Struggling with contraception etc teachings.. a lot

[blue_skies_1]

To the OP and Penitent Man…

It’s helpful to remember that NFP is difficult, not normal, and a gift all at the same time. It’s not the way we were designed. In a perfect world the man and woman come together when they are so moved and welcome children into the world about every 2-3 years. In this imprefect world, sometimes it is necessary, for grave reasons, to abstain in order to avoid having another child at a particular time. We shouldn’t think that such a thing would be fun, or rewarding, or feel good. It doesn’t. NFP is like getting up with your sick child in the middle of the night. You don’t do it because it thrills you; you do it because the circumstances demand it.

Don’t blame the Church for these difficulties, these are the difficulties of the fallen world. Embrace your cross, but realize (despite what many well-intentioned NFP advocates may say), it’s still very much a cross.

This is true and such a good point to make.

 

[KenEOTE]

To the OP and Penitent Man…

It’s helpful to remember that NFP is difficult, not normal, and a gift all at the same time. It’s not the way we were designed. In a perfect world the man and woman come together when they are so moved and welcome children into the world about every 2-3 years. In this imprefect world, sometimes it is necessary, for grave reasons, to abstain in order to avoid having another child at a particular time. We shouldn’t think that such a thing would be fun, or rewarding, or feel good. It doesn’t. NFP is like getting up with your sick child in the middle of the night. You don’t do it because it thrills you; you do it because the circumstances demand it.

Don’t blame the Church for these difficulties, these are the difficulties of the fallen world. Embrace your cross, but realize (despite what many well-intentioned NFP advocates may say), it’s still very much a cross.

I agree to an extent not sure where you get teh every 2-3 years thing.

THe thing is when people start picking and choosing which teachings of the Catholic Church they are going to follow it waters it down. How can they then tell someone “This is the one true Church of God. That Christ Estabished through Peter. I believe all that except this one issue I disagree with…”

You have then opened the door to others saying well see you don’t even follow all teh Churches teachings so perphaps there are other teachings that are wrong as well.

 

[Sure]

I agree to an extent not sure where you get teh every 2-3 years thing.

THe thing is when people start picking and choosing which teachings of the Catholic Church they are going to follow it waters it down. How can they then tell someone “This is the one true Church of God. That Christ Estabished through Peter. I believe all that except this one issue I disagree with…”

You have then opened the door to others saying well see you don’t even follow all teh Churches teachings so perphaps there are other teachings that are wrong as well.

2-3 years comes from the fact that women who follow Nature’s design and breastfeed their children experience, on average 11 months of infertility. Given that a woman is only fertile a few days per month, it is likely that she will not get pregnant the first month her fertility returns. Add in the 9 month gestation and you are right around 2-3 years.

I hope you didn’t think that anything I wrote indicated a promotion of “cafeteria catholicism.” My main point was that NFP is not some wonderful, enjoyable activity. It is difficult because it goes against Nature as designed by God the Father. It is not anymore marriage-enhancing than any other type of suffering or sacrifice. It is a gift from a benevolent Creator for those serious times when it would be difficult to welcome another child.

 

[KenEOTE]

2-3 years comes from the fact that women who follow Nature’s design and breastfeed their children experience, on average 11 months of infertility. Given that a woman is only fertile a few days per month, it is likely that she will not get pregnant the first month her fertility returns. Add in the 9 month gestation and you are right around 2-3 years.

I hope you didn’t think that anything I wrote indicated a promotion of “cafeteria catholicism.” My main point was that NFP is not some wonderful, enjoyable activity. It is difficult because it goes against Nature as designed by God the Father. It is not anymore marriage-enhancing than any other type of suffering or sacrifice. It is a gift from a benevolent Creator for those serious times when it would be difficult to welcome another child.

No I didn’t think you were advocating the cafeteria plan. I had the question of 2 - 3 years.

But I was refering to the whole idea ingeneral of using contraceptions.

 

[jmcrae]

Children themselves are a form of natural birth control, when they burst in on you at - ahem - awkward moments.

(This, I think, is why city families only had 3-4 children, even before there was birth control - because once the eldest child turns six, it’s harder to find the privacy you need to make more babies, if you are all confined to the same house.)

 

[Corki]

To the OP and Penitent Man…

It’s helpful to remember that NFP is difficult, not normal, and a gift all at the same time. It’s not the way we were designed. In a perfect world the man and woman come together when they are so moved and welcome children into the world about every 2-3 years. In this imprefect world, sometimes it is necessary, for grave reasons, to abstain in order to avoid having another child at a particular time. We shouldn’t think that such a thing would be fun, or rewarding, or feel good. It doesn’t. NFP is like getting up with your sick child in the middle of the night. You don’t do it because it thrills you; you do it because the circumstances demand it.

Don’t blame the Church for these difficulties, these are the difficulties of the fallen world. Embrace your cross, but realize (despite what many well-intentioned NFP advocates may say), it’s still very much a cross.

Very good post. One of the things that has changed over time is a (false) perception that married people are “entitled” to sex all the time. NFP is not an alternative to contraception. If there is a serious reason to avoid another child, it is an alternative to total abstinence.

 

[kage_ar]

Those of you discussing the CCC on stealing, could you please post your CCC paragraphs?

 

[Burdock]

to corki so because i am not a catholic doesnt mean that i cannot post on this subject . I am very drawn to the catholic faith but i struggle with this whole contraception thing.But comments like yours are putting me off becoming catholic im not sure what to do.Burdock

 

[a_cermak]

Why are you interested in Catholicism? There are similar faiths that have no contraception regulations such as the Eastern Orthodox (in all of its glorious forms) and the Episcopalians.

Or you could put off conversion until after either you or your wife go through menopause or are sterilized, since then it would be irrelevant.

I wouldn’t suggest converting without agreeing with the religion you were converting to.

 

[Corki]

to corki so because i am not a catholic doesnt mean that i cannot post on this subject . I am very drawn to the catholic faith but i struggle with this whole contraception thing.But comments like yours are putting me off becoming catholic im not sure what to do.Burdock

Not at all. You are most welcome to post. But since the OP was asking about Catholic Church teaching, it is relevant to point out that your opinion does not come from the perspective of that teaching.

 

[Burdock]

to a cermak you asked why im drawn to the catholic church i don know i just have a strong pull towards it il have to disern if it is gods will for me.

 

[PennitentMan]

To the OP and Penitent Man…

Thanks for the thoughts Sure, but for me it’s way too late for that. I have left the Church long ago exactly over this issue.

I just thought I’d mention, since some are not familiar with my posts yet

I won’t go into details or anything…partly because there may be people that I’ll influence the wrong way by such a post. That’s also why I kept my post more neutral than I really wanted to…out of respect for the folks who are earnestly seeking…

I still come and read the posts, but I don’t post nearly as much as I used to.

Thanks,
PM

 

[LittleDeb]

To the OP and Penitent Man…

It’s helpful to remember that NFP is difficult, not normal, and a gift all at the same time. It’s not the way we were designed. In a perfect world the man and woman come together when they are so moved and welcome children into the world about every 2-3 years. In this imprefect world, sometimes it is necessary, for grave reasons, to abstain in order to avoid having another child at a particular time. We shouldn’t think that such a thing would be fun, or rewarding, or feel good. It doesn’t. NFP is like getting up with your sick child in the middle of the night. You don’t do it because it thrills you; you do it because the circumstances demand it.

Don’t blame the Church for these difficulties, these are the difficulties of the fallen world. Embrace your cross, but realize (despite what many well-intentioned NFP advocates may say), it’s still very much a cross.

It is a good post, but I do still have to disagree with a few points. Periodic abstinence is a very normal thing. In Catholic cultures and some Eastern Orthodox cultures abstinence is common as a Lenten sacrifice. Periodic continence is something directly addressed in Scripture. It is said it is to be for the good of the spouses and the time is to be spent in prayer.

Now as far as deliberate continence during fertility for the purpose of delaying pregnancy…then yes. That is a cross some of us must bear. I was first attracted to NFP because the most successful marriages I had ever seen had that one common thread, periodic continence as a sacrifice even into the post-menopausal years. Periodic continence is a personal discipline that brings holiness. NFP is subset of periodic continence.

What “NFP advocates” say is that we are not less open to God’s plan for our family than those who use no form of birth regulation. We are just as open to His plan, however our circumstances are not as ideal. I would absolutely LOVE to have lots of babies. My health prevents it. My husband and I are willing to embrace total continence if my health gets worse. Sometimes I spend more days sick, than well.

Yes, I agree it is a very fallen world.

 

[Jea9]

I just want to say, as an unmarried-though-dying-to-be-a-mom 26yo woman, that getting married is not a ‘right’. Not everyone is called to be married. If you are not comfortable with the teachings on NFP, or with abstaining, or willing to carry a child to term (or get pregnant) if YOUR health might be in jeopardy…maybe marriage is not the vocation that you should have. Isn’t there a saint that chose her child’s life over her own? Carried the child to term despite being told she would die…and she did die? If we are not willing to do that…maybe marriage and the potential of being a parent is not what we are called to do.

I want to be married and have kids too but, gosh, it isn’t MY will that I’m doing here on earth…sometimes we need some perspective I think.

Just my :twocents:

 

[LittleDeb]

I just want to say, as an unmarried-though-dying-to-be-a-mom 26yo woman, that getting married is not a ‘right’. Not everyone is called to be married. If you are not comfortable with the teachings on NFP, or with abstaining, or willing to carry a child to term (or get pregnant) if YOUR health might be in jeopardy…maybe marriage is not the vocation that you should have. Isn’t there a saint that chose her child’s life over her own? Carried the child to term despite being told she would die…and she did die? If we are not willing to do that…maybe marriage and the potential of being a parent is not what we are called to do.

I want to be married and have kids too but, gosh, it isn’t MY will that I’m doing here on earth…sometimes we need some perspective I think.

Just my :twocents:

Here she is! Saint Gianna Beretta Molla

 

[newbetx]

Thanks for the thoughts Sure, but for me it’s way too late for that. I have left the Church long ago exactly over this issue.

I just thought I’d mention, since some are not familiar with my posts yet

I won’t go into details or anything…partly because there may be people that I’ll influence the wrong way by such a post. That’s also why I kept my post more neutral than I really wanted to…out of respect for the folks who are earnestly seeking…

I still come and read the posts, but I don’t post nearly as much as I used to.

Thanks,
PM

Welcome back to CAF, PM. I hope your health is well.

I wish I knew what to say that could help you understand. I pray that you find the messenger that can finally communicate the key to this teaching. It changed my life. I would hope that it helps you some day.

 

[newbetx]

to a cermak you asked why im drawn to the catholic church i don know i just have a strong pull towards it il have to disern if it is gods will for me.

I know what you mean, Burdock. I finally took the hint and dove right in. However, I too had great difficulty with many of the teachings of the Church. Fear not, the Church is patient. She knows that its difficult to take it all in at once. She’s had to be very patient with this doubting Thomas, I assure you.

While there are a great many posts about this subject, and I think the proper essence is there but a forum does not make a good context in which to learn. I suggested some reading before and I’ll do it again because this subject requires a great deal of background before one can understand it. It would be, IMO, impossible to learn it all here. You need to go read about TOB. It will answer your questions. It’s all biblically based. Really. Please look into it.

Peace to you!

 

[newbetx]

To the OP and Penitent Man…

It’s helpful to remember that NFP is difficult, not normal, and a gift all at the same time. It’s not the way we were designed. In a perfect world the man and woman come together when they are so moved and welcome children into the world about every 2-3 years. In this imprefect world, sometimes it is necessary, for grave reasons, to abstain in order to avoid having another child at a particular time. We shouldn’t think that such a thing would be fun, or rewarding, or feel good. It doesn’t. NFP is like getting up with your sick child in the middle of the night. You don’t do it because it thrills you; you do it because the circumstances demand it.

Don’t blame the Church for these difficulties, these are the difficulties of the fallen world. Embrace your cross, but realize (despite what many well-intentioned NFP advocates may say), it’s still very much a cross.

I had to bookmark this post. Nice job! In our “easy” world it is too often forgotten the need for sacrafice. Even within a marriage. Sacrafice is a key ingredient to a successful relationship.

 

[PennitentMan]

Welcome back to CAF, PM. I hope your health is well.

I wish I knew what to say that could help you understand. I pray that you find the messenger that can finally communicate the key to this teaching. It changed my life. I would hope that it helps you some day.

Hi Newbetx.

Thanks for asking, actually, my health has always been fine, my wife’s health was the issue. She’s good now though, thanks.

I don’t think you need to pray for that. We’re so much happier now, without NFP.
Let me re-phrase “much happier” :Our marriage has been brought back from the brink of destruction, and my wife is now, finally, more than 8 months later, better.
I experienced the destruction and seperation, feelings of despair and loneliness that NFP bring to some families first hand, and I cannot believe that Jesus’s teachings, if followed properly and faithfully, can lead to the seperation of a marriage, to suicide or to pornography and adultery. We were close to all of these as a direct result of this teaching…and we were faithfull believers, placing ALL in the hands of the Chruch’s teachings.
There are MANY of us out there. Placing all in the hands of the Chruch, following faithfully, with all our hearts, and this teaching destroys…not for everyone, of course, but for more than enough people that I can’t believe that it’s infallable…not even for a moment do I believe that it’s Jesus’s words.

No brother.

There is no “key” that will make me go back to that.

Doh! Here I go again!

I’ll bow out now.

But, thanks for asking, it’s been great chatting

In Christ,

PM.

 

[blue_skies_1]

Those of you discussing the CCC on stealing, could you please post your CCC paragraphs?

Hi kage_are, it was me who referred to Church teaching on stealing. I did not mention the CCC as you know, however I was certain that I read it in a reliable source, just done a google serach and found a clear reference to the idea on this website:

eoccc.org/csfcs/themes/poor.html

If you scroll right down to the Catholic teachings section you will find this assertion is made, under point 69.

Here is the quote:

If one is in extreme necessity, he has the right to procure for himself what he needs out of the riches of others. Since there are so many people prostrate with hunger in the world, this sacred council urges all, both individuals and governments, to remember the aphorism of the Fathers, “Feed the man dying of hunger, because if you have not fed him, you have killed him,” and really to share and employ their earthly goods, according to the ability of each, especially by supporting individuals or peoples with the aid by which they may be able to help and develop themselves.
Gaudium et Spes, (The Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the Modern World)

Does this satisfy you that I am not making up Church teachings on a whim?