lets her know that he knows what her situation is, as if to say “I know what you’re doing and I don’t approve, but we have more important things to talk about.”

Like I said before, I’m not challenging the Church’s teachings; I’m trying to convince myself of the Church’s teaching so I’m more able to resist temptations that I know I am soon to face.

Thanks again for your replies! God Bless.
 
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T1pp:
It would be so much easier, if scripture would just come out say “Thou shalt not have sex outside of marriage.” But it doesn’t; it says “Thou shalt not commit adultery,” which is a very specific type of extramarital sex. Although, it doesn’t seem to condone premarital sex, it never really offers a blanket condemnation.
Ah, but “scripture” does say so:

Scripture, defined: b : a body of writings considered sacred or authoritative.

Do you consider the teachings of the Church as authoritative? If so, then those teachings are a form of scripture.

There’s no way out, dude, no escape.😃
 
Ahimsa,

I concede your point, but only on the premise of the Church’s authority to loose and bind. That authority is an awesome responsibility. And the Church has done a wonderful job being faithful to God’s will and not loosing too much even when society has demanded it. However, along with the responsibility to avoid permissiveness is also the responsibility to not set the bar so high that it becomes unattainable for most, especially when Holy Scripture (The Holy Bible) doesn’t support such a harsh stance. I would never advocate that the Church reverse it teaching on this matter. Sex should be reserved for marriage. But what the Church should do is examine the environment that we’ve created where the pursuit of marriage becomes virtually impossible without falling into grave sin–especially when the gravity of the sin is based solely on the authority to loose and bind. Please understand. I’m not implying that sex outside of marriage is not a grave sin. When it becomes a commodity, objectifies one or both of the individuals, or when it is intended to be anything but a selfless expression of love, it certainly is a grave sin. What I am objecting to is the apparent lack of charity the catechism displays toward people who are sincerely pursing marriage, but are also hopelessly subject to the culture in which they live.

If I sound a little terse, please don’t take it that way. I sincerely appreciate everyone’s (name removed by moderator)ut.

Thanks everyone,
Michael
 
I just wanted to thank everyone for their (name removed by moderator)ut on this matter before I closed discussion on it. After sleeping on it, I now know that this is an issue I that I need to discuss privately with my priest. You have all helped me realize the truth behind the church’s teaching in this matter. The only sticking point left is the manner in which the law is applied. Although, I completely agree with the spirit of the law, I object to the notion that it must be blindly followed to the point that its effect becomes contrary to its intent. To do so would be Pharasitical. Its intent is to protect and promote marriage; however, someone living in our current culture who places the letter of this law higher than the intent of this law stands a very good chance of ending up alone. For those of you who were able to completely honor this teaching, I admire and commend you, but you should also realize that it was God who blessed you with the circumstances to allow you to do so and still find your spouse. The vast majority of people are not that lucky.

I don’t want anyone to think that I have resigned myself to falling into sin. I will seek to honor this Church law, but not to the point that I violate its intent, which is to lead me towards marriage and family.

Thanks again!
Michael
 
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