Struggling with converting to Catholicism

[tgGodsway]

This threat is shameful and embarrassing to any serious student of scripture. Instead of putting the emphasis on the word HIS only Church… you should have put it on ONLY church. … because that is what you mean, right?

Millions of non-R-Catholic tradition, believers, are also members of HIS ONLY church. The “consequences” for one knowing the Catholic Church was created by Jesus AND WON’T BE IN HIS CHURCH OR REMAIN IN IT, is a sinful threat un-substantiated by the teachings of Christ and His Church. It is comments like this that make people leave the CC in the first place.

 

[tgGodsway]

I don’t think Mary’s sinlessness had anything whatsoever to do with Jesus’s sinlessness. Only that God might consider it appropriate for His Son to enter the world thru a pure vessel.

I understand your point, but a “pure vessel” is one who is pure in heart and soul. A sinless vessel is altogether different. Mary was full of grace. Grace is unearned favor with God… She was full of God’s favor. Why did she need favor with God, if from conception she was sinless? If she was sinless, there would be no need for grace.

 

[guanophore]

Otherwise I choose inspired scripture to be my primary guide.

It is very Catholic of you to say this!

I’m unclear what you are saying here.

You seem to reject Sacred Tradition because of the fallibility of humans. Yet you also claim you believe that God will answer prayers. If you believe the verse you quoted above, why do you not think that God would preserve His Word where He placed it in the Church?

My views on Christ and salvation are main-line reformed to which millions of people around the world adhere to.

It is a sad fact that so many have fallen into such modern innovations. They are cut off from so much richness in the Church.

The “consequences” for one knowing the Catholic Church was created by Jesus AND WON’T BE IN HIS CHURCH OR REMAIN IN IT, is a sinful threat un-substantiated by the teachings of Christ and His Church.

On the contrary, Jesus only has One Body, and all who are in Christ are members of it. He identifies Himself completely with His Body, the Church. Since there is no salvation outside of Christ, and He is One with His Church, that means there is no salvation outside of the Church. Those who know this, and choose to leave will have consequences.

29 How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Hebrews 10

 

[fhansen]

Sure there would be. We’re put in the same position or state at baptism as Mary was at conception. She was just reborn earlier. Plus graced more during her life, for all of our benefit.

 

[tgGodsway]

no salvation outside of the Church.

Please site me the verse that says what you just said. I agree that outside of “Christ” there is no salvation. And I agree there is only one body to which Christ is the head. But you tweaked your statement to say, outside of the Church. I’m guessing you mean outside of the body of Christ, who is the visible Church in the world. But its hard to tell what you mean here.

 

[tgGodsway]

The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Hebrews 10

This passage is so abused. Notice what the passage said, “The Lord will judge HIS people.” Since God will judge His own possession, it is more than reasonable to assume He’s talking about the Judgment seat of Christ. This judgment is not to determine who is “in Christ.” but to determine what rewards will be given for righteous behavior.

 

[guanophore]

I understand your point, but a “pure vessel” is one who is pure in heart and soul. A sinless vessel is altogether different. Mary was full of grace. Grace is unearned favor with God… She was full of God’s favor. Why did she need favor with God, if from conception she was sinless? If she was sinless, there would be no need for grace.

Yes, she was made pure/sinless by grace. She found favor with God because she chose God. She heard the word of God and obeyed it. No one can be sinless without grace. She was graced from a time in the past. The angel greets her with the title “One who has been graced from a time in the past that carries into the present”. It is the title by which she is known in heaven. She had never heard it before, so she was puzzled.

Adam and Eve were created without sin, but they did not walk in grace. They needed grace to remain pure before God, but relied on their own intellect instead.

Mary did the opposite. She was blessed to carry the Messiah:

Luke 1:42 Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
42 and she exclaimed with a loud cry, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!

27 As he said this, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, “Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts that you sucked!” 28 But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”

She also was blessed because she heard the Word of God and kept it. She cooperated with God’s grace.

 

[tgGodsway]

“One who has been graced from a time in the past that carries into the present”.

I’m not sure what scholar signed off on that. But, again, your premise is that she needed to be sinless to bare a sinless Son. Your belief in this is without biblical support. Who among the inner circle of both Apostles and gospel writers, and immediate family members, believed and expressed their belief that Mary was sinless? No one.

 

[guanophore]

Please site me the verse that says what you just said. I agree that outside of “Christ” there is no salvation. And I agree there is only one body to which Christ is the head. But you tweaked your statement to say, outside of the Church. I’m guessing you mean outside of the body of Christ, who is the visible Church in the world. But its hard to tell what you mean here.

When Jesus confronts Paul for persecuting the Church, Jesus asks him, “why are you persecuting me”.

. 4 I persecuted this Way to the death, binding and delivering to prison both men and women, 5 as the high priest and the whole council of elders bear me witness. From them I received letters to the brethren, and I journeyed to Damascus to take those also who were there and bring them in bonds to Jerusalem to be punished…6 “As I made my journey and drew near to Damascus, about noon a great light from heaven suddenly shone about me. 7 And I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, ‘Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?’ 8 And I answered, ‘Who are you, Lord?’ And he said to me, ‘I am Jesus of Nazareth whom you are persecuting.’ …Acts 22

Persecuting “this Way” (the Church) is the same as persecuting Christ Himself. There is no separation between the Head and the Body. All who are in Christ are members of His One Body.

This passage is so abused. Notice what the passage said, “The Lord will judge HIS people.” Since God will judge His own possession, it is more than reasonable to assume He’s talking about the Judgment seat of Christ. This judgment is not to determine who is “in Christ.” but to determine what rewards will be given for righteous behavior.

It is describing the present life on earth, and the consequences of sin that separates us from Him.

19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the sanctuary by the blood of Jesus, 20 by the new and living way which he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful; 24 and let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, Heb. 10

The Apostle is instructing the disciples about their current spiritual state, and the need to persevere in faith.

 

[guanophore]

26 For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins…

This is not about a future judgment, but a current state. “We sin deliberately” in this life, not in the next!

35 Therefore do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that you may do the will of God and receive what is promised.

37 “For yet a little while,
and the coming one shall come and shall not tarry;
38 but my righteous one shall live by faith,
and if he shrinks back,
my soul has no pleasure in him.”

39 But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and keep their souls.

The believer can fall from grace, shrink back, and be destroyed. Those who shrink back from faith will not please God. Those who do not endure will not receive the promise. I know that you cannot accept this teaching, since you have espoused the Reformed TULIP, but I am writing this so that other readers will know what the Catholic Church teaches, and how it is different from the modern innovations of doctrine.

I’m not sure what scholar signed off on that. But, again, your premise is that she needed to be sinless to bare a sinless Son.

It is simple Greek grammar. But I agree that God could have made her sinless at any point in her life. Whenever it occurred, it was prior to the angelic visit.

Your belief in this is without biblical support. Who among the inner circle of both Apostles and gospel writers, and immediate family members, believed and expressed their belief that Mary was sinless? No one.

Mary has always been held by the Church to be “All Holy”. This is how she is recognized in prayer, liturgy, and early architectual artifacts. You cannot accept any testimony outside of Scripture, so the historical evidence will have no impact. For you, the Jesus abandoned His Church after the NT was written, and failed to correct the wrong beliefs that were held.

There must not have been two or three believers who sought the Truth, so that God could lead them into “all Truth”.

 

[lilypadrees]

I do not buy-in to the premise that says Jesus could not be sinless UNLESS Mary was sinless. Is it not a miracle in of itself that Jesus was sinless through a person who had the stain of original sin?

To me, that is more of a miracle where God alone gets the glory.

God gets all the glory, He made the mother of Jesus sinless before her conception. He didn’t have to make Jesus sinless in Mary’s womb or anyone else’s. Jesus was always sinless since He is God.

 

[tgGodsway]

Persecuting “this Way” (the Church) is the same as persecuting Christ Himself. There is no separation between the Head and the Body. All who are in Christ are members of His One Body.

I agree. So if someone leaves the RCC “tradition and practice” to affiliate with other members of Christ body, and they still embrace and worship Christ, should they be threatened the loss of salvation?

 

[hope]

Well, overcome my argument with a substantive and biblical response and you will win me hope. Otherwise I choose inspired scripture to be my primary guide.

Well, overcome my argument with a substantive and biblical response and you will win me hope. Otherwise I choose inspired scripture to be my primary guide.

Your arguments are based on fallacy. I am not sure you understand what a fallacy is.
fallacy - a false or mistaken idea
The first fallacy you used was
Common Belief it is also called argument to the people
is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition must be true because many or most people believe it, often concisely encapsulated as: “If many believe so, it is so.”
The other one was a strawman argument
Which misrepresents a belief in order to more easily refute it.
Here is the document to the Immaculate Conception
Ineffabilis Deus

I do not buy-in to the premise that says Jesus could not be sinless UNLESS Mary was sinless

Not in the document. Not a reason that is given for the dogma. It is a straw man statement.

 

[tgGodsway]

Common Belief it is also called argument to the people
is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition must be true because many or most people believe it, often concisely encapsulated as: “If many believe so, it is so.”

Yes I understand this, I get it all day long on this site. We are the TRUE and UNIVERSAL CHURCH and that settles it! I am told.

 

[guanophore]

I agree. So if someone leaves the RCC “tradition and practice” to affiliate with other members of Christ body, and they still embrace and worship Christ, should they be threatened the loss of salvation?

I do not care for the phrase “loss of salvation”. I don’t think it makes sense that you would lose something you have not yet obtained. We are working out our salvation during this life, and must endure to the end.

Philippians 3:12 ] Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.

But every soul can fall from grace, and fail to be united with their heavenly inheritance.

 

[tgGodsway]

I do not care for the phrase “loss of salvation”. I don’t think it makes sense that you would lose something you have not yet obtained. We are working out our salvation during this life, and must endure to the end.

Philippians 3:12 ] Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.

But every soul can fall from grace, and fail to be united with their heavenly inheritance.

Yes I understand this is your view. God’s declaration of justification over your life ( which actually is based solely on Christ work on the cross) is “pending” your righteous work, this side of heaven. If you do not do the work, the gavel will slam and God will say guilty!

But the fact of the matter is, eternal life is spoken of as a completed work (in the here and now) and the passages you have quoted here are not speaking to this narrow subject at all. Work out your own salvation=deliverance is in a temporal context, not eternal, lest it contradict what Paul said in Ephesians 2:8 eternal salvation is by “… grace, through faith… v9 NOT OF WORKS”

These two passages are not talking about the same thing, lest Paul is contradicting himself, which under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit he was not.

“Falling from grace” is another of Paul’s phrases. But in the context of what he was talking about falling from grace meant falling into a very strict code of conduct (the Law) as a means to eternal salvation. He said this is a no no.

 

[stpurl]

Everyone, please stop falling into the ‘answering Tgod’s questions’ (because he just keeps ignoring your answers anyway)

He is trying, it appears, to ignore the many times this has been asked of HIM:

He claimed, back earlier, that the teaching of a ‘sinless Mary’ was NEVER part of the Church (later he redefined that to supposedly 'never taught by the apostles) and that it was then ‘put in much much later’.

He was asked, and has never yet responded, to then give proof that the teaching WAS never taught to the Church UNTIL a teaching ‘was put in much later’ by giving the document, author, and date. SURELY if a doctrine which had NEVER been taught for ‘ages and ages’ was suddenly ‘put in’, there would be a record stating, “This is Church teaching” as of year XXXX promulgated by insert name’.

WHERE is the proof? You made the claim, TG. You have been asked to substantiate that claim, many times. Do so, or acknowledge that your claim is baseless.

 

[guanophore]

Yes I understand this is your view. God’s declaration of justification over your life ( which actually is based solely on Christ work on the cross) is “pending” your righteous work, this side of heaven. If you do not do the work, the gavel will slam and God will say guilty!

This is just misinformation that you have been taught by Reformed theology. Catholics don’t believe this, but I have been told we do by numerous Reformed Christians.

You have been misinformed about the role of ergos hagios in salvation. We do the righteous works He created before hand that we should walk in them by and through the grace by which we are saved. Saving faith is faith that works.

Work out your own salvation=deliverance is in a temporal context, not eternal, lest it contradict what Paul said in Ephesians 2:8 eternal salvation is by “… grace, through faith… v9 NOT OF WORKS”

It is temporal and eternal, both. A person who chooses not to work out what is at work within them has a dead faith. A saving faith is a faith that works.

Catholics do not stop reading at v. 9.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God— 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

We should walk in these good works. The grace that saves us is the same grace that produces them in and through us. If a person is not demonstrating His workmanship, then they have a dead faith. Saving faith is a faith that works.

We are not saved by works, but neither are we saved disconnected from these ergos hagios. If a person has saving faith, these good works will be evident in their lives. If they stop being evident, then the person has lost their saving faith.

“Falling from grace” is another of Paul’s phrases. But in the context of what he was talking about falling from grace meant falling into a very strict code of conduct (the Law) as a means to eternal salvation. He said this is a no no.

I don’t think there is any way this statement can be supported by Scripture.

Galatians 5:4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

What he is saying is that at attempt to return to the Law to be justified is falling from grace. Grace and Truth came through Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 3:12 Take care, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.

An evil unbelieving heart will cause a person to fall from grace. One cannot fall away from something to which one was not attached. Reformed Christians may say “they were never saved”, but Scripture clearly refers to those who have been baptized and communed.

 

[guanophore]

WHERE is the proof? You made the claim, TG. You have been asked to substantiate that claim, many times. Do so, or acknowledge that your claim is baseless.

I think it is just obvious that tgG cannot substantiate this. His knowledge of Church history is much too primitive, and he is not motivated to research anything that will not reinforce what he already believes is true through his Reformed tradition.

 

[tgGodsway]

What he is saying is that at attempt to return to the Law to be justified is falling from grace. Grace and Truth came through Jesus Christ.

I agree here! … this is what I meant.

Hebrews 3:12 Take care, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.

The context of why the Hebrew Christians could fall way is identical to that of the Galatians. YOU ARE RIGHT! … they were returning to not only the LAW, but the ritual as well. They were doing it to avoid persecution. Judaism was a legal practice but Christianity was not.

An evil unbelieving heart will cause a person to fall from grace. (AGREED!.. CONSISTANT WITH YOUR CONCLUSIONS ABOVE, THEY FELL BACK INTO THE BELIEF THAT WORKING THE LAW COULD ETERNALLY SAVE THEM.)

One cannot fall away from something to which one was not attached. Reformed Christians may say “they were never saved”, but Scripture clearly refers to those who have been baptized and communed. (YOU MUST BE CONFUSED WITH PURITAN THEOLOGY. MOST REFORMED GROUPS LOOK AT THIS PASSAGE TO SAY THEY WERE AND ARE SAVED. I AM ONE.)

BUT LET’S NOT FORGET THE ON-GOING CONCLUSIONS THAT SURFACE IN HEB. 10. GOD WILL JUDGE “HIS PEOPLE.” JUDGMENT IS NOT RESERVED FOR ONLY THE OBEDIENT CHRISTIANS, ALSO THE DISOBEDIENT. EVERYONE “IN CHRIST” WILL BE JUDGED AND EARN EXACTLY WHAT THEY INVETSTED IN TERMS OF AN INHERITANCE OR A RELINQUISHMENT OF INHERITANCE.