Struggling with mary and saints

[angell1]

it is hard for me to get close to them. i guess i am a bit scared that it somehow sitll might be wrong even though i know intellectually that it’s not

i still have not overcome some of the more flowery and exaggerated titles for mary. i know we don’t worship her but sometimes it always seems like we do

and i’ve noticed that we don’t just ask saints to pray for us, we often directly ask for their help and protection.

also, if they are with God, how do we know that they even hear us since they are not a part of the earthly world anymore?

has anyone else struggled with this before?

 

[plainsongflower]

hello I am not a Catholic yet and part of the reason is that I struggle with this. I struggle with the Hail Holy Queen and the idea of praying to Saint Anthony when something is lost. With my Protestant background I would always just pray to God. I hope there will be some good discussion on this thread because I’d really like to understand.

 

[icehawk]

i think you both should read revelation 5:8, it specifies about the intercession of the holy ones in heaven and also check out 1 Timothy 2:1-3

 

[plainsongflower]

revelation 5:8, and 1 Timothy 2:1-3

Thanks icehawk I am familiar with both of those verses and I still don’t understand. Personally, it’s not the intercession of the saints that I have a problem with. It’s, I dunno how to explain it… “to thee do we send up our sighs” in a Protestant context would be addressed to God so addressing it to Mary feels strange. Also from a Protestant perspective it is often Jesus who is referred to as “our hope” not Mary or any one else. I know people who pray to God when they need a car park. I don’t know who Catholics might pray to in that example but it feels strange to me to ask for intercession in that situation. So why wouldn’t you just pray to God? and as was mentioned in the original post by angell1, sometimes it definitely seems to me as though saints are asked for direct help and protection not just intercession. That is something I don’t understand at all.

angell1: if you feel like what I am talking about is off-topic please let me know and I will start another thread.

 

[angell1]

Thanks icehawk I am familiar with both of those verses and I still don’t understand. Personally, it’s not the intercession of the saints that I have a problem with. It’s, I dunno how to explain it… “to thee do we send up our sighs” in a Protestant context would be addressed to God so addressing it to Mary feels strange. Also from a Protestant perspective it is often Jesus who is referred to as “our hope” not Mary or any one else. I know people who pray to God when they need a car park. I don’t know who Catholics might pray to in that example but it feels strange to me to ask for intercession in that situation. So why wouldn’t you just pray to God? and as was mentioned in the original post by angell1, sometimes it definitely seems to me as though saints are asked for direct help and protection not just intercession. That is something I don’t understand at all.

angell1: if you feel like what I am talking about is off-topic please let me know and I will start another thread.

maybe that’s the problem, we are seeing it through not so catholic lenses. i mean, we think it’s wrong because we were told so right?

you can pray to God btw, it’s not mantadatory to pray to our lady and the saints. popular devotions but you don’t have to.

i’ve been thinking and praying about it in the last little while since iposted this and well, i guess the saints get what ever power they do from God ultimatelyu, like the ability to transmit our prayers. and whatever “help” we get from them is from God also because they need to get it from him first, they can’t do anything on their own.

as for hail holy queen, yeah i know, it’s hyperbolic language but think of how those things lead us to jesus. life because she will lead us to christ, hope because she is a good model christian to follow since she suffered a lot and sacrificed everything for god.

i guess i’m basically answering my own question haha. i hope things like this don’t deter you from catholicism. keep studying.

 

[Beryllos]

it is hard for me to get close to them. i guess i am a bit scared that it somehow sitll might be wrong even though i know intellectually that it’s not

i still have not overcome some of the more flowery and exaggerated titles for mary. i know we don’t worship her but sometimes it always seems like we do

and i’ve noticed that we don’t just ask saints to pray for us, we often directly ask for their help and protection.

also, if they are with God, how do we know that they even hear us since they are not a part of the earthly world anymore?

has anyone else struggled with this before?

Yes, I consider myself a good Catholic, but I do not pray to saints, apart from an occasional Hail Mary.

I do not think there is any commandment that says we must pray to saints, or that it would be a sin not to pray to saints. Correct me if I have that wrong.

I do like to read about the lives of saints. Much can be learned from their life stories.

 

[Sunflake9]

Since I was never a Protestant (I was agnostic for most of my life) I’m glad I never had to wrestle with these issues. It came so easy for me to believe all of what the church teaches. I hope this dosen’t come across wrong but look at it this way. I have always found comfort in knowing that the Catholic Church has the authority to interpret the Bible ( since they put it together) and has been teaching Christianity for nearly 2000 years. Her teachings haven’t changed. There are so many different Protestant churches and their interpertation of the Bible and matters of faith are all so different. Maybe when you feel doubt or uncomfortable just saying to yourself that the Catholic Church has been there from the beginning and if they say it’s just fine to pray to them and ask them for things the it is okay.

To me saying to Mary that she is our hope is really no different than asking a very close friend who may be helping you with a difficult situation to pray for you and telling them that they are your rock or some other complement. God should be your rock and he is. But that doesn’t mean you can’t have other anchors in you life. And you should have other hopes along the way as well. Take comfort as Mary is concerned that she is the most special regular human ever created. And she knows her son better than anyone except God. She always leads us to her son and never anywhere else. So she is fansastic to ask for help. I really hope that didn’t come across wrong and hope it helps.

 

[pablope]

it is hard for me to get close to them. i guess i am a bit scared that it somehow sitll might be wrong even though i know intellectually that it’s not

i still have not overcome some of the more flowery and exaggerated titles for mary. i know we don’t worship her but sometimes it always seems like we do

and i’ve noticed that we don’t just ask saints to pray for us, we often directly ask for their help and protection.

also, if they are with God, how do we know that they even hear us since they are not a part of the earthly world anymore?

has anyone else struggled with this before?

plainsongflower
Re: struggling with mary and saints
hello I am not a Catholic yet and part of the reason is that I struggle with this. I struggle with the Hail Holy Queen and the idea of praying to Saint Anthony when something is lost. With my Protestant background I would always just pray to God. I hope there will be some good discussion on this thread because I’d really like to understand.

The thread below is asking the same thing…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=885165

I will share post 33 of the thread…which I think sums up why we choose to go throug the saints:

^One additional point–it is very much akin to the concept of ‘advocacy’–why Lawyers exist. Lawyers make their living from of knowing how to ask for things; how to phrase questions; how to present evidence; how to ‘build a case’ for the propriety of a legal remedy. Saints have established ‘cred’ within various particular areas–e.g.–St. Jude, wrt Cancer (hence St. Jude Children’s hospital).

Lawyers know the judge, and judge knows the lawyers. They have a rapport with one another; a comfort level; credibility; expertise; and resulting mutual respect and good will. But the Judge dispenses of the legal remedies–as God dispenses the graces.

Hence often times we invoke the saints, by humbly acknowledging that for all of our ‘piety’, and prayer-fulness or what have you…there are others who have come before us, and ‘made a name for themselves’, that commands respect—and therefore, by engaging their good will, we may be better served in articulating our case–measured against God’s Will (that is, that no matter what we pray for, it must be in accordance with, if not in furtherance of, God’s Holy Will).

All though one can certainly proceed pro se, and represent oneself–often, if not usually, engaging an attorney is beneficial to one’s cause. Likewise, we can certainly pray for ourselves, and our own causes–but engaging a Saint, or ‘the Saints’, sometimes helps our ‘cause’.

(…and the retainer fee for the saints is just right! or should I say, quite reasonable–as although there is no ‘charge’ for engaging the Saints, there usually is a ‘conscience tax’ where we feel inclined to honor the saint more fully, after ‘engaging them’, and to refer others to the Saint–thereby further buttressing their ‘cred’).

Continuing with the analogy, in the legal profession there is a saying:

The attorney who represents himself, has a fool for a client.

Now I wouldn’t go so far to say that "…the ‘saint’ who represents himself, has a fool for a cause’–but I would submit, that one is potentially failing to avail themselves of great potential and cred to buttress their petitions and causes, by neglecting the Saints in Heaven, as one approaches the Blessed Trinity, with their prayers.

…but ultimately, it is a matter of humility and respect.

Humility in that we acknowledge our own lowliness, and poverty—in terms of stature, in the Realm of Heaven; and

Respect, for the proven friends of Christ, who, during their respective lifetimes, and by their respective lives, established themselves as noteworthy and memorable, in their commitment to Christ (i.e.–their legacy).

And in this thread…one reponse echoes the last part I have put in blue above, and i share:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=11012687#post11012687

In hierarchical terms, Mary (human) is higher than us, but infinitely lower than Christ (God and man).

*Since the ancients understood their lowlinness in relation to God much better than we do, they naturally were attracted to the 100% human mother, whereby Christ could be accessed through her compassion and lowliness. Men knew they were lowly and unworthy. Mary was a human being, sharing in our lowliness. Yet she was also the Mother of God, and she had her son’s ear! Thus, many were instinctively drawn to approach God through His mother.

Today, man is arrogant. We don’t understand our own unworthiness in relation to God. Thus, for many, praying through Mary to Christ is not intuitive. But to men of the 1st and 2nd centuries, and later, it was just common sense. This Tradition has been handed on for 2000 years…
*

And is practriced to this day by Catholics and Orthodox.

 

[elohimrules]

Some good books that are out that may help on this topic are Angels and Saints by Scott Hahn and Hail Holy Queen by him as well. A convert from a protestant background he really helped explain these teachings of the Catholic faith to me as I also returned to Catholicism from the protestant faith.

 

[plainsongflower]

To me saying to Mary that she is our hope is really no different than asking a very close friend who may be helping you with a difficult situation to pray for you and telling them that they are your rock or some other complement.

hahaha maybe my problem is I’d never say that to anybody

Thank you, you make a good point about trust.

 

[plainsongflower]

we are seeing it through not so catholic lenses.

Yes, I agree with you. and it’s perfectly okay to answer your own questions

This whole journey has been a systematic restructuring of my world-view more than anything else. Sometimes I can’t understand something until after I’ve accepted it to some extent. Quite counter-intuitive but it’s been amazing.

 

[plainsongflower]

The attorney who represents himself, has a fool for a client.

hahahahahahahaha that is a great saying

Thank you so much for that I will definitely check out those other threads. Looking at it all from a slightly different angle now

 

[plainsongflower]

Some good books that are out that may help on this topic are Angels and Saints by Scott Hahn and Hail Holy Queen by him as well. A convert from a protestant background he really helped explain these teachings of the Catholic faith to me as I also returned to Catholicism from the protestant faith.

brilliant! thank you very much

 

[Trishie]

You are not actaully obliged to use ‘flowery’ names for the Mother of our Saviour.
I seldom call he anything but “Mother Mary”.

Perhaps it might help you to feel less uncomfortable about Mary, if you consider her as the one who nurtured fed, clothed, bathed, the baby and toddler Jesus, and who taught Him to speak, smiled when He took his first steps, delighted in His first smile, and cared for him and raised him to adulthood. He loved her, loves her. How can we, in loving Him, not love whom He loves?

Jesus allowed Mary to talk Him into His first public miracle!

Jesus demonstrated His approval of Mary’s intercession, but accepting it, and responding to it:

In scripture we see the first example of Mary’s intercession
She was in the presence of God Incarnate, the Lord Jesus,
and He not only accepted it,
but he acceded to her request and grant the first recorded miracle of Jesus,
even though He had protested that it was not yet time for signs, miracles.

Therefore we have Jesus own approval of His Mother as intercessor for others in need.
It wasn’t even a matter of life or death,
just possible loss of face of the hosts,
of the wedding feast of Cana.

John 2 Jesus Changes Water Into Wine
" 1 On the third day a wedding took place at Cana in Galilee. Jesus’ mother was there, 2 and Jesus and his disciples had also been invited to the wedding. 3 When the wine was gone, Jesus’ mother said to him, “They have no more wine.”
4 “Woman,[a] why do you involve me?” Jesus replied. “My hour has not yet come.”
5 His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”
6 Nearby stood six stone water jars, the kind used by the Jews for ceremonial washing, each holding from twenty to thirty gallons.
7 Jesus said to the servants, “Fill the jars with water”; so they filled them to the brim.
8 Then he told them, “Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet.”
They did so, 9 and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside 10 and said, “Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now.”
11 What Jesus did here in Cana of Galilee was the first of the signs through which he revealed his glory; and his disciples believed in him."

Who can argue with Jesus who responded to His mother’s faith and intercession for others in need.

 

[Trishie]

You rejoiced for the blessing given to you Mary, and for those given to all persons through the Child whom you carried in your womb—for we also are descendants of Abraham, by faith. [Romans 4:12] You, in this loving concern for others, interceded for their needs even while on earth, exhorting them to obedient faith like your own, “do whatever He tells you”. He initially reproved you—“My hour is not yet come.” [John 2:4, 5] However, He granted your humble request.

Woman of faith, although your life held many perplexities and seeming inconsistencies, you treasured and pondered these brief manifestations of divine action in your Son’s life without losing your humble trust. [Luke 2:19-20] For it might have seemed that God could make better arrangements for the conditions of His divine Son’s birth! When you heard of the terrible slaughter of the innocent infants, intended to include Jesus, this massacre devastated your maternal heart on behalf of those other mothers. You might have said, “How can God allow this?” When you fled as a refugee with all the grief, displacement and destitution that refugee families may suffer you still kept faith. Again, you trusted, as He hung dying horribly wounded and humiliated upon a criminal’s cross.

Mary, we thank you for your care of that incomparable Child, whose coming was foretold centuries before. We thank you—for the Child whom you bore and nurtured is Saviour of all humankind! Thank you for your faith, for your obedience, for your faithfulness through all those years when the extraordinary promise made to you might have seemed lost in daily routine.

Mother Mary you went through so much in your life as mother.
Through Joseph’s kindness and the angel’s visit you escaped stoning;
then almost ready to give birth you travelled over rough roads to a strange town and gave birth amongst animal smells in a stable, and had only a food trough as a cradle for your precious Son. The news came through that Herod was murdering baby boys in his attempt to destroy your Son, so you, Joseph and the little One escaped to Egypt, where you had no relatives or friends, and didn’t speak the language, however despite these handicaps, Joseph had the find work to support Jesus and you. Eventually you and your Son and Joseph returned to your native country, but to a different area where Joseph was again out of work until he could build up his business…no social security…

You lived by faith, in ordinary life well lived, working hard, sewing, mending, washing clothes in the river, no modern appliances, no running water.
Jesus scared you by disappearing for three days when He was twelve, but after that He settled again quietly, and no doubt learned Joseph’s trade.

But eventually He threw in His work and income, and lived an insecure life, traveling, moving amongst good and bad people. You heard the talk, good and bad, and rumours that made you fearful for His safety and His life. You understood why, but a mother, when faced by her son’s arrest, torture, and a death reserved for criminals, how absolutely devastated in mute misery, your heart. How grieved were you also, to see no one else come as you anxiously glanced down the road to see if any of His closest friends, and His chosen ones, other than John, would come to stand by Him, and of the crowds that had hailed him a few days before, only a handful of women, and John, and the executioners were there… His abandonment was so painful to your already lacerated heart and mind shocked with grief though your spirit remained faithful and resolute.

Mother, our Mother, given to us from the Cross by Jesus,
pray for us.

 

[Trishie]

And the saints, our sisters and brothers in heaven?
If you would ask me as a prayer warrior to pray for you, are not those in heaven any less your sister (or brother) in Christ than I am? Why not ask their prayer also, especially those whom the Church have declared to be saints, and therefore you can be confident they are with God.

Like the saints, the angels are aware of us and care for us from their place in heaven. We know that the Angels come to aid us
“Are not all angels spirits in the divine service, sent to serve for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation?” Hebrews 1:14

“It is God’s will that in this world souls shall dispense to each other, by prayer, the treasures of Heaven, in order that when they reach their everlasting Home they may love one another with grateful hearts, and with an affection far in excess of that which reigns in the most perfect family on earth.” “I have often thought that perhaps I owe all the graces, with which I am laden, to some little soul whom I shall know only in Heaven.” [Saint Therese of Lisieux]

As it happens, I have a relation who is a canonized saint, which does bring the sense of our relationship with the saints in heaven closer on a personal level. All of them have families, and are family with us here on earth.

 

[fred_conty]

it is hard for me to get close to them. i guess i am a bit scared that it somehow sitll might be wrong even though i know intellectually that it’s not

i still have not overcome some of the more flowery and exaggerated titles for mary. i know we don’t worship her but sometimes it always seems like we do

and i’ve noticed that we don’t just ask saints to pray for us, we often directly ask for their help and protection.

also, if they are with God, how do we know that they even hear us since they are not a part of the earthly world anymore?

has anyone else struggled with this before?

In the Apostle’s creed, we say “I believe…in the communion of saints…”. Communion of saints not only means those who have been transferred to heaven, but those still on earth too. It means we are one body of Christ, the mystical body. We are brothers and sisters in this body, one with one another, sons and daughters of the same heavenly Father, one family with the life of the Holy Spirit pulsating thru us by grace.

Jesus said that the amount of love we have for him is measured by the love we show to one another. Jesus said that if you love me, keep my commandments, which is to love one another. He told us he is the vine and we are the branches, that we are one.
We are like a body with various parts as St. Paul said. He went on to say, can the eye say to the nose I don’t need you? And can the arm say to the fingers I don’t need you. We are all dependent on one another for support and help. All members of the same body interelate and intereact to each other for the good of all.

It is the Father’s will that we love and support one another. And so the saints are a part of us, and we are a part of them. Can we forget them or they forget us? Is it wise to deny that we are part of something larger than ourselves to which we belong?

Each and every Mass the priest, and with him, the people pray for every catholic in every part of the world. It is global and universal, for we are one no matter where we are, and always are mindful of each other’s needs.

And so to pray to a saint is talking to a brother/sister who is one with us, joined by the love and grace of Jesus Christ. Companions and brothers on our journey to help us on our way. What a wonderful thing Jesus has given us. If there were a better way, Jesus would have thought of it.

And if our Father wanted us to be brother/sisters, then he would certainly have willed the means to carry this out by giving them the ability to hear us when we speak with them.

And one last question, what mother or father would object to their children talking to one another in a kind way? Isn’t that what would really please them when their children care for one another? Speaking and interrelating is what makes a family.

In the Apostle’s creed, we say “I believe…in the communion of saints…”.

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.

 

[angell1]

Yes, I agree with you. and it’s perfectly okay to answer your own questions

This whole journey has been a systematic restructuring of my world-view more than anything else. Sometimes I can’t understand something until after I’ve accepted it to some extent. Quite counter-intuitive but it’s been amazing.

i believe it was st. augustine who said “i believed and then i understood” sounds like what you are expeirencing

 

[Nate123]

it is hard for me to get close to them. i guess i am a bit scared that it somehow sitll might be wrong even though i know intellectually that it’s not

i still have not overcome some of the more flowery and exaggerated titles for mary. i know we don’t worship her but sometimes it always seems like we do

and i’ve noticed that we don’t just ask saints to pray for us, we often directly ask for their help and protection.

also, if they are with God, how do we know that they even hear us since they are not a part of the earthly world anymore?

has anyone else struggled with this before?

"The Church recognizes that God is not protective of his own glory. In truth, his glory is that we share as fully as logically possible in the life and work of God. He loves us so much that he has decided to give everything to us that can possibly be given.

Saint Therese of Lisieux, Doctor of the Church, writes:

“It is because [God] has so incomprehensible a love for us that he wills to do nothing without us. The Creator of the universe awaits the prayer of a poor little soul to save other souls redeemed like it at the price of all his blood.”

The practice of asking the intercession of the saints is the simple recognition that God’s nature is infinite generosity rather than infinite protection of his own prerogatives. We honor God’s true nature as love when we honor what he has done in the saints and when we ask for their help. He wants each of them and us to have as much glory as he can possibly give.

Consider that even when we pray directly to God, the prayer is always answered through some creature.

“We can never give too great prominence to the Scholastic principle that God never does through Himself what may be achieved through created causality… For any result which does not require actually infinite power, God will sooner create a new spiritual being capable of producing that result than produce it Himself.” (Abbot Anscar Vonier, The Human Soul)

To misunderstand God’s desire that we share in his glory is to misunderstand the gospel. Most Christians have not yet heard the good news."
…

“And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as one, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me.” John 17:22-23" NewApologetics.com

 

[JRKH]

it is hard for me to get close to them. i guess i am a bit scared that it somehow sitll might be wrong even though i know intellectually that it’s not

i still have not overcome some of the more flowery and exaggerated titles for mary. i know we don’t worship her but sometimes it always seems like we do

and i’ve noticed that we don’t just ask saints to pray for us, we often directly ask for their help and protection.

also, if they are with God, how do we know that they even hear us since they are not a part of the earthly world anymore?

has anyone else struggled with this before?

So many good answers already - don’t know what I can add except to say…

Yes I have struggled with this - and to an extent, I still do.

First let me say that there is nothing in Catholic teaching that requires to pray to the saints. So my first piece of advice is this - If it is a struggle, then don’t do it.
Pray in the manner most comfortable for you.

Then - continue reading and studying on this simply as part of learning more about the Church. As time goes on you will probably find yourself more comfortable with prayer to the saints and it will come naturally.

The most important thing is to not stress over it…

hello I am not a Catholic yet and part of the reason is that I struggle with this. I struggle with the Hail Holy Queen and the idea of praying to Saint Anthony when something is lost. With my Protestant background I would always just pray to God. I hope there will be some good discussion on this thread because I’d really like to understand.

In regards to the “Hail Holy Queen” prayer, let me recommend THIS THREAD from a while back. It really answers a lot of the question…

Overall - the same as I said above - there is no requirement that we pray to the saints in our private devotions. So if one is uncomfortable with it - just don’t do it. Continue to pray directly to the Father ( that is what I do mostly too).

Peace
James