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Doxiemom
Guest
I never considered catholics to anything other than christian.
Actually my response was two-fold
first…I cringe when modern day catholics try to minimize the inqusition and crusades. Whether one person or one million people were subjected to this horror, it never should have happened. This was not the stuff of God. What happened did happen.
Second… While we can admit that our church did these things and we are sorry that it has to be part of our church history, i get very angry when this subject is brought up by non-catholics who use it to justify their stance that Catholicism is not christian. Some of them spout off at the mouth as if the pope today is authorizing crusades and killing or torturing Jews, or atheists or muslims or protestants as herectics and Christ killers.
No one today is responsible for those awful times. But we cannnot live in denial that it is true it happened.
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bookgirl32
Guest
I don’t think anyone here is claiming that the Inquisition and the Crusades never happened. But the point of the discussion is to examine what is historically and theologically accurate about them. If you asked someone off of the street what the Spanish Inquisition was, they might say, “When the Catholic Church killed a bunch of people for not being Catholic.” That blanket statement is what most people know or have been taught. The room for historical and theological error in that statement, and the ammunition that statement gives to groups wanting to use the general population’s ignorance as to details for their own agendas, are what make this discussion necessary.
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Drawmack
Guest
Yeah, this thread is a crusade against lies about the inquisition
(I’m sorry I couldn’t resist.)
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bookgirl32
Guest
NiceYeah, this thread is a crusade against lies about the inquisition
(I’m sorry I couldn’t resist.)
.
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fultonfish
Guest
Most people don’t realize that the sweep of Islam into Europe began more than a thousand years ago.
The Europeans fought a defensive war for a thousand years but have been on a more or less continuous retreat the whole time.
Most people don’t realize that the famous Crusades into the Middle East over several hundred years and the unknown and unacknowledged crusades into Spain over 800 years were part of that defensive campaign.
Most people don’t realize that the Inquisition was part of the “exit strategy” in the Spanish theater of operations.
The Church used to celebrate the Battle of Tours in France which was won by Charles Martel, but the Church didn’t get into the reason for the battle which marked the northern most invasion of Europe by the Muslim armies.
The invasion up from North Africa started in AD 711 at a place called Tarif and they lasted until AD 1492. After nearly 800 years of occupation by the Moors, there was a lot of political and psychological damage that needed to be worked out. And the Inquisition was part of that climate of recovering from 800 years of enemy occupation.
It was gratifying to me that last week, a pastor wrote his weekly bulletin letter about the Battle of Lepanto, about which I knew nothing until Catholic Answers published an article about it in “This Rock” magazine. Lepanto marked the turning point of the naval campaign against what is now Italy.
The famous Crusades into the Holy Land took place over hundreds of years and caused the Islamic armies to become somewhat defensive. The furthest west invasion was stopped at Vienna by the Polish. The battle of Vienna is now famous because it took place on 9/11.
So, it is important for people to read, read, read. Every book and every article. And talk it up. You need to write or draw up your own chronology or time line, because you won’t find this stuff tied up into a neat package in any one place [that I know of].
Most books that I have seen talk about the Crusades as it they just happen to take place with absolutely no reason.
And most books treat the Inquisition similarly in isolation, just another quirky abhorrent knee jerk action by the Church, just like being against sin. Just out of the clear blue sky.
With respect to sin, it’s important to read the Ten Commandments and understand they are real and not arbitrary.
With respect to the Crusades and the Inquisition, they were a response to the invasion of Europe [what is now Turkey / Constantinoble / Istanbul / Byzantium ) and the Holy Land and Spain / France / North Africa / Egypt by armies directed by Islamic countries.
Sorry for trying to condense European history from 635 to date in two paragraphs. But it’s all related.
By the way, the first foreign war fought by the United States was in 1805 by President Jefferson against the “Corsairs” [Muslim pirates in North Africa who attacked Europe and Mediterranean shipping from 1492 to 1825].
The issue of the Inquisition is extremely complex. And you want to really read everything. They don’t lay it all out for you, so you have to do the heavy lifting for yourself.
President Jefferson was the first U.S. president to attempt to fight off Islamic attackers. President George W. Bush was the most recent U.S. president to attempt to fight off Islamic attackers. Jefferson had problems and bureaucrats who resisted the fight. Bush also had problems and bureaucrats who resisted the fight.*
The Europeans fought a defensive war for a thousand years but have been on a more or less continuous retreat the whole time.
Most people don’t realize that the famous Crusades into the Middle East over several hundred years and the unknown and unacknowledged crusades into Spain over 800 years were part of that defensive campaign.
Most people don’t realize that the Inquisition was part of the “exit strategy” in the Spanish theater of operations.
The Church used to celebrate the Battle of Tours in France which was won by Charles Martel, but the Church didn’t get into the reason for the battle which marked the northern most invasion of Europe by the Muslim armies.
The invasion up from North Africa started in AD 711 at a place called Tarif and they lasted until AD 1492. After nearly 800 years of occupation by the Moors, there was a lot of political and psychological damage that needed to be worked out. And the Inquisition was part of that climate of recovering from 800 years of enemy occupation.
It was gratifying to me that last week, a pastor wrote his weekly bulletin letter about the Battle of Lepanto, about which I knew nothing until Catholic Answers published an article about it in “This Rock” magazine. Lepanto marked the turning point of the naval campaign against what is now Italy.
The famous Crusades into the Holy Land took place over hundreds of years and caused the Islamic armies to become somewhat defensive. The furthest west invasion was stopped at Vienna by the Polish. The battle of Vienna is now famous because it took place on 9/11.
So, it is important for people to read, read, read. Every book and every article. And talk it up. You need to write or draw up your own chronology or time line, because you won’t find this stuff tied up into a neat package in any one place [that I know of].
Most books that I have seen talk about the Crusades as it they just happen to take place with absolutely no reason.
And most books treat the Inquisition similarly in isolation, just another quirky abhorrent knee jerk action by the Church, just like being against sin. Just out of the clear blue sky.
With respect to sin, it’s important to read the Ten Commandments and understand they are real and not arbitrary.
With respect to the Crusades and the Inquisition, they were a response to the invasion of Europe [what is now Turkey / Constantinoble / Istanbul / Byzantium ) and the Holy Land and Spain / France / North Africa / Egypt by armies directed by Islamic countries.
Sorry for trying to condense European history from 635 to date in two paragraphs. But it’s all related.
By the way, the first foreign war fought by the United States was in 1805 by President Jefferson against the “Corsairs” [Muslim pirates in North Africa who attacked Europe and Mediterranean shipping from 1492 to 1825].
The issue of the Inquisition is extremely complex. And you want to really read everything. They don’t lay it all out for you, so you have to do the heavy lifting for yourself.
President Jefferson was the first U.S. president to attempt to fight off Islamic attackers. President George W. Bush was the most recent U.S. president to attempt to fight off Islamic attackers. Jefferson had problems and bureaucrats who resisted the fight. Bush also had problems and bureaucrats who resisted the fight.*
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chosen_people
Guest
The point is what do you wish to accomplish.
If you want to know the truth about the Spanish Inquisition then 140 thousand Jews lived for a thousand years on the Iberian peninsula. The background for the Inquisition was the inflaming of Catholics against Jews by Catholic priests which led to riots and the murder of Jews. It zenith may be seen as the forced expulsion of all Jews in 1492 (many being thrown overboard the ships to their deaths). In the end every single Jew, all 140 thousand of them, was either forced to convert, murdered or expelled. The Jewish community on the Iberian peninsula was destroyed.
Now if you want to learn about the Spanish Inquisition you may want to read Benzion Netanyahu’s The origins of the the Inquisition in fifteenth century Spain (second edition). However the book is over a thousand pages, filled with historical research and facts and does not have as its goal trying to whitewash the acts of the Catholic church against the Jews.
Lockwood on the other hand is the type of Catholic apologist who will explain to you, for example, that Jews were indeed put into ghettos by the Catholic Church but that “it was for their own protection”. He forgets to elaborate that what the Jews needed protection from was being murdered by Catholic anti-Semites. He also forgets to add that the Jews were made to wear special clothing marking them as Jews so that when the Catholic anti-Semite wanted to murder the Jew he had a well marked target.Of course, if he had pointed out that fact everyone would understand how silly and misleading his whole protection of the Jews premise was in the first place.
Reading Lockwood on the Inquisition or the Crusades or the Mortara affair is like have Bishop Williamson explain the Shoah. Williamson will tell you that if there was a Shoah, and he’s not saying there was, then there was no organized final solution of the Jews and there were no gas chambers. He will tell you that “only a few hundred thousand Jews” died and the whole thing about six million Jews being murdered is nonsense.
Except that Germany had the sense and the moral courage not to go the Lockwood route. It admitted the horrendous acts of the Nazi regime against the Jews, educated its population about the Shoah and the final solution and the gas chambers. It paid reparations to the families of the six million victims and it passed laws to prevent that sort of thing from ever happening again or even having it denied that it ever happened.
The result is that today the least anti-Semitic country in Europe is ironically Germany.
Now there is no end to extreme Catholic apologists like Lockwood who will explain that this whole Inquisition thing (or Crusade thing or Mortara affair thing) is just being used to attack Catholics, that the whole thing is being blown out of proportion, that it didn’t really happen the way everybody think it happened. In other words, Williamson on the Shoah.
The problem is that it did happen. The problem is that unlike Germany a Catholic Church going the Lockwood route, as opposed to Germany’s route after the Shoah, doesn’t learn anything and doesn’t do anything to understand past mistakes. The problem is that when you try to explain away the Spanish Inquisition, or the massacre of Jews in the Crusades or try to defend the Mortara affair, you place yourself in the same category and engender the same disdain that good people reserve for Holocaust deniers. So if Germany is the least anti-Semitic state in Europe maybe we shouldn’t be surprised that given the attempts to belittle the horrors of the Inquisition, the country generally considered to be the most anti-Semitic in western Europe is Spain.
If you want to know the truth about the Spanish Inquisition then 140 thousand Jews lived for a thousand years on the Iberian peninsula. The background for the Inquisition was the inflaming of Catholics against Jews by Catholic priests which led to riots and the murder of Jews. It zenith may be seen as the forced expulsion of all Jews in 1492 (many being thrown overboard the ships to their deaths). In the end every single Jew, all 140 thousand of them, was either forced to convert, murdered or expelled. The Jewish community on the Iberian peninsula was destroyed.
Now if you want to learn about the Spanish Inquisition you may want to read Benzion Netanyahu’s The origins of the the Inquisition in fifteenth century Spain (second edition). However the book is over a thousand pages, filled with historical research and facts and does not have as its goal trying to whitewash the acts of the Catholic church against the Jews.
Lockwood on the other hand is the type of Catholic apologist who will explain to you, for example, that Jews were indeed put into ghettos by the Catholic Church but that “it was for their own protection”. He forgets to elaborate that what the Jews needed protection from was being murdered by Catholic anti-Semites. He also forgets to add that the Jews were made to wear special clothing marking them as Jews so that when the Catholic anti-Semite wanted to murder the Jew he had a well marked target.Of course, if he had pointed out that fact everyone would understand how silly and misleading his whole protection of the Jews premise was in the first place.
Reading Lockwood on the Inquisition or the Crusades or the Mortara affair is like have Bishop Williamson explain the Shoah. Williamson will tell you that if there was a Shoah, and he’s not saying there was, then there was no organized final solution of the Jews and there were no gas chambers. He will tell you that “only a few hundred thousand Jews” died and the whole thing about six million Jews being murdered is nonsense.
Except that Germany had the sense and the moral courage not to go the Lockwood route. It admitted the horrendous acts of the Nazi regime against the Jews, educated its population about the Shoah and the final solution and the gas chambers. It paid reparations to the families of the six million victims and it passed laws to prevent that sort of thing from ever happening again or even having it denied that it ever happened.
The result is that today the least anti-Semitic country in Europe is ironically Germany.
Now there is no end to extreme Catholic apologists like Lockwood who will explain that this whole Inquisition thing (or Crusade thing or Mortara affair thing) is just being used to attack Catholics, that the whole thing is being blown out of proportion, that it didn’t really happen the way everybody think it happened. In other words, Williamson on the Shoah.
The problem is that it did happen. The problem is that unlike Germany a Catholic Church going the Lockwood route, as opposed to Germany’s route after the Shoah, doesn’t learn anything and doesn’t do anything to understand past mistakes. The problem is that when you try to explain away the Spanish Inquisition, or the massacre of Jews in the Crusades or try to defend the Mortara affair, you place yourself in the same category and engender the same disdain that good people reserve for Holocaust deniers. So if Germany is the least anti-Semitic state in Europe maybe we shouldn’t be surprised that given the attempts to belittle the horrors of the Inquisition, the country generally considered to be the most anti-Semitic in western Europe is Spain.
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unafraid
Guest
I think it would be very edifying instead to read a book on “The History of Evil”, running from the dawn of man to the present age. In it there would be ample chapters including all of the varied groups which comprise mankind. Then, instead of endlessly qualifying and quantifying evil, and assigning greater culpability to this or that group, we would come to recognize that we all share the same dark stain which marks us all.
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Doxiemom
Guest
You are so right.
We need not fear the truth. What we need to do is not repeat it. And if we deny the truth, the past can become the present again.
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Drawmack
Guest
This was a most interesting read. I’ve read much on the inquisition from Protestant, Catholic, and secular sources but I’ve never thought to read anything from the Jewish perspective. Could you recommend a book that is a little more digestible, for an interested party but not a historian, but that is still factual and from the Jewish perspective?
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Drawmack
Guest
Actually, I would go one farther and quote Witgenstien, “He who forgets the past is doomed to repeat it.”
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Secret_Square
Guest
*And the Inquisition was part of that climate of recovering from 800 years of enemy occupation.
**
Well, the producers may have had a point there. If the Moors were still to be considered “invaders” in Spain after they had been there for 800 years, then logically, Native Americans should still consider everyone of European descent “invaders” and “enemy occupiers” to the present-day U.S. and Canada… since we’ve “only” been here about 500 years.
This just goes to show how difficult it is to right age-old historical wrongs without doing MORE wrong to people who had nothing to do with the original wrong.
*
**
Well, the producers may have had a point there. If the Moors were still to be considered “invaders” in Spain after they had been there for 800 years, then logically, Native Americans should still consider everyone of European descent “invaders” and “enemy occupiers” to the present-day U.S. and Canada… since we’ve “only” been here about 500 years.
This just goes to show how difficult it is to right age-old historical wrongs without doing MORE wrong to people who had nothing to do with the original wrong.
*
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estesbob
Guest
I have not been able to find any evidence that the Catholic Church ordered the deportation of all Jews from the Iberian Penninsula. Could you give us a link to this document?
The idea that Germany is the least anti-semtic country in Europe is simply not ture. The fact that they have changed condemnation of “Jews” to condemantion of “Zionists” is merey a semantics game that alows them to attack Jews and still be politically correct.
The Jerusalem Post sums it up nicely here:
jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1246443777808&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FPrinter
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Axion
Guest
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patricius79
Guest
I especially like you application of the Scriptures here. Well said.
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