Struggling with 'Papal Infallibility'

[Rence]

What is the difference between an infallible statement and a dogma? Does the Pope and/or Council of Bishops declare dogma ‘ex cathedra’?

 

[teranicole]

So, ‘Papal Infalibilty’ is not that, once a man is Pope he can do-say no wrong-

But that a Pope, can make declarative statements, in regards to faith-morals, and those statements or doctrines will be infallible…???

I can wrap my head around that, if that is what you mean…

Kind of like, I may not be the most perfect person, I might swear…have a drink- etc…BUT, when I talk about this one particular subject- I’m knowledgable and maybe even an expert, so even though I am merely man, and have faults, they do not distract from, or take away my experience, knowledge on that subject-

In the same sense, a Pope may not have always been a perfect person, and still might make mistakes in his actions…BUT when it comes to faith-moral, doctorine, etc- The Lord intervenes as a somewhat ‘expert’ and speaks thru him??? Gives him enlightenment…???

I think your starting to understand. I have had to study this because my husband is not catholic and has tried so many ways to prove that the Catholic Church is wrong, this papal infallibility has been one of them.
But… when speaking about the Pope being infallible, it does not mean that the person who is the Pope is infallible. The Catholic CHurch is very clear on this, it means that the Pope is infallible in ONLY the teachings on faith and morals. It does not mean that the human man who is the Pope is not a sinner or perfect in any sense. It simply means it is impossible for the Pope to teach error on the subjects of faith and morals.
Hope this helps.

 

[Rence]

The doctrine simply means that the Pope is divinely protected from error when, acting in his official capacity as chief shepherd of the Catholic fold, he promulgates a decision which is binding on the conscience of all Catholics throughout the world. In other words, his infallibility is limited to his specialty–the Faith of Jesus Christ.
In order for the Pope to be infallible on a particular statement, however, four conditions must apply: 1) he must be speaking ex cathedra . . . that is, ``from the Chair’’ of Peter, or in other words, officially, as head of the entire Church; 2) the decision must be for the whole Church; 3) it must be on a matter of faith or morals; 4) the Pope must have the intention of making a final decision on a teaching of faith or morals, so that it is to be held by all the faithful.

It must be interpretive, not originative; the Pope has no authority to originate new doctrine. He is not the author of revelation–only its guardian and expounder.

**I hope I’m asking the right way so one can understand exactly what I’m asking. But, Where is the origin of such items to be interpreted? What is the origin? For a particular dogma, or infallible teaching, that the Pople interprets or makes more clear, there has to be an origin, if he is not the one originating it. So where does it come from?

For example, in one of the early councils (forgive me I don’t remember which one, the council of nicene maybe?) the Council and the Pope reinforced the dogma of the Trinity. He didn’t make it up. The council did not create the dogma, but reinforced it’s teaching. because it was questioned by protestants. But where did the dogma originate?

For the dogma of the Immaculate Conception, I don’t think the council was where the dogma was originated. It, again, was reinforced or defended because it’s teaching was being questioned. But where is the origin of it?**

He has no power to distort a single word of Scripture, or change one iota of divine tradition. His infallibility is limited strictly to the province of doctrinal interpretation,

But is Free Will belonging to the Pope or Council of Bishops eliminated or supressed in order for the virtue of infallibility and intervention of the Holy Spirit to accomplish this? We all know the message of the Holy Spirit was sent out. But how do we know that the message was recieved and interpreted correctly given that the Pope is human like everyone else, with the same weaknesses as everyone else? Is Free Will suspended?

 

[Rence]

I think your starting to understand. I have had to study this because my husband is not catholic and has tried so many ways to prove that the Catholic Church is wrong, this papal infallibility has been one of them.

How did you study this? What were your resources? Which books did you read? What articles did you read?

 

[Malleus_01]

Charlotte

I think where you seem to have gone wrong is in your inability to GRASP When the Pope is infallible and the Influence of the HOLY GHOST which is what makes him INFALLIBLE when he IS Infallible.

Vatican I:

For the Holy Spirit was promised to the successors of Peter not so that they might, by his revelation, make known some new doctrine, but that, by his assistance, they might religiously guard and faithfully expound the revelation or deposit of faith transmitted by the apostles.

You keep talking about the POPE as MAN.

But what you seem to have forgotten - is that the POPE as Man isnt Infallible.

The POPE as GUIDED BY THE HOLY GHOST is infallible.

Just as the writers of Sacred Scripture were guided by the Holy Ghost in writing it. Hense is it the Word of GOD.

Your belief in the Dogma of Infallibility is not a belief in the Pope as Man - it is the Belief in the Pope as GUIDED by GOD the Holy Ghost to keep the Church Orthodox.

To not believe in Papal Infallibility is to believe that the Holy Ghost has abandoned the Church.

Pax

 

[Genesis315]

Yeah, the whole point of papal infallibility is that the Church is ultimately lead into all truth by the Holy Spirit, not by man.

 

[Malleus_01]

Yeah, the whole point of papal infallibility is that the Church is ultimately lead into all truth by the Holy Spirit, not by man.

Malleus: I did want to add one more thing

Vatican I:

For the Holy Spirit was promised to the successors of Peter not so that they might, by his revelation, make known some new doctrine, but that, by his assistance, they might religiously guard and faithfully expound the revelation or deposit of faith transmitted by the apostles.

Notice what this says. “The Deposit of Faith is GOD’s revelation to man.” That encompasses not ony Scripture in totality but in Addition TRADITION in totality. Now what makes it interesting is the stipulation that says why the Holy Ghost is promised to the Popes by Our Lord to guide them in perpetuity. So that THEY can keep the Church operating as HE instructed the Apostles orignally directly. So the Pope as a man cannot add to the Deposit of Faith. He can only expound on whats already there with the Guidance of the Holy Ghost. Once a Dogma has been defined - it cannot be undefined.

So the POPE is infallible WHEN and ONLY When a questiion comes up about what is or isnt contained in the Deposit of Faith or in the event that some in the Hierarchy take differing positions on certain points of Doctrine and the Doctrine has not been formally defined. To the Pope was promised the Guidance of the Holy Ghost to keep the hierarchy Orthodox with the Teachings of Jesus Christ. No Pope can claim to add to the Deposit of Faith. Truth doesnt evolve.

 

[Rence]

Malleus: I did want to add one more thing

Vatican I:

For the Holy Spirit was promised to the successors of Peter not so that they might, by his revelation, make known some new doctrine, but that, by his assistance, they might religiously guard and faithfully expound the revelation or deposit of faith transmitted by the apostles.

Notice what this says. “The Deposit of Faith is GOD’s revelation to man.” That encompasses not ony Scripture in totality but in Addition TRADITION in totality.

**But what is the origin of the Deposit of Faith? I know part of it is from Scripture. And you explained it was also from Tradition. Does that mean Tradition is from verbal and written teachings (that are not part of Scripture of course)? And what was their origin? I guess I mean, how did they come to know that it was Tradition? How did they come to be? Can you give an example of something that wasn’t in the Scripture, but is part of Tradition that is an infallible teaching? **

Now what makes it interesting is the stipulation that says why the Holy Ghost is promised to the Popes by Our Lord to guide them in perpetuity. So that THEY can keep the Church operating as HE instructed the Apostles orignally directly. So the Pope as a man cannot add to the Deposit of Faith. He can only expound on whats already there with the Guidance of the Holy Ghost. Once a Dogma has been defined - it cannot be undefined.

But who made the Deposit if Faith? I know you said the Pope cannot. But it had to be filled with something, and from someone? Is there a written Deposit of Faith or is it a figurative receptical?

So the POPE is infallible WHEN and ONLY When a questiion comes up about what is or isnt contained in the Deposit of Faith

But if it’s not in the deposit of faith, how can the Pope reveal it as an infallible statement since he cannot add to the deposit of faith? I’m confused about this.

or in the event that some in the Hierarchy take differing positions on certain points of Doctrine and the Doctrine has not been formally defined.

**That much I understand as was done to establish the Dogma of the Trinity, which was already believed and defined, but was questioned by others. That part I get. **

To the Pope was promised the Guidance of the Holy Ghost to keep the hierarchy Orthodox with the Teachings of Jesus Christ. No Pope can claim to add to the Deposit of Faith. Truth doesnt evolve.

 

[Malleus_01]

<<< But what is the origin of the Deposit of Faith? I know part of it is from Scripture. And you explained it was also from Tradition. Does that mean Tradition is from verbal and written teachings (that are not part of Scripture of course)? And what was their origin? I guess I mean, how did they come to know that it was Tradition? How did they come to be? Can you give an example of something that wasn’t in the Scripture, but is part of Tradition that is an infallible teaching? >>>>.

Jesus Christ is the Origin of the Deposit of Faith. Thats why he spent three years in his ministry not only performing miracles - but teaching the Apostles every single detail of it personally , many things at the time they didnt understand fully , until Pentecost Sunday when the Holy Ghost came upon them and they completely understood everything the Lord had taught them. Thats why you see them come out of hiding and spreading the faith right up until their martyrdom (Except St John and it wasnt for lack of trying on him as well) The Magisterium and the Subsequent Vicars of Christ have taught the faith ever since that original Pentecost Sunday with the guidance of the Holy Ghost. Have their been Failures? Well there have been Heresies (Including today) , Anti Popes , and of Course Enemies from without. But each time the Church is threatened - GOD Raises up a Great Saint. As for what isnt in Scripture but is in Tradition think about it this way. All of the Epistles of St Paul , Acts , and the Epistles of St James and St Peter and St John are TRADITION. St Jeromes Vulgate didnt appear until Pope St Damasus ordered St Jerome to compile the New Testament in 380 AD. Up until that time - the New Testament didnt exist under one cover. Yes the Church operated from 33 AD until 380AD completely without the New Testament and after until copies were handwrittten and distributed. They were rare for centuries in the Early Church. The Church has passed down its truths through the Sacrament of Holy Orders. Our Bishops and Priests teach the Faith and they get to be Bishops and Priests by Sacrament. GOD Himself is alive in the Sacraments. The Seminaries and monestaries of the Church do not only teach the Teachings of Christ by books - but they require Spritual formation as well. And the Magisterium and Papal Infalliblility together guards the Orthodoxy of the Deposit of Faith. Which of course is why the Holy Ghost guides the POPE when he defines Ex Cathedra. No Heresy can stand for long. Even if bad Bishops or Priests or in 38 cases - Anti Popes themselves infilltrate the Church - their Bad Fruits rreveal them to be what they are , Heretics. Heretics deny Dogma. When a Heretic denies Dogma - their defection comes to light quickly because of Divine Intervention. Saints always exist in every age. They are for all intents and purposes the Whistleblowers , if you will. And they can come from the Clergy and they can come from the Laity. But a Saint will always counteract a Heretic. GOD Himself guards his Church by not allowing the Devil to win. So what does all this mean to you or me? We have to practise Our Faith. We have to pray. We have to offer our suffering and penances and fastings and we have to love our neighbor as ourselves and keep ourselves unstained in this world and to partake of the sacraments as often as we can. Then - the truth becomes apparent. But GOD first and conform your will to his. You become the next Saint. Then the Heretics will be apparent to you. And if we fall short - we get up again. Keep getting up. There is no shortcut in Catholicism. We are to take up our Cross and follow. As St Paul said - work out your salvatiion in fear and trembling. The answers will come when you do. Offer Catholic Prayers - the Catholic Mass - the Holy Rosary - Confess often - Practise your faith. If and when you can look in that mirror total and complete honsety and say I am the best possible Catholic I can possibly be (And we all know that day will never come for any of us) then you are striving in the right direction and these answers you seek will be answered by GOD in his timeframe not yours and not mine. We all want to know everything about our faith. GOD will give us enough to save Our Soul. Becontent with that and strive for that - for that is our purpose. Knowledge is only one of the 7 Gifts of the Holy Ghost Strive for all 7 and you will increase in all 7.

Enough for Today

Ponder and Pray

Pax

 

[Rence]

**Ok, I thought about this post a while, let me see if I understand this correctly Malleus. **

<<< But what is the origin of the Deposit of Faith? I know part of it is from Scripture. And you explained it was also from Tradition. Does that mean Tradition is from verbal and written teachings (that are not part of Scripture of course)? And what was their origin? I guess I mean, how did they come to know that it was Tradition? How did they come to be? Can you give an example of something that wasn’t in the Scripture, but is part of Tradition that is an infallible teaching? >>>>.

Jesus Christ is the Origin of the Deposit of Faith. Thats why he spent three years in his ministry not only performing miracles - but teaching the Apostles every single detail of it personally , many things at the time they didnt understand fully , until Pentecost Sunday when the Holy Ghost came upon them and they completely understood everything the Lord had taught them. Thats why you see them come out of hiding and spreading the faith right up until their martyrdom (Except St John and it wasnt for lack of trying on him as well). The Magisterium and the Subsequent Vicars of Christ have taught the faith ever since that original Pentecost Sunday with the guidance of the Holy Ghost.

Ok, to paraphrase what you’re saying above: all the dogma and the infallible teachings come from JC Himself, which he taught to the Apostles and even though they didn’t understand it yet, it was made clear to them on Pentecost. Do these dogma and infallible teachings that were revealed to the Apostles appear in the Bible and other writings that were not included in the Bible but that are in the Vatican library? Did the Apostles ever write them down? How was the accuracy of JC’s words and messages maintained? And are they available for all Catholics to review?

Have their been Failures? Well there have been Heresies (Including today) ,

Heresies that came from the Vatican or Popes or Councils of Bishops? or from outside that circle of responsibility?

Anti Popes , and of Course Enemies from without. But each time the Church is threatened - GOD Raises up a Great Saint. As for what isnt in Scripture but is in Tradition think about it this way. All of the Epistles of St Paul , Acts , and the Epistles of St James and St Peter and St John are TRADITION. St Jeromes Vulgate didnt appear until Pope St Damasus ordered St Jerome to compile the New Testament in 380 AD. Up until that time - the New Testament didnt exist under one cover. Yes the Church operated from 33 AD until 380AD completely without the New Testament and after until copies were handwrittten and distributed. They were rare for centuries in the Early Church. The Church has passed down its truths through the Sacrament of Holy Orders. Our Bishops and Priests teach the Faith and they get to be Bishops and Priests by Sacrament. GOD Himself is alive in the Sacraments. The Seminaries and monestaries of the Church do not only teach the Teachings of Christ by books - but they require Spritual formation as well. And the Magisterium and Papal Infalliblility together guards the Orthodoxy of the Deposit of Faith. Which of course is why the Holy Ghost guides the POPE when he defines Ex Cathedra. No Heresy can stand for long. Even if bad Bishops or Priests or in 38 cases - Anti Popes themselves infilltrate the Church

I don’t know anything about these occurences. Can you please refer me to somehwere that has information on the 38 cases that you’re talking about? or the anti-popes? This forum is the first place that I have seen the word “anti-pope”. I have no idea what that is or what came of these anti-popes.

• their Bad Fruits rreveal them to be what they are , Heretics. Heretics deny Dogma. When a Heretic denies Dogma - their defection comes to light quickly because of Divine Intervention. Saints always exist in every age. They are for all intents and purposes the Whistleblowers , if you will. And they can come from the Clergy and they can come from the Laity. But a Saint will always counteract a Heretic. GOD Himself guards his Church by not allowing the Devil to win.

So what does all this mean to you or me? We have to practise Our Faith. We have to pray. We have to offer our suffering and penances and fastings and we have to love our neighbor as ourselves and keep ourselves unstained in this world and to partake of the sacraments as often as we can. Then - the truth becomes apparent. But GOD first and conform your will to his. You become the next Saint. Then the Heretics will be apparent to you. And if we fall short - we get up again. Keep getting up. There is no shortcut in Catholicism. We are to take up our Cross and follow. As St Paul said - work out your salvatiion in fear and trembling. The answers will come when you do. Offer Catholic Prayers - the Catholic Mass - the Holy Rosary - Confess often - Practise your faith. If and when you can look in that mirror total and complete honsety and say I am the best possible Catholic I can possibly be (And we all know that day will never come for any of us) then you are striving in the right direction and these answers you seek will be answered by GOD in his timeframe not yours and not mine. We all want to know everything about our faith. GOD will give us enough to save Our Soul. Becontent with that and strive for that - for that is our purpose. Knowledge is only one of the 7 Gifts of the Holy Ghost Strive for all 7 and you will increase in all 7.

Enough for Today
**
Thank you for taking the time to explain the above in such detail. I appreciate it. **

Ponder and Pray

Pax

 

[Rence]

No takers? Are there no answers then? Are these one of those things that must be taken at face value, like the Trinity? But even the Trinity makes sense to me

 

[Malleus_01]

St Peter is in heaven my friend, not in Rome.

Yours in Christ
Joe

Malleus : His relics are And there is the Chair he sat on and a really big Church…

 

[Malleus_01]

**Ok, I thought about this post a while, let me see if I understand this correctly Malleus. **

Ok, to paraphrase what you’re saying above: all the dogma and the infallible teachings come from JC Himself, which he taught to the Apostles and even though they didn’t understand it yet, it was made clear to them on Pentecost. Do these dogma and infallible teachings that were revealed to the Apostles appear in the Bible and other writings that were not included in the Bible but that are in the Vatican library? Did the Apostles ever write them down? How was the accuracy of JC’s words and messages maintained? And are they available for all Catholics to review?

Malleus: Sorry - I didnt see your response until now . Yes all Dogma has as its origin the Revelation of GOD in Jesus Christ. Everything Jesus Christ taught is DOGMA. Now we being men cannot always agree on what he meant. Jesus knowing our flaws then promised to correct us when we vear off his teachings. Hense the Pope and Magisterium and the Guidance of the Holy Ghost. Now to understand DOGMA what you have to do is rise above for a moment - the context. You are approaching the understanding strictly from reason. But reason , although it has a definite role - is not the sole factor. It takes prayer and the Spiritual development which is as important as reason. An earlier poster had an excellent post regarding how some DOGMAS took Centuries and thousands of Theolgians reasoning and the spiritual development in the Church herself before a definition from the Chair was forthcoming. It isnt that it was hard to believe or that Jesus had not taught it - but that Man in his weakness took a long time in understanding and thus needed the guidance of the Holy Ghost before the Pope could proclaim it as a Matter of Faith. All Dogmas stand the test of time because they are Truths revealed by GOD. So when we say something is DOGMA we are saying that it is a Truth revealed by GOD himself and not man.

Heresies that came from the Vatican or Popes or Councils of Bishops? or from outside that circle of responsibility?

Heresies come from Heretics. Be they within or without. They never stand the test of time. There have been 38 Confirmed Anti Popes. A True Pope cannot be a Heretic. He would be outside the faith ipso facto. Nestorius was a Metropolitan Patriarch - the equivilence of an Archbishop. Arius a Monk and a Bishop - Luther was a monk So yes - Heretics come from within.

I don’t know anything about these occurences. Can you please refer me to somehwere that has information on the 38 cases that you’re talking about? or the anti-popes? This forum is the first place that I have seen the word “anti-pope”. I have no idea what that is or what came of these anti-popes.

I found this online - But it may be a good starting point for you - you can look into the circumstances of each case. There are hundreds of books on the subject. Probably the best example was the Western Schism - where factions of Cardinals each elected their own Popes. At one time there were “three” (Only one of which was legitimate) It took the abdication (Which only one agreed to the others were deposed - thats right the True Pope agreed) of all three and an Ecumenical Church Council (Florence) to give us The Pope.

bringyou.to/apologetics/a13.htm

(And I just googled it - i dont vouch for the source)

Now keep in mind - the fact that there have been Anti Popes at the same time as True Popes serves to bolster Papal Infallibility because the True Pope despite not being universally accepted still promulgated Truth.

Men can make a mess of the Church and have done so through history. It is a great thing to have the guidance of the Holy Ghost to put it back on course when we do.

Pax

 

[Rence]

Ok, to paraphrase what you’re saying above: all the dogma and the infallible teachings come from JC Himself, which he taught to the Apostles and even though they didn’t understand it yet, it was made clear to them on Pentecost. Do these dogma and infallible teachings that were revealed to the Apostles appear in the Bible and other writings that were not included in the Bible but that are in the Vatican library? Did the Apostles ever write them down? How was the accuracy of JC’s words and messages maintained? And are they available for all Catholics to review?

Malleus: Sorry - I didnt see your response until now . Yes all Dogma has as its origin the Revelation of GOD in Jesus Christ. Everything Jesus Christ taught is DOGMA. Now we being men cannot always agree on what he meant.

**Thanks for answering

That’s my concern: that not everyone responsible for making these teachings known to the membes of the Church will agree on what he meant or agree on their understanding of what he meant. Further, how many were pressured to agree on a Church’s stance by the others? How do completely normal human beings ignore their own biases when they believe something?**

Jesus knowing our flaws then promised to correct us when we vear off his teachings. Hense the Pope and Magisterium and the Guidance of the Holy Ghost.

Yes, but the same thing I said above applies. I mean, they’re only human…Are we not giving them too much credit? Is that even fair to them? God is all powerful, allknowing, and can do anything. But he never said he would take away free will and erase peoples’ flaws by force.

Now to understand DOGMA what you have to do is rise above for a moment - the context. You are approaching the understanding strictly from reason. But reason , although it has a definite role - is not the sole factor. It takes prayer and the Spiritual development which is as important as reason.

**Yes, I agree with that. It’s hard to ignore what you believe and what you value to be possibly in error. That’s why from now on, when I have a question about a dogma or teaching, I’m just going to discuss it with my priest. He’s been very helpful. But know that the reason why I doubt the capacity of some Church educators to put aside their “reason” and submit their thoughts to divine intervention, is because I have a hard time myself reconciling reason with teachings and their reasons for teachings. **

An earlier poster had an excellent post regarding how some DOGMAS took Centuries and thousands of Theolgians reasoning and the spiritual development in the Church herself before a definition from the Chair was forthcoming. It isnt that it was hard to believe or that Jesus had not taught it - but that Man in his weakness took a long time in understanding and thus needed the guidance of the Holy Ghost before the Pope could proclaim it as a Matter of Faith. All Dogmas stand the test of time because they are Truths revealed by GOD. So when we say something is DOGMA we are saying that it is a Truth revealed by GOD himself and not man.

That’s what I have a problem with. Some of these teachings were established quite early in the “life” of the Church, that I question the capacity of those making the decisions to discern the true message. I feel more at ease when a teaching is revisited and tweaked with understanding that has developed over the years rather than a teaching that “has been around for 2000 years, and therefore must obviously be correct because it’s such an old teaching”. Do you understand what I mean?

Heresies come from Heretics. Be they within or without. They never stand the test of time. There have been 38 Confirmed Anti Popes. A True Pope cannot be a Heretic. He would be outside the faith ipso facto. Nestorius was a Metropolitan Patriarch - the equivilence of an Archbishop. Arius a Monk and a Bishop - Luther was a monk So yes - Heretics come from within.

But haven’t some “heresies” stood the test of time by the virtue of the fact that they are still around today? For example, wasn’t the Lutheran religion established due to “heresies”? One can’t deny the Lutheran religion is strong and thriving. Or the protestants. Or even the Eastern Orthodox who have rejected Papal Infallibility. Or am I misinterpreting what you mean by heresies? Because I thought Luther was a heretic, and I thought the Eastern Orthodox religion was considered a schism based on heresies?

Men can make a mess of the Church and have done so through history. It is a great thing to have the guidance of the Holy Ghost to put it back on course when we do.

Yeah, they certainly can. It’s hard for me to take certain teachings of the Church seriously when there are so many controversies surrounding the Church, and always have been. I do often wonder why there is such faith in humans to adhere to the teachings of the Holy Spirit, without also believing that if they can understand and interpret teachings so “correctly” how the Church leaders can make such horrible mistakes. For example, relocating priests who have commited sexual crimes. Thirty years ago, the Church leaders believed that pedophilia could be “cured” with therapy, so they would erroneously relocate these fallen priests into another parish, only to subject more innocents to more harm. I hope they do something to fix it now that they have the proper information. They really need to take the bull by the horns and fix this mess, and I’m sure they are working towards just that, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit to help them.

Pax

 

[Malleus_01]

Thanks for answering

That’s my concern: that not everyone responsible for making these teachings known to the membes of the Church will agree on what he meant or agree on their understanding of what he meant. Further, how many were pressured to agree on a Church’s stance by the others? How do completely normal human beings ignore their own biases when they believe something?

Malleus: Well , once again - if one were to have the tendancy to believe that the Church merely is the product of Men and not designed by GOD (Our Lord Jesus Christ) and Guided by GOD (The Holy Ghost) to Give Worship and Attonement and Honor to GOD ( the Father) then your argument is valid. I think it comes down to Faith. And I know some people struggle because they rely solely on reason in every day life. But to me - its called the Catholic Faith for a reason. So - we have to have GOD’s Grace in these matters as well as reason to arrive at his TRUTHS. And his Grace can only come from Him. And I am not suggesting you dont either or never have etc. I am speaking in general. Everyone struggles with the Faith sooner or later from time to time. St Theresa of Liseux herself spoke about this as did Mother Theresa. And we all have to Pray our way through those dark days of the soul. There is nothing wrong with having a question. But sometimes the answer to that question is only going to come to you from GOD himself through Grace. (Does that make any sense to you?)

Yes, but the same thing I said above applies. I mean, they’re only human…Are we not giving them too much credit? Is that even fair to them? God is all powerful, allknowing, and can do anything. But he never said he would take away free will and erase peoples’ flaws by force.

Malleus: True - But GOD can do everything except one thing. GOD wants to be loved freely. He wants us to Love him because we love him. Not by coercing us to. Thats the purpose of free will. And he tests that love often to make certain its genuine.And sometimes - contradictions themselves cannot be reasoned through necessitating reliance on WHO? On GOD. There are 2000 years of core teachings by over 260 Popes - 20 Church Councils and thousands of Saints. And various forms of Prayer and Devotions. As a Catholic - we are to partake of the Seven Sacraments and to live a Holy Life. So we have Grace at our disposal.

Yes, I agree with that. It’s hard to ignore what you believe and what you value to be possibly in error. That’s why from now on, when I have a question about a dogma or teaching, I’m just going to discuss it with my priest. He’s been very helpful. But know that the reason why I doubt the capacity of some Church educators to put aside their “reason” and submit their thoughts to divine intervention, is because I have a hard time myself reconciling reason with teachings and their reasons for teachings.

Malleus: And Pray. Dont forget the Spiritual component. And I’ll bet your Priest will advise you to do the same.

That’s what I have a problem with. Some of these teachings were established quite early in the “life” of the Church, that I question the capacity of those making the decisions to discern the true message. I feel more at ease when a teaching is revisited and tweaked with understanding that has developed over the years rather than a teaching that “has been around for 2000 years, and therefore must obviously be correct because it’s such an old teaching”. Do you understand what I mean?

Malleus: That , my friend , is exactly what has happened in the Catholic Church. Take the Apostles Creed and then the Nicene Creed. Do they say the same thing? Well , essentially yes. But because of Arius - the Nicene Creed is much more specific isnt it. But what doesnt happen in Catholicism is a New Modern Creed that contradicts completely both the Apostles and Nicene Creed. Does that make sense?

 

[Malleus_01]

But haven’t some “heresies” stood the test of time by the virtue of the fact that they are still around today? For example, wasn’t the Lutheran religion established due to “heresies”? One can’t deny the Lutheran religion is strong and thriving. Or the protestants. Or even the Eastern Orthodox who have rejected Papal Infallibility. Or am I misinterpreting what you mean by heresies? Because I thought Luther was a heretic, and I thought the Eastern Orthodox religion was considered a schism based on heresies?

Malleus: But there is no Catholic who makes the claim that by virtue of being a Lutheran - they attain heaven by the merits of the Lutheran Religion. They are saved through Natural Law by the merits of the Catholic religion through the Catholic religion. So no - aspects of Lutheranism is still Heretical. The Orthodox are in Schism. But they deny Papal Infallibility out of disobedience - not doctrinally. Vatican I came after the Great Schism The same holds true for them. And I know what you are saying. the current debate is over what the term “Subsisit” in Vatican II meant and there are differing schools of thought having been debated here several times previously.

Yeah, they certainly can. It’s hard for me to take certain teachings of the Church seriously when there are so many controversies surrounding the Church, and always have been. I do often wonder why there is such faith in humans to adhere to the teachings of the Holy Spirit, without also believing that if they can understand and interpret teachings so “correctly” how the Church leaders can make such horrible mistakes.

Malleus: Well , that is a good argument. But remember - we all have a fallen human nature - there is Satan and there are those who get lazy in their prayer life or who give in to temptation. Ultimately - we all have to reconcile ourselves on Judgement day and we know that the Judgement seat is occupied by the Lord Jesus Christ himsself who formed and who supports Holy Mother the Church. So not only will Laity and non Catholics be Judged Fairly and all things considered - but those responsible for contraditions in positions of power in the Church as well.

For example, relocating priests who have commited sexual crimes. Thirty years ago, the Church leaders believed that pedophilia could be “cured” with therapy, so they would erroneously relocate these fallen priests into another parish, only to subject more innocents to more harm. I hope they do something to fix it now that they have the proper information. They really need to take the bull by the horns and fix this mess, and I’m sure they are working towards just that, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit to help them.

Malleus: Yes , that situation is a product of Heresy IMO. Modernism in particular. There are bad Bishops and bad Priests even in Rome. There is no getting around that fact. But there are also Good Priests and Good Bishops so we shouldnt paint them all with the broad brush. And these things will all come out in the open. Heresies never can stand for long. Sooner or later - the Truth comes out.

Pax

 

[Rence]

But haven’t some “heresies” stood the test of time by the virtue of the fact that they are still around today? For example, wasn’t the Lutheran religion established due to “heresies”? One can’t deny the Lutheran religion is strong and thriving. Or the protestants. Or even the Eastern Orthodox who have rejected Papal Infallibility. Or am I misinterpreting what you mean by heresies? Because I thought Luther was a heretic, and I thought the Eastern Orthodox religion was considered a schism based on heresies?

Malleus: But there is no Catholic who makes the claim that by virtue of being a Lutheran - they attain heaven by the merits of the Lutheran Religion. They are saved through Natural Law by the merits of the Catholic religion through the Catholic religion. So no - aspects of Lutheranism is still Heretical. The Orthodox are in Schism. But they deny Papal Infallibility out of disobedience - not doctrinally. Vatican I came after the Great Schism The same holds true for them. And I know what you are saying. the current debate is over what the term “Subsisit” in Vatican II meant and there are differing schools of thought having been debated here several times previously.

**Ok, I see what you’re saying. This is from the perspective of a Catholic, not generally speaking. I guess I can understand that perspective…I thought you meant generally speaking that it would stand the test of time.

But what is “subsisit” from Vatican II? **

Yeah, they certainly can. It’s hard for me to take certain teachings of the Church seriously when there are so many controversies surrounding the Church, and always have been. I do often wonder why there is such faith in humans to adhere to the teachings of the Holy Spirit, without also believing that if they can understand and interpret teachings so “correctly” how the Church leaders can make such horrible mistakes.

Malleus: Well , that is a good argument. But remember - we all have a fallen human nature - there is Satan and there are those who get lazy in their prayer life or who give in to temptation. Ultimately - we all have to reconcile ourselves on Judgement day and we know that the Judgement seat is occupied by the Lord Jesus Christ himsself who formed and who supports Holy Mother the Church. So not only will Laity and non Catholics be Judged Fairly and all things considered - but those responsible for contraditions in positions of power in the Church as well.

**I just wish that instead of waiting for the afterlife, that God would intervene directly. But I’m sure, others do too. I guess it would be too simple if God would just come down and fix it **

For example, relocating priests who have commited sexual crimes. Thirty years ago, the Church leaders believed that pedophilia could be “cured” with therapy, so they would erroneously relocate these fallen priests into another parish, only to subject more innocents to more harm. I hope they do something to fix it now that they have the proper information. They really need to take the bull by the horns and fix this mess, and I’m sure they are working towards just that, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit to help them.

Malleus: Yes , that situation is a product of Heresy IMO. Modernism in particular. There are bad Bishops and bad Priests even in Rome. There is no getting around that fact. But there are also Good Priests and Good Bishops so we shouldnt paint them all with the broad brush. And these things will all come out in the open. Heresies never can stand for long. Sooner or later - the Truth comes out.

**It looks like our present Pope is trying to fix all of this. I pray that he’s successful, for everyone’s sake.

Thaks again for taking the time to help me out. **

Pax

 

[Rence]

Malleus: Well , once again - if one were to have the tendancy to believe that the Church merely is the product of Men and not designed by GOD (Our Lord Jesus Christ) and Guided by GOD (The Holy Ghost) to Give Worship and Attonement and Honor to GOD ( the Father) then your argument is valid. I think it comes down to Faith. And I know some people struggle because they rely solely on reason in every day life. But to me - its called the Catholic Faith for a reason. So - we have to have GOD’s Grace in these matters as well as reason to arrive at his TRUTHS. And his Grace can only come from Him. And I am not suggesting you dont either or never have etc. I am speaking in general. Everyone struggles with the Faith sooner or later from time to time. St Theresa of Liseux herself spoke about this as did Mother Theresa. And we all have to Pray our way through those dark days of the soul. There is nothing wrong with having a question. But sometimes the answer to that question is only going to come to you from GOD himself through Grace. (Does that make any sense to you?)

Yes, it does make sense to me. Because sometimes no answers help me see the answers to questions. So yeah, I know what you mean.

Yes, but the same thing I said above applies. I mean, they’re only human…Are we not giving them too much credit? Is that even fair to them? God is all powerful, allknowing, and can do anything. But he never said he would take away free will and erase peoples’ flaws by force.

Malleus: True - But GOD can do everything except one thing. GOD wants to be loved freely. He wants us to Love him because we love him. Not by coercing us to. Thats the purpose of free will. And he tests that love often to make certain its genuine.And sometimes - contradictions themselves cannot be reasoned through necessitating reliance on WHO? On GOD. There are 2000 years of core teachings by over 260 Popes - 20 Church Councils and thousands of Saints. And various forms of Prayer and Devotions. As a Catholic - we are to partake of the Seven Sacraments and to live a Holy Life. So we have Grace at our disposal.

Yes, I agree with that. It’s hard to ignore what you believe and what you value to be possibly in error. That’s why from now on, when I have a question about a dogma or teaching, I’m just going to discuss it with my priest. He’s been very helpful. But know that the reason why I doubt the capacity of some Church educators to put aside their “reason” and submit their thoughts to divine intervention, is because I have a hard time myself reconciling reason with teachings and their reasons for teachings.

Malleus: And Pray. Dont forget the Spiritual component. And I’ll bet your Priest will advise you to do the same.
**
You’re right Prayers do wonders, that I don’t need to be convinced of! **

That’s what I have a problem with. Some of these teachings were established quite early in the “life” of the Church, that I question the capacity of those making the decisions to discern the true message. I feel more at ease when a teaching is revisited and tweaked with understanding that has developed over the years rather than a teaching that “has been around for 2000 years, and therefore must obviously be correct because it’s such an old teaching”. Do you understand what I mean?

Malleus: That , my friend , is exactly what has happened in the Catholic Church. Take the Apostles Creed and then the Nicene Creed. Do they say the same thing? Well , essentially yes. But because of Arius - the Nicene Creed is much more specific isnt it. But what doesnt happen in Catholicism is a New Modern Creed that contradicts completely both the Apostles and Nicene Creed. Does that make sense?

NO, it doesn’t. I only of the Apostles and Nicene Creed. And to me, they’re the most important parts of our faith

 

[Malleus_01]

You’re right Prayers do wonders, that I don’t need to be convinced of!

Malleus : Well said. I agree.

NO, it doesn’t. I only of the Apostles and Nicene Creed. And to me, they’re the most important parts of our faith

Malleus: I agree. Can you believe the nerve of Arius.

Ok, I see what you’re saying. This is from the perspective of a Catholic, not generally speaking. I guess I can understand that perspective…I thought you meant generally speaking that it would stand the test of time.

But what is “subsisit” from Vatican II?

Malleus: Well - it was once explained to me like this - Geometrically. - The two schools of thought are that prior to Vatican II some held that the Church was like a geometric design of Circles. the Catholic Church being a Large Circle and all the other religions or churches as Circles, lying outside of that Circle. After Vatican II - the Catholic Circle now has all the other Circles (Religions) intersecting it. And the portion lying within is True and the Portion lying outside is error. But that the portions lying within are shared Truths. And so If I take a position contrary - the powers that be in this forum will descend on me like wolves. This can be a very contentious issue here. Now I had this discussion outside of this forum with a friend who attends the OF.

I just wish that instead of waiting for the afterlife, that God would intervene directly. But I’m sure, others do too. I guess it would be too simple if God would just come down and fix it

Malleus: Yes - we all want that I think. But then , if it was easy - would we value GOD or come to depend on him through faith as deeply? Thats a very good subject isnt it.

It looks like our present Pope is trying to fix all of this. I pray that he’s successful, for everyone’s sake.

Thaks again for taking the time to help me out.

Malleus: We all want these things to be solved , I agree and yes Pray for the same. And any time - I enjoyed your insight as well.
I think by having the conversattions - we both take something away.

May God Bless.