Stuck Again (I really am Romantically Clueless!)

[chevalier]

Update!

We went out for a drink and some food after work today and had a good natter about life. Now he’s less nervous and over eager to pour out the compliments, he’s almost like the man I thought I knew before he decided he was in lurrrve! I actually found myself looking at him and thinking ‘yeah - he’s lovely - this could work ’ (BTW - no, it wasn’t beer goggles because I’m virtually T-total)

I believe usucaption just might be starting to run.

Then he went and spoiled it again by going on about how much more experience of life I have and how I’ve learned so much…It’s just bringing it home to me that the dynamic is all wrong. One minute I feel like a potential girlfriend and the next, more like a big sister If he was even 5 years older and wasn’t so seemingly in awe, I’d not hesitate to give it a go, because it’s the too eager to please thing that I is a real passion-killer.

Well, to tell you something, I think it will always be big sister, even if you two actually marry. The age difference and the difference in experience will not disappear and possibly neither will the ingrained respect for an almost half a generation older person that he has (matter of upbringing, I guess).

You’d be hard-pressed to find a more wonderful person and friend. I told him at the very start, when he told me how he felt, that above all, I valued our friendship and I was not prepared to do anything that might compromise that. When we’re just hanging out together and doing stuff we enjoy, I totally forget he’s 9 years younger and he forgets I’m (allegedly) a bit scary - and it’s so nice. My gut feeling is still that he’s a Mr. Nearly Right and as his friend, my duty as a good friend is to keep listening, keep talking and treat him with respect.

Yes, that’s correct (bolded a part for easier reference), although it doesn’t necessarily mean becoming his girlfriend to be fiancée to be wife. You may end up finding out that it’s your duty, in a sense, to get the attraction out of his head.

 

[Rose71]

I can think of one way to ensure the attraction on his part is diminished…is it too late to give up eyebrow tweezers for Lent?

 

[Rose71]

Thanks for the thoughts, TRJ & Chev!

I think it’s a different dynamic when the man is more highly qualified / career-driven than the woman (no matter what all the equal-rights brigade say) anyway. I know my friend is very intelligent; he just left school at 16, but I know a few of his family, and I think they are already a bit wary of me, which is really sad. They seem to regard educated women who have ‘dodged’ marriage for so long and can support themselves as a bit odd - almost ‘what’s wrong with her? What was she doing single at 40…must be one of those selfish career types!’ Of course, the truth is a combination of living and working in an environment where meeting anyone is difficult / being terribly upset by past experiences / being a Catholic, which rules out anyone who thinks buying a few nice meals, flossing his teeth and remembering the deodorant means he’s a dead cert to get his leg over

I’m just quite sad, because there’s so much that’s ‘right’ with this one (and the more time I spend with him, the more attractive he seems because he’s not as nervous) and once again, I’m going to have to face all those ‘you’re too fussy!’ accusations when I let him go and all the ‘no such thing as a perfect man’ talks :yawn:

 

[Elisabeth51]

Good points are that he’s Catholic; never been married before; we share a lot of interests and I know his family and they are a friendly and decent bunch. I love him to bits … as a friend, but he’s 9 years younger than me and I see him as almost a lovely younger brother or cousin

I’m sorry if I sound quite brutal, but I am being brutally honest. I would give it all up in a heartbeat if I could find a man I was truly confident in. I joke that when I find Mr. Right, I willl sleep for a week, just because I can!

I am not one to believe that age should be a qualification for a relationship or not—I know people who have fantastic marriages who are 15, 20, even 30 years apart in age. Two people can be the same age and have vastly different experiences. Personally, my generation is 20 years older than me—and that is who I have always hung out with, been friends with, done things with and can relate. I tried people my age, but inevitably found myself talking to their parents. They were not “old” they were the age of my sisters and brothers. (I do have a couple of friends my age, but their maturity is far beyond most others our age, but the friends that are my closest are 20 and 30 years older than I am) I would never meet someone that I had everything in common with and loved being with, felt they were my other half and then say “oh, sorry, you’re not the right age.”

That being said, I do think you have to feel something—even if you have everything in common, there has to be some kind of something, good desire, or why would you want to be with the person? I’ve never dated because I have not (until recently) met anyone that I felt more than sisterly towards. I’m not interested in even trying someone that I feel like a sister towards, we can be friends, but nothing more. A relationship can’t be based on feelings alone, obviously, but you would need to feel something and I don’t think that something is sister/brother.

Most of the age differences I know are older men, but my uncle was married to a woman 10 years older (they are both deceased now), they met when he was 17, but he was mature for his age and friendship grew into a permanent relationship and a good and loving marriage. They died within weeks of each other–and he went first, despite being younger!

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I can think of one way to ensure the attraction on his part is diminished…is it too late to give up eyebrow tweezers for Lent?

:bigyikes: Uni-brow?

LOL

 

[chevalier]

I can think of one way to ensure the attraction on his part is diminished…is it too late to give up eyebrow tweezers for Lent?

You’d need really bushy eyebrows for that effect to be guaranteed. I usually find normal eyebrows more attractive than plucked ones and I’m one aesthetically picky guy (son of a painter).

Thanks for the thoughts, TRJ & Chev!

I think it’s a different dynamic when the man is more highly qualified / career-driven than the woman (no matter what all the equal-rights brigade say) anyway. I know my friend is very intelligent; he just left school at 16, but I know a few of his family, and I think they are already a bit wary of me, which is really sad. They seem to regard educated women who have ‘dodged’ marriage for so long and can support themselves as a bit odd - almost ‘what’s wrong with her? What was she doing single at 40…must be one of those selfish career types!’ Of course, the truth is a combination of living and working in an environment where meeting anyone is difficult / being terribly upset by past experiences / being a Catholic, which rules out anyone who thinks buying a few nice meals, flossing his teeth and remembering the deodorant means he’s a dead cert to get his leg over

I’m just quite sad, because there’s so much that’s ‘right’ with this one (and the more time I spend with him, the more attractive he seems because he’s not as nervous) and once again, I’m going to have to face all those ‘you’re too fussy!’ accusations when I let him go and all the ‘no such thing as a perfect man’ talks :yawn:

Accusations you can live with, given how self-sufficient and established you are. As you know better than I do, avoidance of accusations would be a very bad motivator for considering marriage at all or with someone specific.

As for giving up what seems so great and almost perfect, sometimes you have to. What if you discovered that, in your experience, your friend who seems to be so taken with you in reality needs a different type of woman and would not be happy with you? You’d call it all off in a heartbeat or at least sit him down and end it for his own sake. So you may need to give up this opportunity as well.

I’d tell you also not to despair of future opportunities but I just might lack the nerve (after all, I’m 29 myself, possibly younger than he is actually, so what do I know). This said, always trust God. But get your intel and don’t lose the master key to the ammo boxes.

 

[Rose71]

yep! mono-brows are sooo now dahling Opinions on the age difference are so varied. All my friends (the ones who know I’m immature / amazingly well preserved for my age) think its no big deal at all. In fact, most of them think I’ve done really well for myself. I agree with TRJ though and with Chev (you are 2 years younger than him BTW!) it’s not an issue of pure numbers, but of experience and expectations. The more I meet his family and hear about his life, the more I’d love him to meet someone just like I was 10 years ago: but that person has gone for good and the 40 year old me feels like a very different person. I’m happier, but more independant and more aware of what I can achieve and less worried about (not worried at all!) about ‘needing’ to be married or even dating anyone. Here comes the broken record bit… He is sooooo lovely! He’s possibly the nicest, most easy to get along with and genuinely thoughtful and caring man I’ve ever had the pleasure of spending time with. That’s why I HAVE to do the right thing by him

 

[chevalier]

yep! mono-brows are sooo now dahling Opinions on the age difference are so varied. All my friends (the ones who know I’m immature / amazingly well preserved for my age) think its no big deal at all. In fact, most of them think I’ve done really well for myself. I agree with TRJ though and with Chev (you are 2 years younger than him BTW!) it’s not an issue of pure numbers, but of experience and expectations. The more I meet his family and hear about his life, the more I’d love him to meet someone just like I was 10 years ago: but that person has gone for good and the 40 year old me feels like a very different person. I’m happier, but more independant and more aware of what I can achieve and less worried about (not worried at all!) about ‘needing’ to be married or even dating anyone. Here comes the broken record bit… He is sooooo lovely! He’s possibly the nicest, most easy to get along with and genuinely thoughtful and caring man I’ve ever had the pleasure of spending time with. That’s why I HAVE to do the right thing by him

Whatever is the right thing (and I honestly don’t know), it seems you’ve arrived at the point that you need to do it.

This is actually an interesting subject… do we put more emphasis on what we think is good for people or do we allow them to decide for themselves and incur the consequences?

As for the 10 years ago, hah, I know what you’re writing about. I had that moment when I was basically ruling out long acquaintances or friends one by one, as to who it might have been. (At that point in my life, I had a strong romantic bias towards friends.) They did eventually run out. Back around age 18 and a bit more, I was already aware of the time passing and certain problems associated with the relationship area, I was basically worried about fruitlessly passing that stage in my life which was very special. I probably was wrong but anyway. The stages that came later were similar. Right now I’ve made one step closer to the realisation that heck, I’m almost 30. And in many ways far from where a normal person should be at that age. There’s some missing of the old time, guess I have little time for living in the future and there doesn’t remain that much for the present, although it’s not as bad as it sounds. Don’t live in the past.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

yep! mono-brows are sooo now dahling Opinions on the age difference are so varied. All my friends (the ones who know I’m immature / amazingly well preserved for my age) think its no big deal at all. In fact, most of them think I’ve done really well for myself. I agree with TRJ though and with Chev (you are 2 years younger than him BTW!) it’s not an issue of pure numbers, but of experience and expectations. The more I meet his family and hear about his life, the more I’d love him to meet someone just like I was 10 years ago: but that person has gone for good and the 40 year old me feels like a very different person. I’m happier, but more independant and more aware of what I can achieve and less worried about (not worried at all!) about ‘needing’ to be married or even dating anyone. Here comes the broken record bit… He is sooooo lovely! He’s possibly the nicest, most easy to get along with and genuinely thoughtful and caring man I’ve ever had the pleasure of spending time with. That’s why I HAVE to do the right thing by him

Yeah, you really DO sound like his loving older sis.

 

[ThyKingdomCome]

I don’t have any advice about the guy, but some quotes about your career, from the original post, stood out to me that I’d like to address.

We are similar age, and I think that I escaped that line of thinking that you were brought up with, maybe because my mom was a SAHM, and was very comfortable in that role. I always looked up to the role of a SAHM, and it never occurred to me that women might have an issue with not making “their own” money, or “not being independent” or whatever the other objections have been. I am now a stay-at-home-homeschooling mom, and if my kids were in school, I’d still stay at home. So you know these opinions are coming from a different place than those who taught you the “feminist ideals”…

(I rearranged the order of your statements)

I know I’d give up my career for the right man, but right now, my brain is firmly in ‘survival’ mode. I was brought up like many women my age, to work hard. It’s not about money (I’, not in the most lucrative profession) but about using your brains and respecting yourself. We’ve been lead to believe that women who are unable to support themselves and have to resort to finding a man to enable them to have a roof over their heads are weak and desperate and not much better than prostitutes. Shocking, when I type it - and actually not nice at all - but that’s the minset we’ve been programmed to have: work hard, keep your knickers on and your options open

Why would you need to give up your career for a man? You said you have time for friends, so you must not be completely consumed by your career. While it is true that you should love your husband more than you love your job, that doesn’t mean you can’t be devoted to you career. And why would you need to depend on a husband for money or a home? Now if you have children, that is another story - because young children have a stronger NEED for more of your time. And it’s not wrong to plan for that, rather than to suddenly find yourself pregnant and feeling stuck between a rock and a hard place. But you didn’t mention children, you mentioned a man, who presumably, will have a job of his own, and interests of his own.

Even if this man isn’t ‘the one’ I know I have to break out of that mindset somehow! But if I take my foot of the accelerator and let things slip at work or looking after my home, I am sunk! I have no ‘Plan B’; there is no second income coming in. I really don’t feel I can afford the emotional upheaval that comes with a relationship.

Again, why would you let your job or home slip because of a relationship? Why would you need a Plan B? As a non-feminist, SAHM, let me tell you, it is perfectly ok to work hard at your career and take care of your home, even if you have a man in your life. Sure you shouldn’t be “married” to your career…but I’m guessing that if you have time for friends, you probably have what it takes to have a romantic relationship too. Just pick a guy who is comfortable with who you are.

 

[Rose71]

That’s an interesting take! I’m definitely not a feminist and my mum was a stay at home mum. She gave up her career when she married and focussed on making a happy and supportive home for my father and us children. She did return to work for a few years once we were a bit older, to help with school fees. However, she was 34 when she married, which was regarded as very late back then! (amazing how times change, isn’t it?) I don’t actually have any ‘feminist ideals’ from my family. My mother taught me to use the talents God has given me and work hard. Also, being caring parents, I was taught to respect my body and other people - which combined, resulted in the strong message “Keep away from boys! They could seriously ruin your education!” What my parents never anticipated, being quite ‘old’ parents themselves and having grown up in large, Catholic communities, where life revolved round the Church and there were plenty of opportunities to meet prospective spouses who shared the same values…was that the world as they knew it was about to turn upside down. By the time I was 20 years old, or so, it was seen by ‘society’ to be okay to live together outside marriage and positively the norm to have sexual relations outside marriage. I went out into a very secular world with not much idea - to put it mildly! I felt constantly torn between honouring my parents’ ideals and fitting in Of course, mum and dad’s hopes for me would be that I did my degree, worked for a few years and then met a dependable, Catholic man and quite work to have babies Honestly - that’s just how I’d have liked it too. Something I have never, ever been comfortable with and that I have been brought up to view as morally reprehensible, is to marry for the primary motive of financial security and social standing. I want to go into a relationship with self-respect and I want to bring something to the party, as it were. That is not to say that if I met the right man, I would give up my career - of course I would! I want a man who loves me because of who I am and my work ethic and energy are part of that. I’d be delighted to switch that drive to being a home-maker, but I am never going to be someone who devotes her energy to hunting down a man. I devote my energy to making sure I make the best of my life. The reality is in today’s financial climate that I do need to keep working hard to afford to live alone! I have chosen to live close to my parents, who are now elderly, so that means I have a pretty big mortgage, compared to my income (I work in a sector that demands high qualifications and lots of comitment - but comparatively tiny wages!) (So much for being money-motivated - I’m definitely NOT that!) On top of that, there is the house to keep clean and tidy and I like to cook proper meals, whether I have company or not. At heart, I am just as much a home-maker as a ‘worker’ (which is nothing new - my heroine is Isabella of Castille:thumbsup I want a man who respects and admires the fact that I do try really hard at everything I do. I can’t believe anyone thought I was a splutters to get word out feminist I’m just typical of many of the ‘good Catholic girls’ who are now approaching middle age and totally stuck between 2 cultures.

 

[Rose71]

Just out of interest, Thy Kingdom Come: supposing you hadn’t met your DH, or any man for that matter who was willing to pursue a chaste courtship, leave sex until after marriage, refrain from ABC and accept that your child’s life would take precedence over yours should that awful situation arise…

How would you handle it?

Younger Man and I had a great time last night. We’re still friends and still talking things through. He’s still mad-keen though and he’s definitely starting to grow on me!!!

Chev’s observation is really good (BTW - thanks for just going and proving that younger men can be charming, articulate and challenging it’s really not helping )
This is about whether we ought to be doing what we think is right for other people, or just accepting that we aren’t responsible for their decision-making.

I’d love for everything to work out - but I’m just asking him for time at the moment and gving us both some space to think. I’ve never known anyone so eager He’s known me as a friend for nearly 3 years, so he should know what he’d be letting himself in for.

Gotta get back to work now - thanks again everyone for all their help

 

[ThyKingdomCome]

Our upbringing probably wasn’t too different then. My mother got married at 30, also pretty old. Actually, my dad is 5 years younger than her. The larger the age difference, the more I think it is important for the people in question, particularly the younger one, to be realistic about the aging process and how they will be participating in that process earlier than expected. A 25 year old woman marrying a 55 year old man needs to have realistically considered the likelihood of becoming a caregiver at a reasonably young age, being widowed young, etc. With only a 9 year difference, that’s not an issue - but fertility might be. So many men don’t seem to think ahead in their lives in terms of having children that I would feel the need to harp on that point a bit and make sure expectations, dreams, and Plan B’s are discussed before we got too attached.

Oh, I didn’t mean to call you a feminist, but you have been fighting the influence of feminists that are terrified of “losing themselves” to men.

I know what you mean about being stuck between two cultures. I did manage to escape it for the most part, but I know enough people who did not, that I get very upset about the culture that did that to our generation. They really messed with a lot of heads big time, and the parents were either part of it, or were too naive and to prepare us kids to fight against it.

Just out of interest, Thy Kingdom Come: supposing you hadn’t met your DH, or any man for that matter who was willing to pursue a chaste courtship, leave sex until after marriage, refrain from ABC and accept that your child’s life would take precedence over yours should that awful situation arise…

How would you handle it?

Can you clarify for me, what you mean by “it” ? (not to be Clintonesque or anything) How would I handle what?

 

[Rose71]

No problem!

I mean, if you found yourself single and at an age when most of your contemporaries were either married or had partners of some description and you knew you had to work X number of hours a day (both career and domestic) how would you square this with the fact that deep down, you really wanted to be a home-maker and a wife?

My friend is now aware that he has to back off a bit and give me some breathing space. I’ve explained again that all I can offer is friendship and he admitted that has been putting too much pressure on me. He also acknowledged that I’ve been straight with him from the start and done nothing to mislead him - but he says he thinks he ought to be open with me and say what he feels too. (which I can really respect)

I have to admit to feeling almost resentful towards the Church and my upbringing, because to me, I’ve tried so hard to follow the rules and I was brought up to be a total people-pleaser, which has left me feeling responsible for everyone’s happiness around me. That’s why I do well at work (because I’m rubbish at saying ‘no’ and I will fight tooth and nail for my clients and colleagues, but never have the bottle to stand up for myself) Everyone seems to think I am some hard, driven, super-bright go-getter when the reality is I’m a bit of a wimp I do things under a sense of obligation because I’m scared of hurting other people’s feelings!

One of the things that really worries me about my friend is that he seems to have put me on a pedestal and I don’t like pedestals!!! I’m used to believing that you get nowhere without hard work, so a pleasant, normal, if slightly besotted man taking an interest without me having to bust a gut seems, well, a bit odd

Maybe I’m using the whole age-difference as a big excuse here? I don’t know

(told you I was clueless! However, I suspect I’m not the only woman of my generation who is!)

 

[ThyKingdomCome]

No problem!

I mean, if you found yourself single and at an age when most of your contemporaries were either married or had partners of some description and you knew you had to work X number of hours a day (both career and domestic) how would you square this with the fact that deep down, you really wanted to be a home-maker and a wife?

The way I have always looked at it, is no matter what your age, if you know that something is your goal, then go out and get it. Once I believed that marriage was my vocation, it was a priority in my life. I didn’t go out looking for a husband, but I think I would have had he not come along fairly quickly. So I guess if I were in your shoes, and I really felt that my vocation is to get married, I would make it a priority in my life. I would see it as a social thing and would do my best to get involved with social situations in which I could meet other like minded people. Church stuff makes the most sense to me. So you said that you have an active social life - I would look at my social life and see if it was providing me opportunities to meet the right kind of man, or if it was keeping me too busy to seek one. Are you socializing with your friends while you volunteer for church, or are you hanging out at each others’ houses, and going out to dinner? It would probably be the social scene that would change the most at first - not the job situation.

I would also take it to prayer, and try to differentiate between what I want and what my vocation is. Have I not found a husband because God’s will for me is to be single, and to be devoted to Him through my career and social connections? Or have I ignored His will for a long time, and I need to make a change in how I live? Not because changing something about my life will magically bring me a husband, but because changing something in my life will make me conform better to God’s will for me?

I have to admit to feeling almost resentful towards the Church and my upbringing, because to me, I’ve tried so hard to follow the rules and I was brought up to be a total people-pleaser, which has left me feeling responsible for everyone’s happiness around me. That’s why I do well at work (because I’m rubbish at saying ‘no’ and I will fight tooth and nail for my clients and colleagues, but never have the bottle to stand up for myself) Everyone seems to think I am some hard, driven, super-bright go-getter when the reality is I’m a bit of a wimp I do things under a sense of obligation because I’m scared of hurting other people’s feelings!

One of the things that really worries me about my friend is that he seems to have put me on a pedestal and I don’t like pedestals!!! I’m used to believing that you get nowhere without hard work, so a pleasant, normal, if slightly besotted man taking an interest without me having to bust a gut seems, well, a bit odd

Maybe I’m using the whole age-difference as a big excuse here? I don’t know

(told you I was clueless! However, I suspect I’m not the only woman of my generation who is!)

It is interesting that you describe yourself as a “wimpy people pleaser” and then shortly after that describe your friend’s admiration for you as misplaced. Is it possible that you are not letting yourself take credit where credit is due? You could be right - he could be setting you up on a pedestal. But is it also possible that you are not comfortable being admired? Consider this - most guys interested in you romantically, are going to be impressed by you - will you be able to take that compliment, or are you one to always say, “no, no, you must be wrong, I’m not really that great.” ? Just a thought which may or may not be on the mark.

 

[Rose71]

You know, you are actually pretty spot on with your observations! (and thank you so much for putting together such a thoughtful and non-preachy reply)

I know exactly what you mean about looking at my current social life and whether its condusive to meeting anyone suitable…or actually keeping me too busy to put myself on the line and risk getting hurt.

Sadly, the church I go to doesn’t exactly welcome single people. It’s the church I attended as a child and now I’m back in the area, I go with my family. The locals have largely changed from ‘proper’ local country people to a lot of wealthy commuters, all married with families. I have tried talking to a few of the women my own age or thereabouts (you never know - they could have brothers or friends who are RC and single!)

A problem that I haven’t mentioned but I’m sure (I know!) is relevant, is that I attend Mass with my parents, brother and my borther’s 7 year old son. I won’t bore everyone too much with the detail, but my brother is married to a woman 7 years older than him and she is apparently extremely manipulative, lazy and selfish, to the extent that their son has missed out on any kind of early socialisation and has real behavioural problems at his school (the local Church one) and isn’t even clothed properly. He will come to Mass with wet hair, clothes on back to front, shoes falling apart etc., and it is up to me to take him into Little Church and sit with him to make sure he doesn’t do anything too daft! The boys from his class in school deliberately egg him on to act daft and then ostracize him. I have seen it happen and it really breaks my heart.

I take him out when I can and we just work our way through the screams and the randon behaviour and I have to take him as he is handed over to me - so if he’s dressed in filthy clothes, I have to put up with it. I did start buying him nice clothes to keep here, but he grows so fast!

I’ve seen how marriage has turned my brother from a happy, lively and friendly person into a washed out, quiet and miserable shaddow. In my head, I keep thinking, “if he can get it so wrong - what chance have I?” I also want to give any man who crosses my path the chance to make a purely objective decision about whether we have a future together (i.e. by getting to know me without make-up, without flirting and enjoying the activities I enjoy - as oppose to flashing a smile and dropping my knickers like she did!)

As you can possibly tell rolleyes I have been very progranmmed to believe that it’s up to the women to keep the men happy and on the straight and narrow. I know deep down, my brother was a fool for falling for her without thinking with his brain! However, I still blame her, for seducing him and allowing him to become infatuated.

For this reason and because I’ve been left to an extent ‘holding the baby’ I am determined to do the right thing by men and never, ever behave like a sponger…I possibly take it a bit far!!! I really want to be loved just for being me and I want to do the same to someone in return. I’m afraid almost of really nice men, because I’m afraid of turning into a manipulative shrew like S-i-L and making a man’s life a misery, because I can’t help feeling if I allow any man to get too attached without getting to know the ‘real me’ - I will be responsible for failing to allow him to make an objective decision.

That’s something else I was brought up with - men are never to blame! It’s the woman’s duty to control the pressure as it were - and not allow the man to get ‘carried away’ - because if he does - it’s my fault

I know that’s rubbish deep down, but it’s been so drilled into me - along with the fact that you should allways put others first, I find it so hard to think any different.

 

[chevalier]

My friend is now aware that he has to back off a bit and give me some breathing space. I’ve explained again that all I can offer is friendship and he admitted that has been putting too much pressure on me. He also acknowledged that I’ve been straight with him from the start and done nothing to mislead him - but he says he thinks he ought to be open with me and say what he feels too. (which I can really respect)

He will acknowledge everything you want him to and don’t ask me how I know.

One of the things that really worries me about my friend is that he seems to have put me on a pedestal and I don’t like pedestals!!! I’m used to believing that you get nowhere without hard work, so a pleasant, normal, if slightly besotted man taking an interest without me having to bust a gut seems, well, a bit odd

You probably don’t realise how many keywords (anchors) you use. “Breathing space”, “pedestal”, my subconscious grins widely the instant I see one of those.

You can’t really require a person who is obviously taken with you (respects you greatly, admires you etc.) to stop doing that. You can reciprocate if there is a good enough reason to do so or you can try and show your weak or even bad sides (rather describe them than show them in action but you see what I mean).

As for the pedestal, you must have forgotten the men of the generation before you. Since you’ve done nothing to lose the quality of a lady (on the contrary, you seem to have added some personal merit on top of that), you’ve got to put up with a whole load of squiring and you have no right to complain. I’m sorry but that’s just how it is.

(told you I was clueless! However, I suspect I’m not the only woman of my generation who is!)

As a woman you combine cunning and cluelesness by design. It says so in the specification except I’ve misplaced it again, so I can’t provide the exact reference.

 

[ThyKingdomCome]

Sadly, the church I go to doesn’t exactly welcome single people. It’s the church I attended as a child and now I’m back in the area, I go with my family. The locals have largely changed from ‘proper’ local country people to a lot of wealthy commuters, all married with families. I have tried talking to a few of the women my own age or thereabouts (you never know - they could have brothers or friends who are RC and single!)

A problem that I haven’t mentioned but I’m sure (I know!) is relevant, is that I attend Mass with my parents, brother and my borther’s 7 year old son. I won’t bore everyone too much with the detail, but my brother is married to a woman 7 years older than him and she is apparently extremely manipulative, lazy and selfish, to the extent that their son has missed out on any kind of early socialisation and has real behavioural problems at his school (the local Church one) and isn’t even clothed properly. He will come to Mass with wet hair, clothes on back to front, shoes falling apart etc., and it is up to me to take him into Little Church and sit with him to make sure he doesn’t do anything too daft! The boys from his class in school deliberately egg him on to act daft and then ostracize him. I have seen it happen and it really breaks my heart.

I take him out when I can and we just work our way through the screams and the randon behaviour and I have to take him as he is handed over to me - so if he’s dressed in filthy clothes, I have to put up with it. I did start buying him nice clothes to keep here, but he grows so fast!

Maybe I’m off base, but it is curious that going to “Little Church” with your nephew is your responsibility and not your brothers. It may very well be that you are where God wants you. But it sounds like without you, there would be 3 adults to help take care of that one child, and maybe you’d be better off finding a parish community that is a better fit for you. Or maybe you can stay at that parish, and get involved in their volunteer activities? My first impression is that your “can’t say no” way of thinking is in your personal life as much as your work life, and that while it is a wonderful thing to be a stable presence in your nephew’s life, I wonder if you are neglecting your own life so you can take care of your family? In 20 years, are you going to look back at this time and thank God that you stayed so close to your family and helped your brother at Church, etc… Or in 20 years, are you going to be resentful that you were so consumed with making up for your brother’s mistakes that you never got a chance to seek your own happiness? I don’t know which it is, and I would hate to counsel someone to not help a child in need. But maybe it’s a question to ask yourself and maybe there is a middle ground?

As you can possibly tell rolleyes I have been very progranmmed to believe that it’s up to the women to keep the men happy and on the straight and narrow. I know deep down, my brother was a fool for falling for her without thinking with his brain! However, I still blame her, for seducing him and allowing him to become infatuated.

Take it a step further - do you consider yourself responsible for fixing things for him now that this other woman messed things up? Are you becoming a martyr for your family? Attending to their needs with no regard for your own?

From a very outside - could totally be wrong - perspective, it seems to me that you are haunted by the “ghosts” of the wrong things you’ve been taught / your family’s problems. It sounds like you are challenging the assumptions that you have had for so long, but like you said, they’ve been drilled into you and I wonder if you have been somewhat paralyzed by your fears. Deep down you want to be married, but deep down you are afraid of marriage. How do you reconcile the two? I wish I had the answer for you. I have some of my own “family issues” that affect me, and I really have to look at myself and my ways of thinking as though I am an outsider. “What would a therapist say to me?” is a question I’ve asked myself many times. Or I will actually ask an outsider for perspective, which I guess is what you are doing now. Keep it up though, because whether or not you end up getting married, you deserve to have a healthy perspective on all of the fun stuff you’ve been drilled with.

 

[chevalier]

For this reason and because I’ve been left to an extent ‘holding the baby’ I am determined to do the right thing by men and never, ever behave like a sponger…I possibly take it a bit far!!! I really want to be loved just for being me and I want to do the same to someone in return. I’m afraid almost of really nice men, because I’m afraid of turning into a manipulative shrew like S-i-L and making a man’s life a misery, because I can’t help feeling if I allow any man to get too attached without getting to know the ‘real me’ - I will be responsible for failing to allow him to make an objective decision.

That’s probably a reasonable feeling. All of us with a personality need to make sure the poor interested souls know what they’re getting into.

Actually, according to one garden science theory some women actually put a guy through a lot of pain (sometimes including objectively immoral acts rather than simply putting some hurting on him) just to see if he can live with it. That’s the psychotic extreme. A normal person would just not make a secret of having a couple of shortcomings or even vices that the other person must know about. For example my dating website profiles clearly list computer games and other such that women hate. At some you’ve got to let him make his decision though. Maybe he can actually live with your moods or habits.

That’s something else I was brought up with - men are never to blame! It’s the woman’s duty to control the pressure as it were - and not allow the man to get ‘carried away’ - because if he does - it’s my fault

Actually, men are to blame by default when there’s male-to-female dispute (and let’s not even broach the subject of a man conveying his lack of romantic interest to a woman. Or at least there’s a subjective feeling to match the kind that you have.

Both sexes are responsible for feelings they foster in themselves and awaken in others.

I know that’s rubbish deep down, but it’s been so drilled into me - along with the fact that you should allways put others first, I find it so hard to think any different.

It’s just that modern people don’t get it. Find someone old-fashioned. At least you don’t have to look for one in the twenty-something generation.

 

[Rose71]

You guys have no idea how much you are helping me! I suppose I’ve known for a while that I’m hiding behind my family’s problems to an extent; but I also know that I’m a bit of a compulsive people-pleaser.

My friend dropped by last night again and we had another long talk. His mother died when he was 16 and since then, he dropped out of education and threw himself into working for his father and in his own words, has just kept his head down ever since.

It’s strange how much we have in common, because a combination of work, family pressure and knock-backs have meant I’ve done the same for about 9 or 10 years too. We both talked about how we’d more or less started to believe that we were ‘supposed’ to be by ourselves, because that seemed to be the default expectation of everyone around us

He’s found other women attractive and wanted to ask them out before, but never plucked up the courage. Apparently, what finally triggered him to say something to me, was when we went as a group of 3 friends to a dinner a few weeks ago. the 3rd member of the party was a divorced man that we are both really close friends with, who is also an alcoholic eek:I’m painting a great picture of England here, aren’t I?!!! It’s really not that bad!)

The alcoholic is a really good friend of mine and we went on a grand total of 2 dates before I realised he was divorced i.e. married and having to break it off would have really upset me, were it not for the fact that around the same time, it began to dawn on me how much he drank! We’ve stayed friends and tend to travel to shoots together - but he knows exactly where he stands and to his credit, will quickly squash any rumours by saying quite bluntly that he has no chance unless he gets and annulment and gives up the drink (neither of which he is prepared to do)

Anyway, predictably, Divorced Man got hammered and decided it would be a good idea to try to crack onto a lady who has 2 children from a failed relationship (they weren’t marrried) He didn’t get anywhere and I’m well past caring about his antics - but having lost 2 cousins and with one cousin making an excellent job of killing himself at the moment - it does really anger me that anyone can treat themselves in this way.

Younger Man says it was Divorced Man’s behaviour that tipped him over the edge, because he felt so bad for me and decided I deserved so much better (him )

When we talked last night, he admitted that now he’d actually let the genie out of the bottle, so to speak, he’d begun to question so much about his own life. For example, he realised he’d never travelled and apart from work and shooting, had no idea at all what kind of holidays he liked, or what his opinions and interests were: he said he looked accross at his dad and realised he was just becoming a carbon copy!

We’re still in agreement that having kept ourselves under wraps for so long and just not been out and about enough, that we’re going to plan some proper trips out over the summer (he’s never been to the theatre and I love it, but never have anyone to go with) doing all the stuff we never get to do because we’ve nobody to do it with. We’re all putting our friendship and one another first and if it goes nowhere romantically, we’re still friends.

I know a lot of people think that’s impossible - but they don’t know either of us and how much practice we’ve both had at controlling our emotions over the years.

Thanks for reading