Struggling with my Faith

[marci]

Lately, I have had a really hard time reconciling the things I was brought up to believe with the modern thinking of the church on several issues. I guess I’m not so much struggling with my faith as I am dishearted by the modern church.

These are the issues I find myself questioning:

1. I feel like the church has become political, caring more about appearing “with the times” or otherwise “cosmopolitan” to the modern culture. Why doesn’t the church come out with fists raised about issues such as abortion? Why aren’t pro-abortion politicians publicly excommunicated?
2. I feel the church has become Socialist, advocating more and more the redistribution of income from “wealthy” countries to “poorer” countries without demanding certain moral standards, such as freedom of religion, outlawing abortion, and human rights from said countries? Liberation theology comes to mind.
3. I feel the church no longer reguards itself as THE salvation for mankind. “As long as your a good person, you’ll go to heaven, reguardless of the fact that you don’t believe in Jesus and refuse to adhear to the sacraments, it’s OK. And far be it from us to tell you that your soul may be in danger of hell. We do not judge you or anything you do for that matter.”
4. I struggle to believe and find truth in the idea that the church does not change. I was involved in a discussion on capital punishment in another thread and am convinced that the church has changed it’s teaching on this matter. I also believe the church has changed it’s teaching on divorce. They may say, “no, not divorce it’s annulment, it’s different”. Tell that to the children left in the wake of an ever number of increasing split catholic families. Whatever happened to “What God has joined let no man put assunder?”
5. I do not understand how NFP is not the same thing as birth control such as the condom. The intent, in both circumstances, it to prevent pregnancy. Plus, according to the NFP people, it is actually more effective than condoms, so one would think that the possibility for the creation of life is greater using a condom than using NFP. I have heard all of the arguments for why NFP is not birth control, but they are nonsensical to me. They are not convincing to me in a rational way.
6. I don’t understand why the mass had to be changed. It seems that in the last few decades understanding and belief in matters such as the Real Pressance, need for confession, and the Sunday obligation, have gotten worse, not better. Why did the church abandon the old ways that instilled much greater reverance, than the t-shirt and flip flop life teen masses of today.
   When will the church learn that no matter how cool you try to be, to teenagers you will still be just an old hippie? Kids don’t need more friends, they need parents. The flock needs shephards, stop watering everthing down in order to fill the pews so as not to “offend” anyone. In my opinion, more people in this world NEED to be offended. They NEED to feel shame, it is a leap on the road to reconciliation.
7. I have trouble believing that muslims worship the same God.
8. I fear it is a matter of time before, priests are married, woman are priests, and homosexuals are married.
9. I am beginning to doubt that the church I now follow is the One True Faith founded by Christ.

The only thing keeping me in the church at this moment (well, two things) ; the Eucharist and my love for Mary. These two things I can find nowhere else. So I stay out of fear for my soul should I leave. I stay out of obligation, but I remain in great saddness and with little hope of ever finding joy in my church.

Please pray for me, I have four children that I am bringing up in the church. I am teaching them the traditions; rosaries, novenas, fasting, etc. I take them to mass. They go to a catholic school. I am going through the motions, but my heart is not in it.

 

[Didi]

1. I do not understand how NFP is not the same thing as birth control such as the condom. The intent, in both circumstances, it to prevent pregnancy. Plus, according to the NFP people, it is actually more effective than condoms, so one would think that the possibility for the creation of life is greater using a condom than using NFP. I have heard all of the arguments for why NFP is not birth control, but they are nonsensical to me. They are not convincing to me in a rational way.

I’m sorry for the struggles you are going through. I have been there through many of them myself. You are in my prayers.

I’m going to just address #5 for now (my health and energy are limited).

Natural Family Planning is just that – natural. It is not artificial birth control. God gave a woman her cycle – fertile and infertile times. Using NFP is just learning the cycle and then the couple decides together whether or not to have marital relations during the fertile period. But no artificial barrier is used to prevent conception other than abstinence.

With artificial birth control (ABC), the woman or man uses some means to block the possibility of conception, and in some cases the ABC actually causes an abortion of a fertilized fetus, so it isn’t really preventing a pregnancy but ending one.

With NFP, you are using the tools God gave our bodies, and the man and woman decide together. Many couples feel this also bonds them closer together since it’s not just the woman’s repsonsibility or the man’s but it theirs together as a couple.

As a Christian, with ABC you are essentially saying to God that you give Him control over every aspect of your life except your fertility. You are blocking the possibility of a new life altogether. “God you can have my heart, soul, and mind, but not my uterus!” Sounds kinda silly, huh?

With NFP, you still leave the door open for miracles since there is no artificial barrier. (Say you have relations the day after your fertile period is supposed to be over, but conception still occurs). So, you are leaving yourselves open to the possibility of a new life blossoming from your love for each other if God so desires.

Fr. Frank Pavone of Priests for Life says that ABC is you closing the window on God. NFP is still leaving that window open if God chooses for you to have a child.

Hope this helps a little on this issue.

 

[thomasf]

1. Don’t see that.
2. Don’t see that either.
3. Never, ever heard that from the church. Did you miss the big hoopla in August when the church reasserted what it has always taught, and all the protestants threw a big fit?
4. The church still discourages divorce. And annulments are hard to come by in valid marriages.
5. NFP still allows for the transmission of life. Condoms, other contraceptives (against conception) do not. NFP just means you don’t have sex when a woman is most fertile. When you do have sex, you’re still transmitting sperm from male to female, and you’re still open to life.
6. Huh? Really?
7. Me too.
8. Nope, ain’t gonna happen. Infallible statements and all.
9. Then what faith is?

Sounds like to me you’re not listening to what the church is saying, but rather what other people think the church is saying, or what you believe the church is saying. Sounds like you’re letting your perceptions of what the church has become cloud what the church actually is. And if that’s the case, I can see why you would think that the church doesn’t have the truth. Because the church you describe doesn’t sound true to me either. Problem is, that’s not the catholic church that you described.

 

[marci]

1. Never, ever heard that from the church. Did you miss the big hoopla in August when the church reasserted what it has always taught, and all the protestants threw a big fit?

 

[marci]

With NFP, you still leave the door open for miracles since there is no artificial barrier. (Say you have relations the day after your fertile period is supposed to be over, but conception still occurs). So, you are leaving yourselves open to the possibility of a new life blossoming from your love for each other if God so desires.

Fr. Frank Pavone of Priests for Life says that ABC is you closing the window on God. NFP is still leaving that window open if God chooses for you to have a child.

Hope this helps a little on this issue.

I hear you, it’s just that it’s hard for me to believe that if God wanted a miracle a thin piece of rubber (or whatever it’s made of)
could stop Him. I guess for me, it boils down to the intention behind the act. If you deliberately take the life of another human being to steal his car, it’s murder. If you take the life of another during a struggle in which you are about to be killed, it’s self defense. The 1st scenario is a grave sin, the second is not. The intention behind the act determines whether it is sinful or not. If you steal a car because you just wanted it, vs. stealing meat to feed your starving family. Intention. Why wouldn’t it apply here as well?

 

[Mike_Brick]

Lately, I have had a really hard time reconciling the things I was brought up to believe with the modern thinking of the church on several issues. I guess I’m not so much struggling with my faith as I am dishearted by the modern church.

We all share with you, (some more, some less), the concerns you highlighted in your post. Rather than reply to each one, let me share this with you. The Devil, the great confuser, the “Father of Lies”, works on each of us in different ways, knowing our “soft spots”, (those areas in our life where we are vulnerable to his deception). The issues you raised are obviously yours.

It is obvious from your post that you are rock solid on the basic tenents of our faith, and the Dogma of the Church. Some of the things you cited as disturbing for you, you described as being done by “the church” does this or that, when in fact “The Church” does not teach or do those things. But clearly some churches you have experience with do what you describe, but they are not “The Church”, even though they appear connected to it. I too have heard from Catholic priests the heresy of Sincretism, or one religion is as good as another, and as long as you believe what ever you believe with all your strength you’ll be okay. That is not Church teaching, just misguided churchmen who will account to God one day for how they “fed the sheep”.

I also see in your post your concern about the ways other people practice their faith, when it is your responsibility to pay attention to your own relationship with God, and those people entrusted to your care. None of us can change anyone but our selves, but we can influence others, and have a responsibility to pray for others as well.

I have lived both pre and post Vatican II, and do not believe the poor training of Catholics we have seen in the past 30 years has anything to do with changes in the mass. But I agree with you that some church people do water down our faith to make it more palatable to people, but they do so at their own peril. I do believe we are already seeing a change, an improvement in the way we catechize our youth in many parts of our country, and am optimistic about our future as the Church of Jesus Christ, which He protects from the Devil until the end of time! Have confidence in the protection of the Holy Spirit, He keeps His promises! Please don’t let the devil drive a wedge between you and God and the “Body of Christ”, the Church.

Other posters have given you, and will continue to give you good answers on each of your specifics, but I just wanted to help you look at the over all concerns you have shared with us. Relax Marci, as Fr. John Corapi says we have read the book, (the Bible), and we know how it ends. We will win, (salvation), if we perservere!

Please don’t just go through the motions, focus on Jesus, and Him alone and raise your kids that way too. Remember the Church is not a resort for saints, but a hospital for sinners.

Peace Be With You
Mike

 

[Bishopite]

[marci;2798132]

1. I feel like the church has become political, caring more about appearing “with the times” or otherwise “cosmopolitan” to the modern culture. Why doesn’t the church come out with fists raised about issues such as abortion? Why aren’t pro-abortion politicians publicly excommunicated?

They are already excommunicated it’s called latae sententiae (self excommunication), as they’ve already excommunicated themselves out of the Catholic Church. They are not formally excommunicated because for one reason that is because they are already “rebells” againts the Church, if a Bishop excommunicated them, they would just make it into a political event for their own personal gain. I do agree with you that I wish other Bishops would do that more often. Although I did hear of some nuns getting excommunicated in Canada recently, so it does happen, just not nearly enough.

1. I feel the church has become Socialist, advocating more and more the redistribution of income from “wealthy” countries to “poorer” countries without demanding certain moral standards, such as freedom of religion, outlawing abortion, and human rights from said countries? Liberation theology comes to mind.

Rome condemns Liberation theology and the Church doesn’t support any particular political system, but does lean toward capitalism, but even that isn’t perfect and has its flaws too.

1. I feel the church no longer reguards itself as THE salvation for mankind. “As long as your a good person, you’ll go to heaven, reguardless of the fact that you don’t believe in Jesus and refuse to adhear to the sacraments, it’s OK. And far be it from us to tell you that your soul may be in danger of hell. We do not judge you or anything you do for that matter.”

Some priests/bishops do act this way unfortunately, but read the Catechism it is will give you the truth because it conveys Biblical truths. And listen to EWTN or Catholic Answers live where you will find true orthodox Catholic teaching.

1. I struggle to believe and find truth in the idea that the church does not change. I was involved in a discussion on capital punishment in another thread and am convinced that the church has changed it’s teaching on this matter. I also believe the church has changed it’s teaching on divorce. They may say, “no, not divorce it’s annulment, it’s different”. Tell that to the children left in the wake of an ever number of increasing split catholic families. Whatever happened to “What God has joined let no man put assunder?”

The Church has NOT changed it’s position on divorce. An annulment is proving that a marriage was not a sacramental marriage, therefore for Catholics, it is not a valid marriage in the eyes God.

1. I do not understand how NFP is not the same thing as birth control such as the condom. The intent, in both circumstances, it to prevent pregnancy. Plus, according to the NFP people, it is actually more effective than condoms, so one would think that the possibility for the creation of life is greater using a condom than using NFP. I have heard all of the arguments for why NFP is not birth control, but they are nonsensical to me. They are not convincing to me in a rational way.

NFP and contraception are totally different. With NFP the couple does nothing and doing nothing is NOT a sin in a marriage. If a couple chooses not to engage in the marital act for a time do you think God requires them to? Contraception IS engaging in an act which the specific intent to block life. Where NFP doesn’t block anything because they are doing anything.
Contraception is like this: If you are not wanting to go to Chicago, then why are you taking the train?
NFP is like this: We are not wanting to go Chicago therefore we are NOT taking the train.

Please pray for me, I have four children that I am bringing up in the church. I am teaching them the traditions; rosaries, novenas, fasting, etc. I take them to mass. They go to a catholic school. I am going through the motions, but my heart is not in it.

Yes I will. May you never forget, Matthew 16:18-19. Jesus promised that the gates of hell would NOT prevail against His Church and history gives ample evidence to the Catholic Church’s inception as the Church Jesus founded.

 

[MH84]

1. I feel the church no longer reguards itself as THE salvation for mankind. “As long as your a good person, you’ll go to heaven, reguardless of the fact that you don’t believe in Jesus and refuse to adhear to the sacraments, it’s OK. And far be it from us to tell you that your soul may be in danger of hell. We do not judge you or anything you do for that matter.”
2. I don’t understand why the mass had to be changed. It seems that in the last few decades understanding and belief in matters such as the Real Pressance, need for confession, and the Sunday obligation, have gotten worse, not better. Why did the church abandon the old ways that instilled much greater reverance, than the t-shirt and flip flop life teen masses of today.
   When will the church learn that no matter how cool you try to be, to teenagers you will still be just an old hippie? Kids don’t need more friends, they need parents. The flock needs shephards, stop watering everthing down in order to fill the pews so as not to “offend” anyone. In my opinion, more people in this world NEED to be offended. They NEED to feel shame, it is a leap on the road to reconciliation.
3. I have trouble believing that muslims worship the same God.
4. I fear it is a matter of time before, priests are married, woman are priests, and homosexuals are married.

1. Isn’t God the Salvation of mankind. Only God can judge, the Church should guide. Did the Church ever regard itself as “THE salvation for mankind”? The Church can only give what it has received from God.
2. I generally agree here, but what are you doing about it yourself?
3. They worship the one God, but they do not believe in the concept of the Trinity. They think that the belief in the Trinity is polytheism. Are you being influenced by what Americans and the west refer to the war on terrorism being lead by certain muslims and that they call God, Allah?
4. Me too, at least in regards to married priests and maybe the ordination of women.

 

[Didi]

If you steal a car because you just wanted it, vs. stealing meat to feed your starving family. Intention. Why wouldn’t it apply here as well?

The intention of the marital union is to be both unitive (bringing the couple together in their love) and procreative (possibly creating another life). By using artificial birth control, you take away the procreative aspect.

Authors Scott and Kimberly Hahn write about their struggle with this issue in his book “Rome Sweet Home” which chronicles their journey into the Catholic Church. It might be a good book for you to read regarding some of your own frustrations and doubts about the Catholic Church.

 

[1234electrik]

1. I totally agree with you. NFP is no different from contraception because it isn’t open to life if you have sex when a woman’s infertile, it’s purely for enjoyment. The woman could become pregnant if you get the timing wrong, just as the condom could break, but they are both non open to life unless something goes wrong, and the intent is to be not open to life. To truly be open to life the couple would have to have sex whenever they feel like it, without any contraception. NFP is just another form of contraception. So I use contraception in my marriage by not completing - not having an orgasm. It could go wrong, I could not be able to control myself and carry on and ejaculate inside of her. NFP is no different. In both cases the intent is to not be open to life.

 

[1234electrik]

1. Another thing, when a woman is most fertile she has the strongest sexual desire, so to deprive her of sex when she most want’s and would enjoy it it depriving her of the gift god gave her. My point of view is it’s between a husband and wife what they want to do in their marriage, with all of the STIs out there, if a couple save themselves for marriage, then they should have fun.

 

[1234electrik]

The intention of the marital union is to be both unitive (bringing the couple together in their love) and procreative (possibly creating another life). By using artificial birth control, you take away the procreative aspect.

Authors Scott and Kimberly Hahn write about their struggle with this issue in his book “Rome Sweet Home” which chronicles their journey into the Catholic Church. It might be a good book for you to read regarding some of your own frustrations and doubts about the Catholic Church.

By NFP you also take away the procreative aspect, because if you’re having sex when the woman is infertile, your intent is not to make her pregnant, and she is highly unlikely to get pregnant. Exactly the same as using a condom, and if you disagree with using an “artificial” method, then the couple could stop before orgasm.

 

[1234electrik]

They are already excommunicated it’s called latae sententiae (self excommunication), as they’ve already excommunicated themselves out of the Catholic Church. They are not formally excommunicated because for one reason that is because they are already “rebells” againts the Church, if a Bishop excommunicated them, they would just make it into a political event for their own personal gain. I do agree with you that I wish other Bishops would do that more often. Although I did hear of some nuns getting excommunicated in Canada recently, so it does happen, just not nearly enough.

Rome condemns Liberation theology and the Church doesn’t support any particular political system, but does lean toward capitalism, but even that isn’t perfect and has its flaws too.

Some priests/bishops do act this way unfortunately, but read the Catechism it is will give you the truth because it conveys Biblical truths. And listen to EWTN or Catholic Answers live where you will find true orthodox Catholic teaching.

The Church has NOT changed it’s position on divorce. An annulment is proving that a marriage was not a sacramental marriage, therefore for Catholics, it is not a valid marriage in the eyes God.

NFP and contraception are totally different. With NFP the couple does nothing and doing nothing is NOT a sin in a marriage. If a couple chooses not to engage in the marital act for a time do you think God requires them to? Contraception IS engaging in an act which the specific intent to block life. Where NFP doesn’t block anything because they are doing anything.
Contraception is like this: If you are not wanting to go to Chicago, then why are you taking the train?
NFP is like this: We are not wanting to go Chicago therefore we are NOT taking the train.

Yes I will. May you never forget, Matthew 16:18-19. Jesus promised that the gates of hell would NOT prevail against His Church and history gives ample evidence to the Catholic Church’s inception as the Church Jesus founded.

With NFP the couple are doing something, they are working out when she’s infertile and then only having sex during that time. Using a condom may be used with the “specific intent to block life,” and so is NFP - people practice NFP with the “specific intent to block life.” No difference at all.

 

[1234electrik]

I’m sorry for the struggles you are going through. I have been there through many of them myself. You are in my prayers.

I’m going to just address #5 for now (my health and energy are limited).

Natural Family Planning is just that – natural. It is not artificial birth control. God gave a woman her cycle – fertile and infertile times. Using NFP is just learning the cycle and then the couple decides together whether or not to have marital relations during the fertile period. But no artificial barrier is used to prevent conception other than abstinence.

With artificial birth control (ABC), the woman or man uses some means to block the possibility of conception, and in some cases the ABC actually causes an abortion of a fertilized fetus, so it isn’t really preventing a pregnancy but ending one.

With NFP, you are using the tools God gave our bodies, and the man and woman decide together. Many couples feel this also bonds them closer together since it’s not just the woman’s repsonsibility or the man’s but it theirs together as a couple.

As a Christian, with ABC you are essentially saying to God that you give Him control over every aspect of your life except your fertility. You are blocking the possibility of a new life altogether. “God you can have my heart, soul, and mind, but not my uterus!” Sounds kinda silly, huh?

With NFP, you still leave the door open for miracles since there is no artificial barrier. (Say you have relations the day after your fertile period is supposed to be over, but conception still occurs). So, you are leaving yourselves open to the possibility of a new life blossoming from your love for each other if God so desires.

Fr. Frank Pavone of Priests for Life says that ABC is you closing the window on God. NFP is still leaving that window open if God chooses for you to have a child.

Hope this helps a little on this issue.

Non-orgasmic sex is a way to avoid using an artificial barrier, which is the same as NFP. It makes no sense to allow one but condemn the other, it’s illogical.

 

[fix]

1. I totally agree with you. NFP is no different from contraception because it isn’t open to life if you have sex when a woman’s infertile, it’s purely for enjoyment. The woman could become pregnant if you get the timing wrong, just as the condom could break, but they are both non open to life unless something goes wrong, and the intent is to be not open to life. To truly be open to life the couple would have to have sex whenever they feel like it, without any contraception. NFP is just another form of contraception. So I use contraception in my marriage by not completing - not having an orgasm. It could go wrong, I could not be able to control myself and carry on and ejaculate inside of her. NFP is no different. In both cases the intent is to not be open to life.

It seems you have confused being open to life with likelihood of conception happening. Being open to life includes never altering the act.

How can contracpetion be equal to NFP when with NFP one does not change the act at all and with contraception one definitley changes the act?

 

[1234electrik]

It seems you have confused being open to life with likelihood of conception happening. Being open to life includes never altering the act.

How can contracpetion be equal to NFP when with NFP one does not change the act at all and with contraception one definitley changes the act?

With NFP the timing of the act is set as to avoid pregnancy, therefor it’s a form of contraception. Contraception = preventing pregnancy, or seeking to prevent it. To have sex with a woman when you know she won’t get pregnant make the act not open to life.

 

[fix]

With NFP the timing of the act is set as to avoid pregnancy, therefor it’s a form of contraception.

No, the sinfulness of the act of contraception is separating the two intrinsic aspects of the marital act. Spacing births, or not intending pregnancy, is not the sin of contraception. It is morally licit to space births. How one spaces them is another issue.

Contraception = preventing pregnancy, or seeking to prevent it. To have sex with a woman when you know she won’t get pregnant make the act not open to life.

No, you seem to be using a medical term not a theological one.

If you want to challenge the moral teaching it helps if you first state what the Church teaches, rather than substituting your misinterpretation for the teaching.

 

[1234electrik]

What the church teaches is that contraception by NFP is fine, but other means are not. Illogical. To deliberately avoid a pregnancy by using NFP is no different to using other means - why is it?

 

[bilop]

Lately, I have had a really hard time reconciling the things I was brought up to believe with the modern thinking of the church on several issues. I guess I’m not so much struggling with my faith as I am dishearted by the modern church.

These are the issues I find myself questioning:

1. I fear it is a matter of time before, priests are married

Just wanted to address this one issue. This should not be a problem for your faith. The Church may allow married men to be ordained. It is a matter of discipline. The Eastern Catholic Churches ordain married men regularly, and it is allowed in the Latin Church as a Papal dispensation.

God Bless

 

[fix]

What the church teaches is that contraception by NFP is fine, but other means are not.

No, that is not so. The sin of contraception is intrinsically wrong. There is no excuse to do it. Avoiding pregnancy for a legitimate reason is not immoral. How one avoids it may or may not be immoral. Intent is only one part of the equation.

Illogical. To deliberately avoid a pregnancy by using NFP is no different to using other means - why is it?

Moral acts are evaluated by intent, means, and end. The intent to avoid pregnancy may be justified. The means to achieve that end are not all morally good. If the means used to achieve that end include altering the marital act then the action is immoral.

Imagine you need money for food. Is it equally good to rob a bank as it is to get a job? Both achieve the same end.