Struggling with the difference between single and double predestination

[J_Dudycha]

The difference between single versus double-predestination, as far as it’s understood in Reformed theology, is that the latter is an inference of man’s mind, and that there is zero Biblical evidence to support such a conclusion.

This is the problem with Reformed “theology,” imo; it places man’s reason above the Scriptures, and demands that God’s mysteries must make sense to man, thereby reaching conclusions which are not found in the Bible. This is what led to the Reformed rejection of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, for example, and their denial of Baptismal Regeneration. Because they couldn’t understand how God works his graces, they concluded that maybe God doesn’t want all to be saved; hence double-predestination.

For a fantastic excurses on free will and predestination, I strongly recommend St. Prosper of Aquitaine’s The Call of All Nations. He was a student of Augustine, and makes distinctions between the types of grace which God gives us, and how/why some respond to it, and others don’t. A great early church treatise on the topic in question.

 

[Gorgias]

I can agree with all of that, but my point is that that is not what St. Augustine especially is saying.

True. The Church rejects his theory of the massa damnata, though.

Just because one bishop makes a doctrinal claim, doesn’t make it so. (OK – maybe if the Bishop of Rome does… )

Protestantism doesn’t teach “double predestination” that God predestines the wicked to Hell.

Calvinism does, though. So… maybe we might say “some Protestants teach…”?

 

[Latin]

Contrary to popular belief, Protestantism doesn’t teach “double predestination” that God predestines the wicked to Hell.

THE INSTITUTES OF CHRISTIAN RELIGION by John Calvin.

Chapter 21 of Book 3 of his Institutes. The chapter is titled:

“OF THE ETERNAL ELECTION, BY WHICH GOD HAS PREDESTINATED SOME TO SALVATION, AND OTHERS TO DESTRUCTION.”

Excerpt from Section 5 in Chapter 21:

“All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death.”

Reference:

Calvin, John. Institutes of Christian religion. Trans. Henry Beveridge, Esq. 1599. Christian Classics Ethereal Library. Nov. 1999. 20 Sept.
2001 [<http://www.ccel.org/c/calvin/institutes/institutes.html]

God bless

 

[J_Dudycha]

Yes, but Calvin does not equal all of Protestantism. He only represents a subsection of Protestantism known as “reformed” theology. Presbyterians are traditionally reformed/Calvinist, as well as some fundamentalist Baptists.

Lutherans and most evangelicals do not fall into this category.

 

[Latin]

Yes, but Calvin does not equal all of Protestantism.

It makes no difference how we cut it, if a denomination does not teach, God is Predestined everyone to heaven, one way or another they teaches “double predestination.”

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The Catholic dogma
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA The predestination of the elect.

“Considering that not all men reach their supernatural end in heaven, but that many are eternally lost, there MUST EXIST a twofold predestination:

(a) one to heaven.

(b) one to the pains of hell.

However, according to present usages to which we shall adhere in the course of the article, it is better to call the latter decree the Divine reprobation so that the term predestination is reserved for the Divine decree of the happiness of the elect.
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The COUNTERPART of the predestination of the good is the decree the Divine reprobation.

Merely implies the absolute will not to grant the bliss of heaven, though not positively predestined to hell, yet they are absolutely predestined not to go to heaven (cf. above, I, B).
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Calvinistic reprobation means the absolute will to condemn to hell.

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Explanation of the decree the Divine reprobation:

Whatever view one may take regarding the internal probability of negative reprobation, it cannot be harmonized with the dogmatically certain universality and sincerity of God’s salvific will.
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For the absolute predestination of the blessed is at the same time the absolute will of God “not to elect” a priori the rest of mankind (Suarez), or which comes to the same, “to exclude them from heaven” (Gonet), in other words, not to save them.
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How can that will to save be called serious and sincere which has decreed from all eternity the metaphysical impossibility of salvation?
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He who has been reprobated negatively, may exhaust all his efforts to attain salvation: it avails him nothing.
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Moreover, in order to realize infallibly his decree, God is compelled to frustrate the eternal welfare of all excluded a priori from heaven, and to take care that they die in their sins.
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Lessius rightly says that it would be indifferent to him whether he was numbered among those reprobated positively or negatively; for, in either case, his eternal damnation would be certain.
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The reason for this is that in the present economy exclusion from heaven means for adults practically the same thing as damnation. A middle state, a merely natural happiness, does not exist.”

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm
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God bless

 

[EasternCelt]

Absolutely terrifying.

 

[Latin]

Absolutely terrifying.

Our future is not terrifying at all, in fact our future is wonderful in Heaven.

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The Scripture should be understand in context and in the light of the teachings of the Catholic Church.

The Scripture is like a coded message/ enigma, can be understand by God’s revelation.
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In the Book of Jonah God provided us His key to understand His enigma/ coded message.
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In the book of Jonah God promised destruction and hell to all Ninevites, and He provided Universal Salvation to the Ninevites.
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The same principle applies to the warnings and promises of hell in the New Testament.
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When we are reading the Scripture, we see in parallel there are two lines of teachings.
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One line is only a few people saved, the other line is God’s Universal Salvific Will and He saves everyone (Rom.5:18; Eph.1:10-11; Col.1:20; etc.).

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Before Vatican II our theologians mostly focused on the line teaches only a few people saved.
At Vatican II and after our theologians started to focus on the line which teaches God saves everyone.
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This is above exactly the whole Catholic Church is praying for (CCC 1058), we all should believe what we are praying for.

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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains the ultimate perfection yet to be attained, to which God has destined it.
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This, the beneficent purpose of an all-seeing Providence, is wholly gratuitous, entirely unmerited (Romans 3:24; 9:11-2).
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It extends to all men (Romans 2:10; 1 Timothy 2:4), even to the reprobate Jews (Romans 11:26 sq.); and by it all God’s dealings with man are regulated (Ephesians 1:11).
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It extends to every individual, adapting itself to the needs of each (St. John Chrysostom, Hom. xxviii in Matt, n. 3 in; P.G., LVII, 354).
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All things are created and governed with a view to man, to the development of his life and his intelligence, and to the satisfaction of his needs (Aristides, i, v, vi, xv, xvi.
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His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.
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He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.
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Hence Providence is at once universal, immediate, efficacious, yet all alike postulate Divine concurrence and receive their powers of operation from Him (I, Q. xxii, a. 3; Q. ciii, a. 6); efficacious, in that all things minister to God’s final purpose, a purpose which cannot be frustrated (Contra Gent., III, xciv);

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That end is that all creatures should manifest the glory of God, and in particular that man should glorify Him, recognizing in nature the work of His hand, serving Him in obedience and love, and thereby attaining to the full development of his nature and to eternal happiness in God.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12510a.htm
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The teachings of universal salvation is not new and it is very popular in the modern Roman Catholic Church and more and more Catholic theologians and Catholic Priests teaches God saves everyone.
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God bless

 

[Cathoholic]

The Church does not teach universalism @Latin.

 

[RaisedCatholic]

Calvinism does, though. So… maybe we might say “some Protestants teach…”?

THE INSTITUTES OF CHRISTIAN RELIGION by John Calvin.

Chapter 21 of Book 3 of his Institutes. The chapter is titled:

“OF THE ETERNAL ELECTION, BY WHICH GOD HAS PREDESTINATED SOME TO SALVATION, AND OTHERS TO DESTRUCTION.”

Like I said Protestantism doesn’t teach double predestination. John Calvin & Calvinism is not “Protestantism,” but part of the Protestant tradition. Protestantism is based solely on the Bible, which only teaches the predestination of believers, not unbelievers.

 

[RaisedCatholic]

That is not only paradox but absolute nonsense, the reconciliation of it is plain and simple.

It’s not nonsense, no-more than God being a Trinity. How do you explain God being One, but also three distinct Persons?

 

[Latin]

…

They are in PERFECT UNION with each other.
We will know further details on the subject in Heaven.

God bless

 

[RaisedCatholic]

They are in PERFECT UNION with each other.

So, is the wicked being unwilling & unable to believe in Jesus.

 

[Latin]

The Church does not teach universalism @Latin.

The Church officially may not yet teach God saves every member of the human race.
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Yet the whole Church is praying for the salvation of every member of the human race (CCC 1058) and we all should believe what we are praying for.
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Also, many members of the Catholic Church from about the highest level teaching from long time that God will save the entire human race, which is not heresy, the Church would not pray for the fulfilment of a heresy.

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Also Cardinal Luis F. Ladaria Jesuit theologian has been secretary, the second in command, of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith since 2008 until 02/07/2017 and from this date on Pope Francis appointed Cardinal Ladaria SJ. to the position of the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and he is teaching Universal Salvation since many years.
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The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith formerly known as the Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Roman and Universal Inquisition.
It was founded to defend the church from heresy; today, it is the body responsible for promulgating and defending Catholic doctrines.

So, the salvation of the entire human race is NOT HERESY (CCC 1058, etc.)!

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There is a very good book on Universal Salvation: Jesus Christ Salvation of All by Cardinal Luis F. Ladaria SJ (Author).
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EDITORIAL REVIEWS
“Luis F. Ladaria SJ presents a powerful statement openly advocating universal salvation.
His advocacy of universal salvation is openly and undeniably proclaimed. ”
David Sielaff, Associates for Scriptural Knowledge, ASK " David Sielaff, Associates for Scriptural Knowledge, ASK"

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Jesus Christ Salvation of All by Cardinal Luis F. Ladaria SJ.

“Jesus includes everyone and excludes no one, and all of us have received his fullness (cfr. John 1:16).

The universality of salvation and unity of Christ’s mediation mutually affirm each other.

Yet by dying, he gave us life that is the life of his resurrection.

Even those who do not know him are called to this divine vocation, that is, to the perfect son-ship in and through Christ.

Christians and non-Christians reach this goal by virtue of the gift of the Spirit that associates us with the unique paschal ministry of Christ even if it is through diverse paths known only to God.”

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In our modern Roman Catholic Church more and more Catholic theologians and Catholic Priests teaching Universal Salvation.

We all should believe what we are praying for, which is Universal Salvation.
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God bless

 

[J_Dudycha]

Forgive me, but I’m not exactly sure what your critical point is.

Are you still implying that all of Protestantism teaches double-predestination ?

RaisedCatholic made the point that Protestantism (in toto) does not adhere to the doctrine double-predestination, to which you responded with a quote of Calvin. Yes, Calvin said that, but not all Protestants follow Calvin.

I get the impression that you think that because John Calvin taught double-predestination, that therefore all Protestants believe in it. Again, this is demonstrably false.

As to your claim that the Church teaches Universalism, I think you’re failing to distinguish between how God desires that all be saved (1 Tim. 2:4) - that is, He wants everyone to come to Him - and the fact that many people will still reject Him (cf. the entire book of Revelation). You may want your child to obey you, but that doesn’t mean they will; it’s the same concept.

I recommend reading Burning Down the Shack by James B. DeYoung, which provides an absolute theological dismantlement of Universalism.

 

[EndTimes]

If anything, this reading has made me appreciate and love the “Eastern” theological tradition even more

Yet… The ‘theological’ conundrums which you’re encountering have led you to a struggle…

And we do not ever want to have “theology” come in-between us and our walk with Jesus/God

As another has implied - cease being concerned about ‘predestination’.

 

[Latin]

Latin:

They are in PERFECT UNION with each other.

So, is the wicked being unwilling & unable to believe in Jesus.

There is no mystery in that, we all came into this world as wicked being.

And how easy for us to look down on those whom God not yet recreated, and
call them wicked being unwilling & unable to believe in Jesus.

If God would not yet recreated us we would be the same wicked being …

God bless

 

[Cathoholic]

@Latin. The Church does not teach universalism.

 

[Gorgias]

Like I said Protestantism doesn’t teach double predestination.

There’s no such thing as “Protestantism”. The whole raison d’etre of the Reformation was to deny a unified body of Christianity (such as found in the Catholic Church) and replace it with local (i.e., national) denominations.

So, there’s no merit in making claims for “Protestantism”, since such an entity does not exist.

But yet, are you claiming that no Protestants believe in double predestination? Let’s see what you wrote:

This is a common misunderstanding of the Protestant understanding of predestination

Yep. There it is. You made a claim for all Protestants. A claim which, by the way, is demonstrably false.

RaisedCatholic made the point that Protestantism (in toto) does not adhere to the doctrine

Be careful with that sort of claim. The response will, quite reasonably be “Protestantism (in toto) simultaneously believes and disbelieves in all manners of doctrines.”

Or, are you making a claim that’s merely about the intersection of the sets of all doctrines of all Protestant denominations? That set, sadly, is rather small, if not altogether empty.

(p.s., @Latin? Universalism is not the teaching of the Catholic Church, and will never be.)

 

[J_Dudycha]

I disagree. My claim was exceedingly modest, and is easily verifiable. If a Protestant chooses to retort with…

“Protestantism (in toto) simultaneously believes and disbelieves in all manners of doctrines.”

…then I would kindly inform them that this information is a Red Herring, and in no way disproves my previous claim.

Or, are you making a claim that’s merely about the intersection of the sets of all doctrines of all Protestant denominations? That set, sadly, is rather small, if not altogether empty.

Not all doctrines, just the one we were previously discussing: double-predestination.

 

[EasternCelt]

Protestantism is based solely on the Bible, which only teaches the predestination of believers, not unbelievers.

Single predestination and double predestination are consequentially the same; this false dichotomy is born of sophistry.