Struggling with CCC 1022

  • Thread starter Thread starter Needy1
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
N

Needy1

Guest
1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification592 or immediately,593-or immediate and everlasting damnation.594
So atheists and pagans who doesn’t recognize God, and committing sins can get punished for eternity, if God decide? How about poor childs of pagans who died under 5 years old without baptism etc? Will they go to hell for eternity if they had stole something in their shorter lifetime? What about Catholics if one skipped Sunday Mass for more sleep, had lust on someone, committed masturbation and contraception, then got murdered by a robber before his confession? Will he get punished for eternity?

And how about Luke 16:24? Will the rich man stay on fire for eternity, since he enjoyed his lifetime with his wealth pretty much?

I’m struggling with the concept of eternal punishment. Literally it is infinitely longer than ten billions of years. I don’t know how to deal with it.
 
Last edited:
No one commits a mortal sin without the will to commit the sin. From the CCC:
857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."131
For mortal sin to lead to damnation, it has to be accompanied by final impenitence:
1864 There are no limits to the mercy of God, but anyone who deliberately refuses to accept his mercy by repenting, rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Holy Spirit.137 Such hardness of heart can lead to final impenitence and eternal loss.
God offers all the graces necessary to be saved, even “in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him” (CCC 848).
 
Last edited:
‘ There is no salvation outside the church’ is one of the most misunderstood teachings.

I would suggest reading a few church documents on what that really means. Because non Catholics and non christians and atheists are not automatically excluded
 
Last edited:
I’m struggling with the concept of eternal punishment.
One solution to this problem is maybe people in hell still don’t want to be saved. Maybe they still reject God.

People in heaven are perfectly united to God’s will by their own choice, and though free they would never sin because they have been purified.

I think it’s the opposite for those in hell.
 
This is the sort of “teaching” that makes me want to jump Catholic ship.
No one knows what happens beyon\d death.
 
Last edited:
No one knows what happens beyon\d death.
Except God, and what he’s revealed through his Word, establishing the Church and giving it his Spirit and entrusting it with the teaching authority on just these types of questions.
 
Last edited:
So atheists and pagans who doesn’t recognize God, and committing sins can get punished for eternity, if God decide?
yes
How about poor childs of pagans who died under 5 years old without baptism etc?
they do not go to Heaven or Hell, but they go to children’s limbo …
What about Catholics if one skipped Sunday Mass for more sleep, had lust on someone, committed masturbation and contraception, then got murdered by a robber before his confession? Will he get punished for eternity?
Yes…
 
Your answers are extremely simplistic and miss the nuance involved in Catholic theology. And some of them are wrong. “Children’s limbo” was a speculation by theologians that escaped because people found the idea attractive. It has never been the teaching of the Church. You have also completely missed the possibility of confession by desire (not an official term, but real nevertheless). And the Church teaches that it is possible for people who have never heard of God to be admitted to the divine Presence.

God isn’t a remorseless bureaucrat intent on “catching” people in hopes of dooming them to hell. God is much more merciful than your post suggests.
 
A classic question I always heard was “can an atheist go to heaven?” The answer : why would they want to be part of something they do not believe in?
 
I’m struggling with the concept of eternal punishment. Literally it is infinitely longer than ten billions of years. I don’t know how to deal with it.
The struggle described above evidences imperfect contrition – fear of hell. Imperfect contrition, better than no contrition, moves soul to begin to “deal with it” by ordering oneself to God’s will. The ordered person submits their will to God’s will, knows God’s will by careful study and acceptance of the teaching of His Church, and participates in Her sacraments especially Eucharist to spiritually strengthen them during the trial.

“Come to me, all you who labor and are burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am meek and humble of heart; and you will find rest for yourselves. For my yoke is easy, and my burden light." (Mat 11:28-30).
 
Last edited:
So atheists and pagans who doesn’t recognize God, and committing sins can get punished for eternity, if God decide?
The way I understand your question, it seems to me that you’re asking whether God has no power over those who refuse to believe in him. So, I might rephrase the question: if you refuse to recognize the authority of your local police force, can they nevertheless throw you in jail? It’s not the question of belief that gives God authority – it’s the fact that He is, actually, God!
How about poor childs of pagans who died under 5 years old without baptism etc? Will they go to hell for eternity if they had stole something in their shorter lifetime?
There’s no precise definition of the “age of reason”, but we’d say that a young child cannot make the kind of choice that could be considered “mortal sin”. And therefore, they cannot be condemned for personal sin.
they do not go to Heaven or Hell, but they go to children’s limbo …
That is absolutely not what the Catholic Church teaches. You might want to read The Hope of Salvation for Infants who Die Without Being Baptized, which is found at the Vatican website.

We do not assert that there is a “children’s limbo”, nor that anyone has a final judgment that places them anywhere else but ‘heaven’ or ‘hell’.
What about Catholics if one skipped Sunday Mass for more sleep, had lust on someone, committed masturbation and contraception, then got murdered by a robber before his confession? Will he get punished for eternity?
If your question is “can one unrepented mortal sin lead to hell?”, then the answer is yes. However, your questions don’t consider whether the person had repented and wished to go to confession. That would be a critical question to ask!
And how about Luke 16:24? Will the rich man stay on fire for eternity, since he enjoyed his lifetime with his wealth pretty much?
That depends on whether you interpret that parable as describing ‘hell’ or ‘purgatory’. Personally, I think that it doesn’t make sense to interpret it as ‘purgatory’, so the answer to your question is ‘yes’ – he’s in hell, and it’s eternal.
A classic question I always heard was “can an atheist go to heaven?” The answer : why would they want to be part of something they do not believe in?
I guess it would depend on what flavor of atheist they consider themselves – positive assertion of the non-existence of God, or simply asserting that God’s existence hasn’t been sufficiently proven. We’d also ask whether their lack of belief is imputable to them, or if they’re ‘invincibly ignorant’.
 
Last edited:
Thanks for posted everyone. I did read all the comments. This topic can be closed now.
 
Because it makes no sense unless it is completely black and white
Yes, it does. I don’t know why you’re so opposed to even the slightest nuance. You’re a smart guy, I guarantee if you give it thirty minutes you’ll get your head around it.
 
Yes, it does. I don’t know why you’re so opposed to even the slightest nuance. You’re a smart guy, I guarantee if you give it thirty minutes you’ll get your head around it.
Forgetting invincible ignorance and little children for the moment.

Either those outside the church are lost or they are not, they cannot be half lost unless it is speaking only of Catholics leaving the faith?
 
Invincible ignorance is quite a meaty topic. You’re trying to reduce some pretty heady questions into two or three sentences. I’m not sure why you have this need to have everything stripped down to a pure black and white.
 


Either those outside the church are lost or they are not, …
Catechism
“Outside the Church there is no salvation”
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?[335] Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.[336]
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: …
 
While human beings are alive, we can change our minds about our ultimate disposition towards God. Once we are dead we can’t. So if death finds a man in rebellion against God, he will remain in rebellion forever, and will thus deserve to be punished forever.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top