Struggling with abuse scandals

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accorn34

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I’m a lapsed Catholic who has been struggling with the sexual abuse scandals for years.
I don’t have a problem with the fact that individuals are not perfect and certain individuals sin, but I do have a problem with the fact that church itself as a whole seems to be operating to support that sin in a systematic way and doesn’t seem to have really repented.

That is the big issue I can’t get over, meaning specifically the fact that church authority covered up the abuse and moved around pedifiles.
You can’t even say that it is an issue with a single country like the US, because a new scandal is erupting in Ireland with the exact same abuse and the exact same evidence that the church hierarchy supported it (and perhaps still is).

As a Catholic we are supposed to submit to the authority of the church with the assumption that they have moral authority to submit to, but how does one do that with such evidence of systematic evil?

I’m not sure what I expect to get from posting this, but I guess I would just like to hear perspectives from other Catholics.
I have some sense of urgency because I have a young daughter who has not been baptized - but I just can’t get over the issue and don’t want to lead her astray just because I was raised as a Catholic and it feels comfortable.
 
accorn34 said:
I’m a lapsed Catholic who has been struggling with the sexual abuse scandals for years.
I don’t have a problem with the fact that individuals are not perfect and certain individuals sin, but I do have a problem with the fact that church itself as a whole seems to be operating to support that sin in a systematic way and doesn’t seem to have really repented.

That is the big issue I can’t get over, meaning specifically the fact that church authority covered up the abuse and moved around pedifiles.
You can’t even say that it is an issue with a single country like the US, because a new scandal is erupting in Ireland with the exact same abuse and the exact same evidence that the church hierarchy supported it (and perhaps still is).

As a Catholic we are supposed to submit to the authority of the church with the assumption that they have moral authority to submit to, but how does one do that with such evidence of systematic evil?

I’m not sure what I expect to get from posting this, but I guess I would just like to hear perspectives from other Catholics.
I have some sense of urgency because I have a young daughter who has not been baptized - but I just can’t get over the issue and don’t want to lead her astray just because I was raised as a Catholic and it feels comfortable.
Click to expand...
From what I know of it, Catholicism does not teach that every decision made by the Church will be a moral one. It is supposed to always be correct when it is speaking infallibly, but its leaders can certainly make mistakes. So I don’t think that this scandal alone should cause you to reject Catholicism. It may lead you to be slightly more liberal and not assume that every single action that every church leader takes must be correct, but it does not invalidate Catholicism. Of course, as an atheist I do think that Catholicism is false, but for other reasons entirely.

Religion is an important matter and I do not think it’s good for anyone to simply believe something because it’s comfortable. I think that it is more important to believe the truth, whatever that may be.
 
Hi, friend.

God bless you for your sensitivity on this issue! Nothing drives me crazier than those Catholics who are so aloof and so distracted with life’s concerns that they don’t even care that, structurally, when bishop after bishop after bishop wrote letters of recommendation for homosexually-inclined priests “harvesting” the laity for “prime beef,” they were functionally “pimping” for them by enabling those wolves to prey on new and unwary herds! (That is the ultimate basis for the lawsuits.)

My contact with the issue was brutal. Our bishop announced a “capital campaign.” I was put in charge of the campaign in our parish. When the bishop came to our parish first, the collectors, greatly disturbed by the lawsuits, had me ask, “Your Eminence, there is a fear among the collectors that the purpose of this capital campaign is to replace funds exhausted by paying for homosexual activity by priests. Is this so?”

The bishop answered, “Pete, let me answer that question in this fashion: From now on, if we catch any priest engaging in that conduct, he is out on his tail. He’s done. He’s defrocked. We won’t tolerate it any more.”

He then went back to his office and wrote a letter of recommendation for another priest engaging in homosexual contact with young males, and this act was recounted in the Complaint demanding millions from our diocese.

Do not be discouraged. The Scriptures give us comfort about all of this in an odd way: Which Apostle was even worse than Judas Iscariot?

Answer: Peter!

Not only did Peter betray Christ 3 times, compared to Judas’ 1 time, but He failed Christ again and again and again, in the Gospels.

Matthew 14 portrays Peter as losing faith and sinking, which, typologically, is a picture of the the administrators of God’s Church sinking into sin. Matthew 14:22-33.

In Matthew 16, a few verses after Jesus appoints Peter head of His Church, Jesus addresses these shocking words to Peter for trying to prevent Jesus’ sacrifice: “Get behind me, Satan! You are an obstacle to me.” Sheesh! Matthew 16:22-23.

In Matthew 26 Peter kept falling asleep in Gethsemane while Jesus agonized. Matthew 26:40, 43, 45.

And then, of course, in the Passion narrative, Peter betrays Jesus 3 times after he boasted that He would never do so and after Jesus assures Him that he would that very night! Matthew 26:69-75.

I believe that the reason why these incidents are recounted is that God was telling us, “Look, when I set up My Church, I never promised you a rose garden! It will be manned by the same fallible humans who man everything else! So, you are going to see the Church mess up! Badly! Believe me!”

“But, it is My Church nonetheless! Make use of it.”
 
Peter, I agree with you.

Accorn,
It is hard to just ignore what is happening to our priesthood, it is even harder when you realise such heinous sins are being covered up.

Yet, do not let that affect your faith in God. Do not keep your daughter away from baptism. Allow God to be in her life. What is happening to our priests should not rob your daughter of her own salvation.

Love and peace
 
accorn34 said:
I’m a lapsed Catholic who has been struggling with the sexual abuse scandals for years.
I don’t have a problem with the fact that individuals are not perfect and certain individuals sin, but I do have a problem with the fact that church itself as a whole seems to be operating to support that sin in a systematic way and doesn’t seem to have really repented.
Click to expand...
On what do you base the assertion that the Church is operating to support sin in a systematic way and that it doesn’t “seem” to have “really” repented?

How familiar are you with the Charter for the Protection of Children? How familiar are you with the new procedures in place in every diocese for dealing with accusations, doing background screening for everyone who has contact with children, and revised processes at seminaries for discernment to priesthood?
accorn34 said:
That is the big issue I can’t get over, meaning specifically the fact that church authority covered up the abuse and moved around pedifiles.
Click to expand...
While I am sure that there were individuals who did “cover up” you must remember that many bishops acted in good faith on the recommendations of trained psychologists and psychotherapists who-- in those days-- believed you could be “cured” of these disordered appetites through therapy.

It is also inaccurate to call **all ** the cases that of pedophiles. They were *many *cases of homosexual men having relations with post-pubescent teen boys-- which is wrong, but not pedophelia.
accorn34 said:
You can’t even say that it is an issue with a single country like the US, because a new scandal is erupting in Ireland with the exact same abuse and the exact same evidence that the church hierarchy supported it (and perhaps still is).
Click to expand...
I am not familiar with the facts of the Ireland situation, therefore I will refrain from commenting.
accorn34 said:
As a Catholic we are supposed to submit to the authority of the church with the assumption that they have moral authority to submit to, but how does one do that with such evidence of systematic evil?
Click to expand...
Because Christ is the head of the Church, and while individual members fail and sin Christ still gave authority to the Church.

People in the Church can sin, but the Church cannot and does not error in its teachings. The Church provides the Sacraments, which are the means of grace and path to sanctity.
accorn34 said:
I’m not sure what I expect to get from posting this, but I guess I would just like to hear perspectives from other Catholics.
I have some sense of urgency because I have a young daughter who has not been baptized - but I just can’t get over the issue and don’t want to lead her astray just because I was raised as a Catholic and it feels comfortable.
Click to expand...
If the Church holds the Truth, how can you remain apart from her?

If you are expecting perfection, there is no place on earth you can find that. Christ is perfect, Christ protects the Church from error. Individual people will always fail us, the Church and Christ never will.

Do not withhold baptism from your daughter and don’t keep yourself away from the Sacraments either. The Sacraments give us grace to grow in holiness.
 
Accorn,

Let me recommend this document to you:

catholic.com/library/A_Crisis_of_Saints.asp

Here’s an excerpt:

**The first thing we need to do is to understand this scandal from the perspective of our faith in the Lord. Before he chose his first disciples, Jesus went up the mountain to pray all night (Luke 6:12). He had many followers at the time. He talked to his Father in prayer about whom he should choose to be his twelve apostles-the twelve whom he would form intimately, the twelve whom he would send out to preach the good news in his name. He gave them power to cast out demons. He gave them power to cure the sick. They watched him work countless miracles. They themselves worked countless others in his name.

Yet one of them turned out to be a traitor. One who had followed the Lord-who had seen him walk on water and raise people from the dead and forgive sinners, one whose feet the Lord had washed-betrayed him. The gospels tells us that Judas allowed Satan to enter into him and then sold the Lord for thirty pieces of silver, handing him over by faking a gesture of love. “Judas,” Jesus said to him in the garden of Gethsemane, “would you betray the Son of Man with a kiss?” (Luke 24:48).

Jesus didn’t choose Judas to betray him. But Judas was always free, and he used his freedom to allow Satan to enter into him, and by his betrayal Jesus was crucified and executed. But God foresaw this evil and used it to accomplish the ultimate good: the redemption of the world.
**

Hope that helps. I also agree with Odopa. Have your baby baptized, and you need to get “unlapsed”. 😉
 
Any abuse and cover up is unacceptable!

With that said, the abuse and mishandling by the Bishops of this vast minority of Priests (5-10%) should not overshadow the good that is done by the other 90-95% of Priests on a daily basis.
**
Focus on the Truth of Jesus Christ that is taught by His Catholic Church and do not let the failings of it’s members distract you from the incredibly beautiful gift that Jesus gave you!**

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark
 
i read a study by the federal govt on public school sexual abuse and it was worse than in the Catholic schools. Because of favorable media and legislation, ie. very short statutes of limitations and Unions enforcing settlements and reassignment of teachers to other districts, it is the same or worse.

People are people!

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark
 
I’ve also had trouble with this issue. The fact that some priest could abuse childrean and that bishops makes me sick, and made me doubt the Church for a while. Then I realized that it while it is a disgrace to all Catholics that a small part of the Church messes up, it really shouldn’t make you leave it because if you look at the big picture the Church is the most beautiful thing in the world. The Church was created by Christ so we could achieve salvation, it’s the only church that has the Eucharist, and the only universal one that has kept the faith pure since the time of Christ.
 
God bless you for your sensitivity on this issue! Nothing drives me crazier than those Catholics who are so aloof and so distracted with life’s concerns that they don’t even care that, structurally, when bishop after bishop after bishop wrote letters of recommendation for homosexually-inclined priests “harvesting” the laity for “prime beef,” they were functionally “pimping” for them by enabling those wolves to prey on new and unwary herds! (That is the ultimate basis for the lawsuits.)
This is a distinction apparently too subtle for some people to grasp, but homosexuality is NOT the same thing as pedophilia.
 
A good study on the roots of this abuse scandal can be found in the book “Goodbye, Good Men” by Michael S. Rose. In it he argues that the seminaries have been overrun by renegade nuns with agendas for female priesthood and liberals who promote gay culture and discourage orthodoxy and traditionalism.

I borrowed it from the library and was utterly shocked at the disclosures. One of the priests interviewed is even Fr. Trigilio from the program “Web of Faith” on EWTN. He attested to the terrible teachings and horrible psychological evaluations given to seminarians faithful to true Catholicism.

How is this connected to the current abuse scandals? The premise put forward (and I agree with) by the book is if someone doesn’t believe in the basic tenets of Catholicism, even hostile to them, and is allowed into positions that enable them to “act out”, this will be the result. And it’s not just the seminarians but the people in power teaching the seminarians.
 
bpbasilphx said:
God bless you for your sensitivity on this issue! Nothing drives me crazier than those Catholics who are so aloof and so distracted with life’s concerns that they don’t even care that, structurally, when bishop after bishop after bishop wrote letters of recommendation for homosexually-inclined priests “harvesting” the laity for “prime beef,” they were functionally “pimping” for them by enabling those wolves to prey on new and unwary herds! (That is the ultimate basis for the lawsuits.)
This is a distinction apparently too subtle for some people to grasp, but homosexuality is NOT the same thing as pedophilia.
Click to expand...
You’re right.

Except that the priests perpetrating the sex acts aren’t pedophiles.

Pedophiles prefer girls about 9-to-1.

The guilty priests prefer boys about 9-to-1.

Pedophiles, as a rule, “do” kids to avoid sexual characteristics like body hair, adult sweat, and adult musculature.

The priests’ victims were POST-pubescent in 5 cases out of 6.

To put it bluntly, they’re nothing but homosexuals going for “prime beef.”

There is a way to prove this: Every time the media investigates the priest’s history of sexual wrongdoing, what do they come up with?

They come up with sexual contacts with ADULT males, too.

It’s very consistent.

They’re gay, they’re not pedophiles.

I’m not in the business of “picking on gays.” I think that the phenomenon occurs because male homosexuals are “grazers,” and without female psychology to tie them down, they tend to be very, very, very promiscuous.
 
Peter_Dawson said:
You’re right.

Except that the priests perpetrating the sex acts aren’t pedophiles.

Pedophiles prefer girls about 9-to-1.

The guilty priests prefer boys about 9-to-1.

Pedophiles, as a rule, “do” kids to avoid sexual characteristics like body hair, adult sweat, and adult musculature.

The priests’ victims were POST-pubescent in 5 cases out of 6.

To put it bluntly, they’re nothing but homosexuals going for “prime beef.”

There is a way to prove this: Every time the media investigates the priest’s history of sexual wrongdoing, what do they come up with?

They come up with sexual contacts with ADULT males, too.

It’s very consistent.

They’re gay, they’re not pedophiles.

I’m not in the business of “picking on gays.” I think that the phenomenon occurs because male homosexuals are “grazers,” and without female psychology to tie them down, they tend to be very, very, very promiscuous.
Click to expand...
You include some data that I have never seen. Do you have a link or something that I could take a look at? Particularly the data about priest’s victims being post-pubescent. I had never heard this before. It is always represented in the media that the victims were overwhelmingly pre-pubescent boys. Of course, it would be no shock that our ‘politically correct’ media would never say anything other than the truth.:rolleyes:
 
I was hoping to get some official documentation regarding Peter Dawson’s previous post. This is an subject is very important to me for personal reasons. Peter, if you have any official links, please post them.
 
accorn34 said:
I’m a lapsed Catholic who has been struggling with the sexual abuse scandals for years.
I don’t have a problem with the fact that individuals are not perfect and certain individuals sin, but I do have a problem with the fact that church itself as a whole seems to be operating to support that sin in a systematic way and doesn’t seem to have really repented.

That is the big issue I can’t get over, meaning specifically the fact that church authority covered up the abuse and moved around pedifiles.
You can’t even say that it is an issue with a single country like the US, because a new scandal is erupting in Ireland with the exact same abuse and the exact same evidence that the church hierarchy supported it (and perhaps still is).

As a Catholic we are supposed to submit to the authority of the church with the assumption that they have moral authority to submit to, but how does one do that with such evidence of systematic evil?

I’m not sure what I expect to get from posting this, but I guess I would just like to hear perspectives from other Catholics.
I have some sense of urgency because I have a young daughter who has not been baptized - but I just can’t get over the issue and don’t want to lead her astray just because I was raised as a Catholic and it feels comfortable.
Click to expand...
And where will you go? When I was a girl I belonged to a very wealthy protestant church. The Rector was moved somewhere else as he was a pedophile and had been molesting boys. He was married and had children.

My friend belongs to a mega church and one of their youth ministers was found to be abusing young boys.

This is a universal problem. Protestant churches do not keep records of these actions. They just let the pastor/minister leave and go somewhere else. This a problem within society.

I bellieve that most of the actions within our Church were homosexual. I also have a very difficult time accepting the fact that boys who are 14, 15, 16 and above would not approach someone if this were happening to them and tell them. Money was and is involved. Since people outside of the Church think that the Catholic Church is so wealthy money is an issue. Are Baptists, non denominational churches sued when this happens, if so I sure haven’t heard about it.

I don’t condone any abuse in any church or organization, but let us look at this with open minds. My daughter who was 3 years old and then again at 3 1/2 was molested at two different babysitters. One was by a teenager, the other a man of about 70. In the first incidence she had her own language, she could understand us, but because of a learning disability could not communicate very well. She is very intelligent by the way. Well at the age of 3 she let me know that something was not right and as her mother I worked with her and found out what had happended. The second time she had had speech therapy and told me what was going on. I went to the police and they said that since she had this problem with speech and that it had happened before they felt she should not have to go through a court process. They just dropped the ball. My daughter at 3 1/2 wanted her father to kill the older man who had abused her. She suffered for many years because of this. My point is if a 3 year old child who has problems with speech can communicate abuse why wouldn’t a teenager be able to convey what was happening.

I think that whether it is our Church or other churches or organizations these men go into it with the exact intent of abusing children and young adults. In my case the attitude was to just forget it and go on with your life. There was a belief that pedophiles could be helped many years ago. We now know that is not the case.

Where ever you go in life, whatever your choices on which church or group, like scouts etc. is there will be abusers. Any priest, Bishop or minister who has power over others will be accountable when they stand before God for what they have done. I am not familiar with the Irish problem, but believe that a similar thing happened with the Anglicans.

I pray that the Church will be vigilent in overseeing who becomes a priest or who works with our children, but no matter how hard we try to avoid this happening again human nature will find a way to gain access to children.

Also this is not connected to child abuse, but there have been several times where ministers and people closely identified with other churches has murdered their wives or others, including children. Is this not also a scandal?

Our Catholic Church although the true Church is filled with sinful people, but that does not change the truth of the Church being Christ’s Church. So where will you go to find that perfect church?

I love the Church and there are so many wonderful priests in it. I feel sorrow for them that they must carry the burden of other’s sin on their shoulders.

I will pray that the Holy Spirit will be with you in your decisions.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette
 
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