Struggling with The Tyrannical warrior God of the Old Testement

[Della]

Indeed. The Bible is a collection of writings selected by the Catholic Church which require interpretation - as is evident from the thousands of Protestant sects which have sprung up as the result of individuals believing they are unique in their understanding of the Word of God. Theologians disagree on the interpretation of many texts but they are united in their belief in the basic doctrines formulated by the Church. The precise meaning of texts in the Old Testament pales into insignificance in the context of the uniqueness and beauty of Christ’s teaching. To parody John Keats, “That is all ye know on earth and all ye need to know…”

I don’t see this in MindOverMatter’s posts. I see someone who is being influenced by atheistic attacks on the Bible and on the God of the Bible. This isn’t about theologians interpreting Scripture, it’s about accusing God of being a “tyrant”, as MindOverMatter put it in his thread title. That tells me he is reading atheists’ attacks and taking them seriously instead of looking to the Church and solid theology.

MindOverMatter, you need to gain wisdom in these matters, not question Holy Writ nor listen to atheists’ attacks on God. I tossed and turned over your words and prayed for you in the wee hours of the morning, and that is the answer that came to me. Seek wisdom. And, the beginning of wisdom is “fear of the Lord” not skepticism. Immerse yourself in God and his Church, not in the negations of the world that is constantly fighting against our Faith.

 

[jonfawkes]

Why would God give us an intellect if we were not to use it. Is faith so fragile that it can’t be challenged? (I.E listening to Atheist attacks.) If it can’t stand up to critique where is it’s strength?

 

[Della]

Why would God give us an intellect if we were not to use it. Is faith so fragile that it can’t be challenged? (I.E listening to Atheist attacks.) If it can’t stand up to critique where is it’s strength?

It isn’t the Faith that is so fragile but our personal faith most certainly can be. It’s why I wrote that one must be immersed in God. I should have added that only when one is immersed in God can one stand up to such attacks. But, that doesn’t mean that atheists will accept the explanations given by people of faith–far from it. We can explain, quite well and reasonably too, until we’re blue in the face, but if someone is determined to not hear any explanation that doesn’t negate our trust in Christ and his Church, then it isn’t worth the effort. Jesus was quite right and wise when he told us not to cast our pearls before swine. Not because the pearls have no value, but because the swine have no ability to appreciate them. People aren’t swine, of course, but if they will not listen but only drag those in doubt or weak in faith down with them what good has been done to either?

 

[jonfawkes]

It seems that the Faithful make some basic assumptions that the faithless don’t share - most notably that God is good and all our interactions stem from his love for us.

So something like 1 Samuel 15:2-3 which is a command by God to kill every living thing.

To the faithful it shows God’s love for the Israelites to give them victory over their enemies. To the faithless it seems that God only showing favor to a few. To other part he is cruel.

Both are groups are His creation - both are His children.

So to a human sense of ethics - how do you set one child against another. Shouldn’t He be looking after both.

If you believe God is goodness - anything He does is acceptable… but that requires faith. Without it seems horrible and cruel.

 

[Elijah_Baley]

It seems that the Faithful make some basic assumptions that the faithless don’t share - most notably that God is good and all our interactions stem from his love for us.

So something like 1 Samuel 15:2-3 which is a command by God to kill every living thing.

To the faithful it shows God’s love for the Israelites to give them victory over their enemies. To the faithless it seems that God only showing favor to a few. To other part he is cruel.

Both are groups are His creation - both are His children.

So to a human sense of ethics - how do you set one child against another. Shouldn’t He be looking after both.

If you believe God is goodness - anything He does is acceptable… but that requires faith. Without it seems horrible and cruel.

Amalekites turned their backs to God. While Israelites were fleeing out of Egypt, the Amelekites began to kill Israelites.

It cannot be said that the Amalekites were innocent.

 

[jonfawkes]

They are still God’s creation, still His Children.

 

[Windfish]

I highly encourage you guys to read the link I posted to the Christian ThinkTank. It may shed more light.

I mean, I am not kidding when I say that we simply cannot pick up the Bible and understand it without doing some serious work. As the link shows, there are some Jewish idioms and other idiosyncratic stuff being used in these pages which may clarify the content.

 

[Elijah_Baley]

I highly encourage you guys to read the link I posted to the Christian ThinkTank. It may shed more light.

I mean, I am not kidding when I say that we simply cannot pick up the Bible and understand it without doing some serious work. As the link shows, there are some Jewish idioms and other idiosyncratic stuff being used in these pages which may clarify the content.

I’ll excerpt for him.

They are still God’s creation, still His Children.

From ChristianThinkTank:

The Amalekite initiative looks like an ordered annihilation.
This is what the LORD Almighty says: `I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’" (I Sam 15.2f)
The situation is thus:

• The Amalekites are a predatory, raiding, and nomadic group; and are descendants of Esau (and hence, distant cousins to Israel).
• They would have been aware of the promise of the Land TO Israel, from the early promises to Esau’s twin Jacob.
• They did NOT live in Canaan (but in the lower, desert part of the Negev–a region south of where Judah will eventually settle), and would NOT have been threatened by Israel–had they believed the promises of God.
• As soon as Israel escapes Egypt–before they can even ‘catch their breath’–the Amalekites make a long journey south(!) and attack Israel.
• Their first targets were the helpless:

Remember what the Amalekites did to you along the way when you came out of Egypt. 18 When you were weary and worn out, they met you on your journey and cut off all who were lagging behind; they had no fear of God. 19 When the LORD your God gives you rest from all the enemies around you in the land he is giving you to possess as an inheritance, you shall blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven. Do not forget! (Deut 25.17-19).​

• Before the attack on Amalek is initiated by Israel, the innocent are told to ‘move away’ from them: Saul went to the city of Amalek and set an ambush in the ravine. 6 Then he said to the Kenites, “Go away, leave the Amalekites so that I do not destroy you along with them; for you showed kindness to all the Israelites when they came up out of Egypt.” So the Kenites moved away from the Amalekites. (I Sam 15.5f). This action would have also served to give the people of Amalek plenty of notice (i.e., time to ‘move away’ themselves), and the impending attack by Saul–especially with the troop counts reported!–would hardly have been a surprise. Some of them would likely have fled–we KNOW all of them were not killed, since they ‘lived to fight/raid again’ in David’s time (I Sam 27,30) and even in Hezekiah’s time (200-300 years later!, 1 Chr 4.43).

Kaiser notes in EBC: Exodus 17.8:

• Amalek’s assault on Israel drew the anger of God on two counts:
  1. they failed to recognize the hand and plan of God in Israel’s life and destiny (even the farther-removed Canaanites of Jericho had been given plenty to think about when they heard about the Exodus–Josh 2.10); and
  2. the first targets of their warfare were the sick, aged, and tired of Israel who lagged behind the line of march (Deut 25:17-19).
  3. But Amalek continues to repeatedly oppress, terrorize, and vandalize Israel for between 200 and 400 more years! And yet, Amalekites were freely accepted as immigrants to Israel during this period.
  Let’s note again that:
  1. • they had plenty of access to ‘truth’ (at LEAST 400 years since Jacob and Land-promise), plus enough information about the miraculous Exodus to know where/when to attack Israel;
     • even their war conduct was cruel by current standards(!);
     • the semi-annihilation was a judgment;
     • God was willing to spare the innocent people–and specifically gave them the opportunity to move away;
     • children living in the households of stubbornly-hostile parents (who refused to flee or join Israel earlier) died swiftly in the one-day event (instead of being killed–as homeless orphans–by a combination of starvation, wild beasts, exposure, disease, and other raiders; or instead of being captured and sold as foreign slaves by neighboring tribes, for the older ones perhaps?)–they are victims of their fathers’ terrorist and oppressive habits toward Israel;
     • the innocent members of the community (Kenites) and any change-of-heart Amalekites who fled are delivered (along with their children of the household).

 

[jonfawkes]

I can see why the Israelites would be angry and might feel justified but not God’s role.

He’s God he could have removed them from the land, or sent a plague etc but there deaths were at the Israelites hand. He’s setting one child against the other.

What I see here is an argument for the death penalty - if you are bad enough you deserve to die and by the people’s hand.

Also in regards to the children Slaughtering or starvation is a false dilemma, why didn’t they just adopt the children.

The justification for slaughtering them sounds like a justification for abortion - if their parents aren’t there to take care of them it’s better they die.

This justification seems very anti-catholic. Contrary to Catholic teaching.

 

[tonyrey]

*Indeed. The Bible is a collection of writings selected by the Catholic Church which require interpretation - as is evident from the thousands of Protestant sects which have sprung up as the result of individuals believing they are unique in their understanding of the Word of God. Theologians disagree on the interpretation of many texts but they are united in their belief in the basic doctrines formulated by the Church. The precise meaning of texts in the Old Testament pales into insignificance in the context of the uniqueness and beauty of Christ’s teaching. To parody John Keats, “That is all ye know on earth and all ye need to know…” *

I prefer to let MindOverMatter speak for himself…

 

[tonyrey]

I have always found it disturbing, to come across Catholics who spout atheist and skeptic beliefs. Which is what the above looks like.

I find it very disturbing that you can accuse another Catholic of seeming “to spout atheist and skeptic beliefs” simply because he is investigating the meaning of Scripture…

 

[Della]

I prefer to let MindOverMatter speak for himself…

And I am responding to what he has written. I don’t see why I shouldn’t when he has expressed his thoughts/concerns/questions on an open forum.

If he doesn’t want to read what his fellow Catholics have to tell him he doesn’t have to post. That’s what we’re here for, after all. At least, that why I’m here.

I and others have answered him and answered him well. Now it’s up to him to delve into these things using solid information, such as has been supplied here. But, along with that, he, as we all do, needs the wisdom that comes from God alone. It’s ridiculous to think we can understand God’s actions without employing divine wisdom.

 

[violet81]

The God of the OT is interpreted through human beings. The God of the NT spoke for Himself.

Take the OT as important anthropological insight into Salvation History. Take the NT as the Gospel Truth.

 

[Elijah_Baley]

Also in regards to the children Slaughtering or starvation is a false dilemma, why didn’t they just adopt the children.

The justification for slaughtering them sounds like a justification for abortion - if their parents aren’t there to take care of them it’s better they die.

GIven that this was specifically commanded by God, who says the children were not saved?

 

[donsnow]

Why would God give us an intellect if we were not to use it. Is faith so fragile that it can’t be challenged? (I.E listening to Atheist attacks.) If it can’t stand up to critique where is it’s strength?

Hi, jonfawkes,

I would like to share my examination of and my remarks about your post, with you.

“Why would God give us an intellect if we were not to use it.”
We’re supposed to use it to magnify the Lord our God and use it to glorify Him. We are supposed to use it in our work for Him. We are not supposed to use it to shred the faith He gave us, nor to darken the hope which is in Him for us.

“Is faith so fragile that it cannot be challenged?”
Faith is like a shield, and strong; it is a person’s hold on faith which can be weak or fragile. If your hold on that shield is broken, you drop it and it will not protect you from the
Devil’s darts, because you didn’t hold on to it. Protect your hold on your faith and it will protect you.

“(I.E., listening to Atheist attacks.”
In the Gospel, Jesus says, “Be careful what you hear.”
Also, Paul writes, “It is by hearing the word that we believe it.” It is our nature to accept what we hear. When you listen to an atheist’s attack, if you are not prepared, that atheist can sway you…push you off balance.

“If it can’t stand up to critique where is it’s strength?”
Again, faith is a shield, but it is your strength which holds that shield. If your mind is not trained to recognize and discard atheist propaganda, your focus will be diffused.
Some fail to recognize that not only is the faith under attack, but also the believe is under attack for holding onto that faith.

So, in reply to your post I would like to say, it read like you were repeating the words of an atheist’s attack on you and your faith.

Also in response to the OP of this thread: the more you love God, the more you will want to protect Him from these false charges. The more you will want what He has for you, the more you love Him. The more you will want to keep what He has given you.
Your faith is a precious gift from God. It gives you access to His kingdom. Don’t expose it unnecessarily to attack. Protect it. Don’t drop your shield. Learn the ways to hold your shield against satanic attack.

God loves you.

 

[donsnow]

I find it very disturbing that you can accuse another Catholic of seeming “to spout atheist and skeptic beliefs” simply because he is investigating the meaning of Scripture…

My apologies for disturbing you. It couldn’t be helped. Because when we investigate the meaning of scripture, we need to come to the Church and her teachings for that interpretation, not go to atheists.
The words he said are words by atheists to pry us from the Faith and to weaken our personal faith. I write to show you your need to recognize the danger, and avoid it. When you don’t recognize the danger, you needlessly expose yourself and your faith to destruction.
It’s sad you didn’t see that, tonyrey.

God loves you,
Don

 

[tonyrey]

My apologies for disturbing you. It couldn’t be helped. Because when we investigate the meaning of scripture, we need to come to the Church and her teachings for that interpretation, not go to atheists.
The words he said are words by atheists to pry us from the Faith and to weaken our personal faith. I write to show you your need to recognize the danger, and avoid it. When you don’t recognize the danger, you needlessly expose yourself and your faith to destruction.
It’s sad you didn’t see that, tonyrey.

God loves you,
Don

What are the words he said that “pry us from the Faith” and “weaken our personal faith”?

This is a Philosophy Forum which exists for the purpose of clarifying our beliefs and refuting the arguments of atheists. We cannot do that if we are afraid to examine, expose and destroy their objections - not our faith. St Justin, one of the early Christian martyrs, should be our model with his Apologies and Dialogue with the Jew Tryphon…

 

[tonyrey]

The God of the OT is interpreted through human beings. The God of the NT spoke for Himself.

Take the OT as important anthropological insight into Salvation History. Take the NT as the Gospel Truth.

Welcome to the forum! Wise words…

 

[Ender]

Why would God give us an intellect if we were not to use it. Is faith so fragile that it can’t be challenged? (I.E listening to Atheist attacks.) If it can’t stand up to critique where is it’s strength?

Good point.*

“Both the light of reason and the light of faith come from God … hence there can be no contradiction between them (Aquinas). … Faith therefore has no fear of reason, but seeks it out and has trust in it.”* (Fides et Ratio, 43)
*
“To believe is nothing other than to think with assent … Believers are also thinkers: in believing, they think and in thinking, they believe … If faith does not think it is nothing.”* (FR 79)

It is inadequate to respond to a critic’s challenge by dismissing his argument. It doesn’t matter if the charge comes from an atheist trying to destroy someone’s faith or not: either his argument has merit or it doesn’t, and if it a valid question then it requires a valid answer.

Ender

 

[Della]

The God of the OT is interpreted through human beings. The God of the NT spoke for Himself.

Take the OT as important anthropological insight into Salvation History. Take the NT as the Gospel Truth.

This is simply not the case. The NT wasn’t written by Jesus, but by his Apostles and their disciples. Both are the word of God and tell us the absolute truth about God. This kind of thinking has crept into the Church through people’s lack of faith, not through any real understanding of God and his revelation of himself to man. Why are some of us insisting on putting forward such doubts as kind of panacea for those things some simply don’t “get”. Some of us don’t “get” it because some are not seeing with the mind of God but with the mind of fallen, blind and arrogant man (not accusing anyone here of anything except of being influenced by such men).

Jesus himself said that the time would come when he wondered if there would be any faith left on the Earth. He clearly saw the times in which we live that negates faith in God by attacking his words and his actions. How many times do we have to say it? We belong to God not he to us in that he made us not us him. He can do whatever he pleases with us and his judgments are proper and true. It is man who is the liar and the falsifier of truth, not God. The Bible is entirely trustworthy. Man’s ideas about it are not. This is vitally important as the enemy of Christ and his Church stirs up more and more opposition. Who are we going to believe? God or man?