Struggling with contraception etc teachings.. a lot

[LilyM]

Hi Newbetx.

Thanks for asking, actually, my health has always been fine, my wife’s health was the issue. She’s good now though, thanks.

I don’t think you need to pray for that. We’re so much happier now, without NFP.
Let me re-phrase “much happier” :Our marriage has been brought back from the brink of destruction, and my wife is now, finally, more than 8 months later, better.
I experienced the destruction and seperation, feelings of despair and loneliness that NFP bring to some families first hand, and I cannot believe that Jesus’s teachings, if followed properly and faithfully, can lead to the seperation of a marriage, to suicide or to pornography and adultery. We were close to all of these as a direct result of this teaching…and we were faithfull believers, placing ALL in the hands of the Chruch’s teachings.
There are MANY of us out there. Placing all in the hands of the Chruch, following faithfully, with all our hearts, and this teaching destroys…not for everyone, of course, but for more than enough people that I can’t believe that it’s infallable…not even for a moment do I believe that it’s Jesus’s words.

No brother.

There is no “key” that will make me go back to that.

Doh! Here I go again!

I’ll bow out now.

But, thanks for asking, it’s been great chatting

In Christ,

PM.

Neither Jesus’ teachings nor the Church’s teachings about sexuality lead to any such thing.

For the benefit of those who, unlike PM here, have NOT closed their ears to Jesus’ or the Church’s ‘hard teachings’, it is in fact our human weakness and frailty, our concupiscence, our human inability to get past the wrong belief that sex or sexual release of some form is either a necessity or a God-given right, even within marriage, that leads to problems such as you have experienced. ABC is a band-aid solution that doesn’t remove that fundamental misunderstanding.

What happens when either your wife gets ill again, or you yourself become ill? One or other will certainly happen at some point - and if it’s sufficiently serious, then even ABC won’t help, but you will have to abstain either permanently or for a lengthy period of time.

What happens, God forbid, if any other serious problems crop up in your marriage? You’ve already learned to think of porn and adultery as ways of escaping marital difficulties, and those temptations aren’t just going to surface when sexual difficulties arise now, but when ANY difficulties occur.

In any time of trial from now on, the same problems that you had pre-ABC will crop up, the same temptations to porn and adultery and so on, and using ABC now will only make them the worse for you because you won’t have learned the communication skills, maturity and self-discipline required for successful long-term resolution of such relationship difficulties.

So don’t ask anyone not to pray for you - you most certainly need prayer now more than ever. Nothing else will help you on that day, which will surely come, certainly not the self-discipline and other skills you could’ve been learning now instead of choosing the easy way out.

If our attitude is that abstinence or NFP, or any other behaviour requiring self-discipline, is impossible for us even with God’s help, then we are creating a self-fulfilling prophecy for ourselves that has naught to do with the correctness or otherwise of church teaching. And our problem is a failure to comprehend and respond to the reality of God and the reality of our own frail human nature, and not with the Church’s teaching.

 

[PennitentMan]

Hi LilyM.

Thanks for posting.

Let me just set straight a few miss-interpretations:

What happens when either your wife gets ill again, or you yourself become ill?

The reasons my wife was ill was because of pregnancy. The pregnancy made her severely ill, migraines, coupled with overstraining the heart, etc. Another pregnancy might very possibly kill her physically…also, mentally, she’s not strong when it comes to pregnancy; She started suffering from depression and she returned from the brink of suicide last time.

Sorry to get so personal about my life, but just so that you know what the “illness” is I’m referring to.

What happens, God forbid, if any other serious problems crop up in your marriage? You’ve already learned to think of porn and adultery as ways of escaping marital difficulties, and those temptations aren’t just going to surface when sexual difficulties arise now, but when ANY difficulties occur.

I didn’t look at porn and adultery as a way out, I realized that the lack of intimacy as a result of NFP was driving me towards these things. Even with communicating with my wife about our struggles didn’t solve anything; as long as we were practicing NFP. Thank God that I realized this in time and stopped the tendencies. It’s definitely not escaping anything.
Difficulties are dealt with by communication and addressing the issue.
We did address the issue and communicate through it.

using ABC now will only make them the worse for you because you won’t have learned the communication skills, maturity and self-discipline required for successful long-term resolution of such relationship difficulties.

Nope, see point above.

This was just a little side-line info. I’m not commenting on the rest since I do not adhere to these teachings, since I’m not Catholic.

Thanks!

In Christ, PM

 

[Burdock]

to pm i cant believe what lily m has posted about abstaining even permanatly if your wife becomes ill . The fact still remains that a majority of practicing catholics use birth control noone seems to address this.

 

[PennitentMan]

to pm i cant believe what lily m has posted about abstaining even permanatly if your wife becomes ill . The fact still remains that a majority of practicing catholics use birth control noone seems to address this.

Hi Burdock.

Honestly, I wouldn’t expect anything less than that post. Catholicism is really about all or nothing.

I don’t know why it’s not addressed…maybe if they start addressing it severely and as harshly as they should, then 90% of Catholics would be excommunicated.

I think they should address it more sternly…just for the fact that in order to call yourself Catholic, you have to subscribe to all it’s teachings, especially the teachings that are labeled as infallible, or the ones where disobeying them has mortal sin as a direct consequence.
But they don’t, I dunno why, and I wonder how much blame they carry in ignoring the issue…it breeds ignorance.
But then I can’t judge anyone, since by their standards I’m on my way to hell myself…
yet there are others that still saunter their beehinds up to the communion rail and receive the Eucharist, even when their priests know about this…
Ah well.

 

[Burdock]

I cant grt my head around some of this . its not normal to be totaly celebate within a marriage. also i saw a thread about masturbation saying its a sin its not its a normal part of puberty.

 

[PennitentMan]

I cant grt my head around some of this . its not normal to be totaly celebate within a marriage. also i saw a thread about masturbation saying its a sin its not its a normal part of puberty.

I’m afraid I’m the wrong person to answer those questions.

If you really want to understand these teachings, keep an open mind and ask a lot of questions. The folk shere will give you the honest, hard-core, no punches pulled Church Teachings on this matters.
Be prepared for the answers not to make sens for a while, but they might.

Good luck!

 

[KenEOTE]

I cant grt my head around some of this . its not normal to be totaly celebate within a marriage. also i saw a thread about masturbation saying its a sin its not its a normal part of puberty.

The act of masturbation is not a sin… but can you masturbate without sinning? The question is what do you think about when you masturbate? Are you objectifying a women, are you lusting? Then yes it is a sin. As far as being celibate within a marriage who is advocating that? I think they are saying be celibate when the women is fertile.

 

[PennitentMan]

The act of masturbation is not a sin… but can you masturbate without sinning? The question is what do you think about when you masturbate? Are you objectifying a women, are you lusting? Then yes it is a sin. As far as being celibate within a marriage who is advocating that? I think they are saying be celibate when the women is fertile.

Actually, they label masturbation as a “gravely disordered act”…so it’s VERY sinfull no matter what. Ignorance and youth have some mittigating circumstances, but it doesn’t take the sin away…it’s evil to Catholics.

And yes, the posters were advocating a total abstinence in marriage…
They are saying that if NFP doesn’t work for you, and you do not want to have kids, the only other alternative is total abstinence in marriage.

Abstinence during the fertile times are basically what NFP is.

They are talking about a sexless marriage if you don’t want kids.

 

[KenEOTE]

Actually, they label masturbation as a “gravely disordered act”…so it’s VERY sinfull no matter what. Ignorance and youth have some mittigating circumstances, but it doesn’t take the sin away…it’s evil to Catholics.

And yes, the posters were advocating a total abstinence in marriage…
They are saying that if NFP doesn’t work for you, and you do not want to have kids, the only other alternative is total abstinence in marriage.

Abstinence during the fertile times are basically what NFP is.

They are talking about a sexless marriage if you don’t want kids.

Well that is just silly talk. Sex was created by God to make the couple one. It is a union that is enjoyable. It is not just to create children. If you don’t want kids just spend a month find out your wife’s cycle and go from there.

 

[blue_skies_1]

Well that is just silly talk. Sex was created by God to make the couple one. It is a union that is enjoyable. It is not just to create children. If you don’t want kids just spend a month find out your wife’s cycle and go from there.

KenEOTE…Hi try having a look through this thread, especially at the opening few posts to better find out the issues we’ve been discussing on here. It’s not quite that simple for everyone.

 

[KenEOTE]

KenEOTE…Hi try having a look through this thread, especially at the opening few posts to better find out the issues we’ve been discussing on here. It’s not quite that simple for everyone.

Oh I did look at the opening statements I commented on them about a hundred posts back.

 

[PennitentMan]

you don’t want kids just spend a month find out your wife’s cycle and go from there.

Blue_skies is right…it’s most certainly not that simple. There are many peolpe with problems with NFP.

Irregular cycles, super-fertility, mis-interpreting fertility signs, etc.
The science gets quite complicated in some folks and if this, only method of “spacing kids” doesn’t work for you, due to the above, and other reasons, then you are forced to live a sexless marriage if you don’t want more kids.

You are right to site the unification aspect of sex. Unfortunately they go hand in hand, and if NFP doesn’t work, then you have to live without the unity that sex brings.

 

[newbetx]

PM has made his choice. A choice God does let us make. I believe he has given up Communion. For now, this works for them. Time will tell if it continues. PM knows the choice he has made and it is up to God to sort it out, not us.

PM. I hope you find your way home someday. I respect your difficult decision (for you) even though I can not agree with it. You and God know your circumstances better than I or others here. I leave it to Him. I take no issue with you stating your story about it not working out for you. People need to understand that it isn’t easy sometimes. And that you left the Church because of it. I am sure many can relate to your story. However, I will debate that NFP (an intinsically neutral process) was to blame. But I won’t do it if you don’t try to blame NFP in the future. Deal?

 

[a_cermak]

One thing I find I can’t agree with is the notion that NFP is a cross one has to bear. Well, putting aside the fact that I don’t believe in the cross anyway, it seems as though one shouldn’t go looking for crosses. If you live long enough (and if you don’t that’s a particular cross in itself), the Divine will present you with plenty of crosses to bear.

 

[newbetx]

Blue_skies is right…it’s most certainly not that simple. There are many peolpe with problems with NFP.

Irregular cycles, super-fertility, mis-interpreting fertility signs, etc.
The science gets quite complicated in some folks and if this, only method of “spacing kids” doesn’t work for you, due to the above, and other reasons, then you are forced to live a sexless marriage if you don’t want more kids.

You are right to site the unification aspect of sex. Unfortunately they go hand in hand, and if NFP doesn’t work, then you have to live without the unity that sex brings.

Agreed. But for MOST people NFP would work fine. And it is possible to find other ways to unify. Others, I know have done it. It’s been done for centuries. I think sex is the “easy” path. Sometimes we’re called to take the harder path. I thank God He has not tested me as he has you.

 

[PennitentMan]

However, I will debate that NFP (an intinsically neutral process) was to blame. But I won’t do it if you don’t try to blame NFP in the future. Deal?

Thanks Newbetx, for understanding.

I’m not sure where you draw the line in debating vs talking about my personal experiences, like I have done here.

I can’t agree not to mention it again, since it was absolutely the cause of serious pains in our marraige…all of which are not gone yet. I will ALWAYS blame NFP and I can’t change that, sorry.

I am done with debating NFP on these forums, been there done that
I will share my experience with people who want to know. It’s my, subjective experience, but I know that I share it with others.

I also don’t post that regularly here anymore anyway, and that will most likely not change.

I also know that I’ll receive resistance from the pro-NFP folks if I do mention it, but I can’t deny what it did to us.

Sorry, Newbetx, no deal.

But I’m not upset, I can understand where you are coming from, and I respect that too.

In Christ,
PM

 

[kage_ar]

Hi kage_are, it was me who referred to Church teaching on stealing. I did not mention the CCC as you know, however I was certain that I read it in a reliable source, just done a google serach and found a clear reference to the idea on this website:

eoccc.org/csfcs/themes/poor.html

If you scroll right down to the Catholic teachings section you will find this assertion is made, under point 69.

Here is the quote:

Does this satisfy you that I am not making up Church teachings on a whim?

It seems a study of the complete document will show that this does not change the doctrine that stealing is a grave sin. If one was at the brink of starvation and no one would assist with food, one might have less culpability for the grave sin of theft of food.

Same as was stated elsewhere, if someone had a gun to your head and they were going to kill you if you did not have contracepted sex, the culpability could be reduced.

I did not accuse you of making up teaching on a whim. I have seen many people misunderstand the Catholic Social Justice teachings, and took time to re-read the section in the CCC that references theft.

 

[prettyflower]

I struggle with the teaching in the very exact way as you do blue skies.

From the moment I knew that the church doesn’t allow tubal ligation even in the face of death, I have felt alone. I had a tubal ligation myself without knowing the exact church teachings. When I found out, I was devastated. I meant no evil when I did it. I thought I was being reasonable. I have four kids and I’m kind of old to have more. In fact I had the last two, voluntarily conceived, with great fear of dying. I feel that the church left me alone with my fears without caring about me.

I need to admit that I always used NFP to space and to have my children. But, I was so scared with the last two that I still practice NFP with the tubal ligation as a back up or viceversa.

I know that death is only a road to get to eternal life and that we, mothers, could die at any moment from anything. But that we are responsible to frotect our lives as humanly possible.

I know that following the Gospel is not an easy road.
But to me, it is like if the church said that medical procedures were morally wrong and that we should only use natural medicine even if we die.

I accept the church teachings even if they go beyond my reasoning. What I’m really struggling with is about teaching this to my children.

I don’t go for contraceptives. What I struggle with is with the fact that a tubal ligation is not allowed even in the face of death.

 

[Sure]

It seems a study of the complete document will show that this does not change the doctrine that stealing is a grave sin. If one was at the brink of starvation and no one would assist with food, one might have less culpability for the grave sin of theft of food.

Same as was stated elsewhere, if someone had a gun to your head and they were going to kill you if you did not have contracepted sex, the culpability could be reduced.

I did not accuse you of making up teaching on a whim. I have seen many people misunderstand the Catholic Social Justice teachings, and took time to re-read the section in the CCC that references theft.

Actually, the Church teaches that the act of taking food when one is starving is not an act of justified stealing or lessened culpability. It is an act of a totally different species than stealing. One is never permitted to steal; it is intrinsically evil. But the instance of taking food when starving is not stealing at all.

Sometimes circumstances can be so significant that they alter the very object of the act (St. Thomas calls these conditio principalis). A good example is with sexual intercourse. Sexual intercourse between married people has a morally good object. Now, change the *conditio principalis *to “unmarried” and the act is fundamentally changed to an act with a morally evil object.

This may seem like splitting hairs, but it is the necessary application of the principle that one can never do evil, even if good may come of it.

Sorry for the tangent…

 

[Sure]

I struggle with the teaching in the very exact way as you do blue skies.

From the moment I knew that the church doesn’t allow tubal ligation even in the face of death, I have felt alone. I had a tubal ligation myself without knowing the exact church teachings. When I found out, I was devastated. I meant no evil when I did it. I thought I was being reasonable. I have four kids and I’m kind of old to have more. In fact I had the last two, voluntarily conceived, with great fear of dying. I feel that the church left me alone with my fears without caring about me.

I need to admit that I always used NFP to space and to have my children. But, I was so scared with the last two that I still practice NFP with the tubal ligation as a back up or viceversa.

I know that death is only a road to get to eternal life and that we, mothers, could die at any moment from anything. But that we are responsible to frotect our lives as humanly possible.

I know that following the Gospel is not an easy road.
But to me, it is like if the church said that medical procedures were morally wrong and that we should only use natural medicine even if we die.

I accept the church teachings even if they go beyond my reasoning. What I’m really struggling with is about teaching this to my children.

I don’t go for contraceptives. What I struggle with is with the fact that a tubal ligation is not allowed even in the face of death.

God bless you…

It is a very difficult teaching. At it’s heart is that one must never do something evil, even if good may come of it. It’s an important principle from an ethical perspective. If it is not upheld, all sorts of very unappealling situations could arise. We must hold that some actions by their very nature (no matter what the intention) are always disordered. These can never be morally chosen.

Of course, as Christians we all face these struggles throughout our lives. Some have more obvious crosses than others. Some have to give up sex, due to potential complications. Some must give up alcohol due to a propensity to abuse it. Some must give up red meat, due to heart disease. In this fallen world, we all have things we must give up. The important thing is to trust the Lord, trust His Church - His body here on earth - and unite our sufferings to Christ on the Cross.