Struggling with the Second Secret of Fatima

[Bookcat]

However, for the message of Our Lady itself, we only have St. Lucia as witness.

More than that - we have the approval of the Catholic Church.

TAnd the way the message was reported by St. Lucia does not look particularly logically coherent.

Sure it does.

See above.

 

[Bookcat]

Thus, the seeming incoherence of the way the message of Our Lady was reported by St. Lucia is a problem, which provides an argument for skeptics. Our task is to solve this problem, in order to break through the healthy skepticism of those who hear about this story for the first time.

And it simply is not a problem as has been explained.

 

[Bookcat]

However, I was very disappointed to find out that St. Lucia revealed the “mistakes of Russia” message only in 1941.

Hence the root of your questions.

See the greater picture at work - and the vision of Our Lady as to* when* to reveal what.

Allow it to simply still amaze one that such was given in 1917 in the first place.

And of course all the rest (the even of the sun etc).

 

[Bookcat]

No one can verify that this message was ever transmitted before 1941. A disinterested observer is strongly tempted to suspect that St. Lucia just made up the “mistakes of Russia” narrative long after 1917, when the threat of communism to Christianity became clear and obvious to everyone. This is something I, as a Catholic, do not want to believe. And I want to find rational arguments to prevent such conclusion.

Sr. Lucia notes in her letters:

“this remained a secret until 1926 according to the express will of our Lady.”

(Documents on Fatima & Memoirs of Sr. Lucia. (Alexandria, SD: Fatima Family Apostolate)

As noted - as Our Lady explained explicitly in the secret in 1917 - she would* later* come and ask for the consecration of Russia etc. It was to await the right time.

And in 1929 She came and asked - when the time was right - and Pope Pius XI was informed of the request. (rather Prior to WWII)

(not in the 1940’s)

The timing was that of Our Lady.

The secret and the request etc were not to given for the purpose of giving evidence of Our Lady’s visits.

The event that particularly sets the reality of Fatima in highlight- is the event of the Sun.

 

[JurisPrudens]

And it simply is not a problem as has been explained.

I am sorry, but I have not seen a feasible explanation from You so far.

As recently as yesterday I tried to explain Fatima to my secular friends. It went like this: “Our Lady made a warning to that girl, which She told her to keep secret… - Wait, but why make a warning, if you ask to keep it secret, in the first place? - Well, Our Lady made it a temporary secret…” - and by the mere look on the face of my friends one could see that the story looked just way too forced and with too many suspicious facts to be credible. And I am sad to admit that I felt the same.

 

[Bookcat]

I am sorry, but I have not seen a feasible explanation from You so far.

As recently as yesterday I tried to explain Fatima to my secular friends. It went like this: “Our Lady made a warning to that girl, which She told her to keep secret… - Wait, but why make a warning, if you ask to keep it secret, in the first place? - Well, Our Lady made it a temporary secret…” - and by the mere look on the face of my friends one could see that the story looked just way too forced and with too many suspicious facts to be credible. And I am sad to admit that I felt the same.

What they have never heard of classified information - that later then is released to some as needed and then much later released to all.

Keep thinking about what I have noted.

1917 - given.

Told Our Lady will come to tell them when to reveal it.

1925 - Our Lady comes and reveals the details for the First Saturdays…

These are revealed…(for it was time).

1929- revealed for the Pope. And the Consecration asked…(for it is now was time).

And do not let them miss the reality of the event of the sun witnessed by so many -including those who came to work against the events…(that was foretold as the sign for Fatima …not the secrets).

 

[Church_Militant]

JP you’re all messed up on this and seem to think that there’s something wrong here. That is not the case and this is not the first that God has chosen to do this, See the passage below.

*** Daniel 12: ***[1] “At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time; but at that time your people shall be delivered, every one whose name shall be found written in the book. [2] And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. [3] And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the firmament; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. [4] But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.” [5] Then I Daniel looked, and behold, two others stood, one on this bank of the stream and one on that bank of the stream. [6] And I said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream, “How long shall it be till the end of these wonders?” [7] The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream, raised his right hand and his left hand toward heaven; and I heard him swear by him who lives forever that it would be for a time, two times, and half a time; and that when the shattering of the power of the holy people comes to an end all these things would be accomplished. [8] I heard, but I did not understand. Then I said, “O my lord, what shall be the issue of these things?” [9] He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end. [10] Many shall purify themselves, and make themselves white, and be refined; but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand; but those who are wise shall understand. [11] And from the time that the continual burnt offering is taken away, and the abomination that makes desolate is set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. [12] Blessed is he who waits and comes to the thousand three hundred and thirty-five days. [13] But go your way till the end; and you shall rest, and shall stand in your allotted place at the end of the days.”

 

[Roseeurekacross]

I sense you may be a little frustrated , especially if trying to explain this to others.

We cannot know the mind or intentions of Our Lady. Therefore we can give you no solid truthful practical answer.

We can pray for this revelation. Perhaps Our Lady will answer, perhaps not. Is there any more in her message from Akita?

I would also not focus on warning and prophecy, but on the message. The message of Our Lady is Penance, Reparation and Prayer - for the conversion of sinners , and for appeasing the anger of God. Hey God we care!

 

[sleepydad]

Fatima vision has led to a lot of confusion. If it happened at all, it might have been a demonic vision posing as Mary.

 

[Bookcat]

Fatima vision has led to a lot of confusion. If it happened at all, it might have been a demonic vision posing as Mary.

No one ought not to say that.

This has been investigated and approved by the Church.

 

[Bookcat]

Fatima has been approved by the Church. It is very worthy of belief (human belief).

 

[JohnR77]

The Church recognized the Fatima apparition as worthy of belief, because of the public supernatural signs that accompanied it. However, for the message of Our Lady itself, we only have St. Lucia as witness. And the way the message was reported by St. Lucia does not look particularly logically coherent.

i think the holiness of the children is a greater testimony to its validity.
They were canonized because of their holiness, not because they saw the apparition.

http://www.ewtn.com/fatima/third-apparition-of-our-lady.asp
Mary said, “Remember, you must not tell this to anyone except Francisco. “

The possession of the Secret proved to be very great trial for the three young ones. Family, neighbors, followers of the apparitions, even the clergy, tried unsuccessfully to get them to reveal it. Finally, as the day of the August apparition approached even the civil government, which was secular and virulently anti-clerical, alarmed by the numbers of people taking an interest in the Fátima events, attempted to wrest it from them and in the process expose the Church as a collaborator in a fraud.

…Thus, the seeming incoherence of the way the message of Our Lady was reported by St. Lucia is a problem, … No one can verify that this message was ever transmitted before 1941. A disinterested observer is strongly tempted to suspect that St. Lucia just made up the “mistakes of Russia” narrative long after 1917, when the threat of communism to Christianity became clear and obvious to everyone. This is something I, as a Catholic, do not want to believe. And I want to find rational arguments to prevent such conclusion.

These apparitions took place in 1917 and several months before the “October Revolution,” of the Communist in Russia in November of that year.
[Russians used a different calendar.
It was on their 25th of October, 1917 ( or according to our Old Style and New Style dates - Wikipedia”]New Style Gregorian Calendar the Russian “October Revolution” took place on November 7, 1917).]

Notice that the message was temporarily just for the three children. Mary said that she would come at a later date in the future asking that the consecration of Russia and the First Saturday’s devotions at this later time be spread to the world.
The miracle of the Sun on October 13, 1917 was message enough to repent and turn toward Jesus.

 

[JohnR77]

To add to Bookcat’s

Timeline :

In the July 13, 1917 message Mary said, “. To prevent this, I shall cometo ask for the consecration of Russia to my Immaculate Heart, and the Communion of reparation on the First Saturdays. If my requests are heeded, Russia will be converted, and there will be peace; if not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred; the Holy Father will have much to suffer; various nations will be annihilated. In the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph. …”

December 10, 19****25 - Our Lady of Fatima appears to Sr. Lucia now in the convent in Pontevedra, Spain and asks for sacramental reparation of Confession and Holy Communion on First Saturdays, plus praying the Rosary with meditation on its mysteries. First Saturdays are associated with the spiritual welfare of Russia. A spiritual bonus is promised to individuals of Marys intercession to assist at the hour of death with all the graces necessary for salvation all those who, on the first Saturday of five consecutive months, perform the acts of reparation requested. Reparation on every first Saturday however is encouraged for the good of mankind.

June 13, 19****29 - Sister Lucia in the Convent at Tuy, Spain receives an appearance of Our Lady of Fatima to ask the Pope and bishops of the world for the Consecration of Russia to her Immaculate Heart, promising by this means to prevent the spreading of its errors and to bring about its conversion.

October 31, 19****42 - Pope Pius XII consecrates the world to the Immaculate Heart of Mary

May 13, 19****46 - Pius XII through a legate crowns the image of Our Lady of Fatima and proclaims her Queen of the World. Popes begin calling Fatima Altar of the World.

October 13, 19****51 - Closing ceremonies for the Holy Year of the universal Church is held at Fatima.

July 7, 19****52 - Pius XII consecrates the Russian people to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.

November 21, 19****64 - Pope Paul VI renews Pius XII’s consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart, speaking to the Fathers of the Second Vatican Council but still does it alone. Sister Lucia insists it should be collegial.

May 13, 19****65- Pope Paul VI sends a Golden Rose to Fatima, confiding the entire Church to our Ladys protection and gives official Church recognition of Fatimas significance for the universal Church.

May 13, 19****67 - Pope Paul VI goes to Fatima, as the first Pope to go there as a pilgrim. There he calls for renewed consecration to the Immaculate Heart.

May 13, 1981 - Pope John Paul II is shot in St. Peters Square on May 13, anniversary of the first apparition at Fatima. During the long months of suffering and recuperation in Gemelli Hospital, the Holy Father requests and studies more deeply documents relating to Fatima. His determination to consecrate Russia with bishops of the world grows stronger. In leaving the clinic he remarks: I have come to understand that the only way to save the world from war, to save it from atheism, is the conversion of Russia according to the message of Fatima.

May 12-13, 1982 - The Pope visits Fatima to thank Our Lady for sparing his life and says: In the plans of Divine Providence I also saw an appeal and, who knows, a reminder of the message which came from here 65 years ago. … He conducted a consecration of the world and Russia at that time but many bishops did not receive the request to join him in time and Sister Lucia said it did not fulfill all the requirements.

March 25, 1984 - Pope John Paul II having sent invitations already in December 1983 to the worlds bishops, including Orthodox, to join him on March 25, 1984, he had Bishop Amaral of Fatima bring the Miraculous statue from the Cova da Iria at Fatima to the Vatican for the Collegial Consecration of the world and Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. He was joined by a moral totality of the worlds bishops in the Act of Consecration to the Immaculate Heart. The words of the cons-ecration make clear it is a collegial act with worlds bishops and also renews Pius XIIs acts of 1942 (world) and 1952 (Russia) and the consecration is for all time. [See our book Documents of Fatima for details on Consecration].

Shortly thereafter, Sister Lucia told the Papal Nuncio of Lisbon the Collegial Consecration for the conversion of Russia has been accomplished and God will keep His word.

Meaning of Devotion to the Immaculate Heart
Cardinal Ratzinger then explained briefly the meaning of this devotion. “In biblical language, the ‘heart’ indicates the center of human life, the point where reason, will, temperament and sensitivity converge, where the person finds his unity and his interior orientation. According to Matthew 5:8, the ‘immaculate heart’ is a heart which, with God’s grace, has come to perfect interior unity and therefore ‘sees God.’ To be ‘devoted’ to the Immaculate Heart of Mary means therefore to embrace this attitude of heart, which makes the fiat - ‘your will be done’ - the defining center of one’s whole life.

John
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