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Bookcat
Guest
NFP for is for help in conceiving and when one has a serious reason…it can be used to avoid. Only couples who have serious reasons are to use it to avoid. It is not to be “the norm”.
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Bookcat
Guest
So you and likely your wife will then be in your 30’s when you would seek to have children. Such is just asking for infertility problems…
It is also not good for the marriage. What is good is to have children sooner than later. Again …get the book “Covenanted Happiness” …such will be a big help.
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Allegra
Guest
My mother always says that if she’d waited until they had enough money none of us would be here.
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Bookcat
Guest
And brothers and/or sisters are also important…for any children who would be born…
Such is providing family for your family…
etc
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Bookcat
Guest
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MAV0524
Guest
The original post talked about delaying pregnancy for a year or two or so. Either way it will probably late 20’s to early 30’s when I marry. Of course, my wife could be younger. Fertility is an issue, and I wouldn’t likely want to delay pregnancy. I would probably be anxious for a baby and would consider NFP at the start of marriage to be kind of lame. Sometimes life can be lame though.
I would like 4-6 kids though… at least 3 if God grants us the fertility. Perhaps more than 4-6 kids if God grants us the ability, finances, health, etc. Either way I doubt I’ll be able to afford 6 kids in my 20’s!
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Katie966
Guest
If you expect to pay off that much in student loans in seven years, you either have a degree in a fairly lucrative profession, don’t have many other expenses, or both. If this is the case, then you really don’t have to worry about this.It will probably take sevenish years. I understand what you are saying though. I just have combed through these forums and have seen little about college debt and marriage which surprised me considering the median debt load out there right now and the slow job market. There’s gotta be people out there in such a situation that can offer advice. I know a lot of people who marry with no money and lots of debt but many of them likely use contraception. They get married with no immediate plans for children. What are good Catholics to do who may not be able to afford them right away?
In case you haven’t noticed, I’m a worrier and a planner.
Many people spend up to 20 years paying off their loans. It’s a huge burden, and not something to take lightly of course, but you can stretch it out and still have a family. It’s good and thoughtful of you to be preparing for your future family, by wanting to be in a good position financially. Just don’t let it limit you so much- if you’re not even dating anyone right now, just do your best to find a good job and chip away at it. Find out what you can do to lower your interest rates, live frugally, and you can talk about NFP later, when you’re engaged and ready to be married. As other posters have pointed out, there are so many variables to consider that your question can’t possibly be answered now- especially because it’s not a decision you can make on your own.
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danserr
Guest
My wife and I are in a similar situation. Young, just married and with a comparable amount of student loan debt. So, we got married and started using NFP immediately. I’m not sure why so many people here seem to be so negative on that. This means we can both work and will help pay down the debt faster. The goal is to live frugally and get yourself in a position where you are making more than the minimum payments. I don’t like the idea of stretching them out more to get a lower monthly payment because then you could end up still paying student loans at the same time you are trying to get a mortgage on a house. And then what if you need a car loan too? (though car loans are often inadvisable)It will probably take sevenish years. I understand what you are saying though. I just have combed through these forums and have seen little about college debt and marriage which surprised me considering the median debt load out there right now and the slow job market. There’s gotta be people out there in such a situation that can offer advice. I know a lot of people who marry with no money and lots of debt but many of them likely use contraception. They get married with no immediate plans for children. What are good Catholics to do who may not be able to afford them right away?
In case you haven’t noticed, I’m a worrier and a planner.
NFP is allowed for serious reasons and having enough money to support a family is a serious reason, however, even if one starts using NFP immediately, one should have enough money that if one does end up pregnant, it’s not a total disaster and you can handle it. The other danger, of course, is not to let the period of postponing pregnancy drag on for too long, but hard to think that there is something wrong with using it for a reasonably short period of time to get more financially stable.
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PatriceA
Guest
This is still the best advice given in this thread.
Especially the last sentence, what ever happened to discerning to what God is calling you to do as a couple and trusting Him in ALL things, including your financial situation? Whenever it comes to any kind of financial situation, it seems people have a really hard time putting their faith into action and trusting God will provide.
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Bookcat
Guest
Compendium of the Catechism issued by Pope Benedict XVI
2399
The regulation of births, which is an aspect of responsible fatherhood and motherhood, is objectively morally acceptable when it is pursued by the spouses without external pressure; when it is practiced not out of selfishness but for serious reasons; and with methods that conform to the objective criteria of morality, that is, periodic continence and use of the infertile periods.
Every action - for example, direct sterilization or contraception - is intrinsically immoral which (either in anticipation of the conjugal act, in its accomplishment or in the development of its natural consequences) proposes, as an end or as a means, to hinder procreation.
(of course serious reasons can be varied…and do not need to be “extreme serious reasons” or “life or death” stuff…but they do need to be serious. They need to be judged so before God by the couple (perhaps with advice))
- When is it moral to regulate births?
2399
The regulation of births, which is an aspect of responsible fatherhood and motherhood, is objectively morally acceptable when it is pursued by the spouses without external pressure; when it is practiced not out of selfishness but for serious reasons; and with methods that conform to the objective criteria of morality, that is, periodic continence and use of the infertile periods.
- What are immoral means of birth control?
Every action - for example, direct sterilization or contraception - is intrinsically immoral which (either in anticipation of the conjugal act, in its accomplishment or in the development of its natural consequences) proposes, as an end or as a means, to hinder procreation.
(of course serious reasons can be varied…and do not need to be “extreme serious reasons” or “life or death” stuff…but they do need to be serious. They need to be judged so before God by the couple (perhaps with advice))
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Bookcat
Guest
“232. The family contributes to the social good in an eminent fashion through responsible motherhood and fatherhood, the spouses’ special participation in God’s work of creation[519]. The weight of this responsibility must not be used as a justification for being selfishly closed but must guide the decisions of the spouses in a generous acceptance of life. “In relation to physical, economic, psychological and social conditions, responsible parenthood is exercised both in the duly pondered and generous decision to have a large family, and in the decision, made for serious reasons and in respect of the moral law, to avoid for a time or even indeterminately a new birth”[520]. The motivations that should guide the couple in exercising responsible motherhood and fatherhood originate in the full recognition of their duties towards God, towards themselves, towards the family and towards society in a proper hierarchy of values.”
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/justpeace/documents/rc_pc_justpeace_doc_20060526_compendio-dott-soc_en.html
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/justpeace/documents/rc_pc_justpeace_doc_20060526_compendio-dott-soc_en.html
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MAV0524
Guest
It can be a very lucrative profession with 5-10 years experience. Starting salaries are about normal though. To pay it off in 7 years, I think I would have to pay about $700 a month (only $200 more than the minimum payment). I realize this is a little aggressive considering I do need to replace my car in the coming years but think it is a good goal.
One of my main concerns was if I married someone with a lot of student loans herself. Two minimum payments could be in the $1000-$1,500 range. A bit tough for one income. I realize this is speculative as people have said, but I recently got to know a woman that I liked who probably was going to have loans in the $70,000 range. (not planning on dating her… long distance and haven’t talked in a few months). It just made me think if I could even afford to date (and eventually marry) women with those loans. I’m not trying to sound materialistic. I’m just not a rich dude!
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Bookcat
Guest
Meditate on the Sermon on the Mount…such can be helpful …and seek to worry less.
This book and author too can be helfful: frjacquesphilippe.com/books/searching_forand_maintaining_peace.html
This can not be figured out now.
You are not there.
You do not get the grace for the future …in the present.
Just put your eyes in Faith on Jesus …and follow
This book and author too can be helfful: frjacquesphilippe.com/books/searching_forand_maintaining_peace.html
This can not be figured out now.
You are not there.
You do not get the grace for the future …in the present.
Just put your eyes in Faith on Jesus …and follow
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angelerulastiel
Guest
How about we make this no theoretical. I am a college student and my fiance just graduated. While he has a good job and I will (my degree is in a well paying job in high demand) we will still have about $50,000 in student debt when we get married (we’ll have been dating 6 years at our wedding). Do you think it is immoral to get married and use NFP for a couple years so we can get our finances under control so that we can provide for our children without becoming a burden on the state. Especially since there is always the chance of having a child with large medical expenses. And really, 30 is not that old to start having children. You don’t really start getting infertility and increased risk until about 35. And it’s not that high until about 40. Plenty of time for 4-6 children, especially if the mother is staying at home.
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Bookcat
Guest
One must judge before God…
(I am not so sure though that such would be a serious reason… Debt is a fact of life for the college grad in the west… one can provide for ones children with less than one thinks…at least the first!..families in other poorer countries have been seen to be happier with more children and less than what we in the west tend to look think is needful)
One can really one just consolidates the loans and gets a lower smaller payment…and well one is going to pay them for years anyhow.
An it is very good for the marriage for children to come sooner than later…and do not count on stats in terms of infertility…my wife was was 29 when we married…and we have had a only one child born to us thus far …she is now 37 …and that was after seeing a doctor trained by the Paul VI institute and a pilgrimage to Lourdes (the rest have gone ahead of us to God).
Compendium of the Catechism issued by Pope Benedict XVI
- When is it moral to regulate births?
2399
The regulation of births, which is an aspect of responsible fatherhood and motherhood, is objectively morally acceptable when it is pursued by the spouses without external pressure; when it is practiced not out of selfishness but for serious reasons; and with methods that conform to the objective criteria of morality, that is, periodic continence and use of the infertile periods.
- What are immoral means of birth control?
Every action - for example, direct sterilization or contraception - is intrinsically immoral which (either in anticipation of the conjugal act, in its accomplishment or in the development of its natural consequences) proposes, as an end or as a means, to hinder procreation
Compendium of Social Doctrine
“232. The family contributes to the social good in an eminent fashion through responsible motherhood and fatherhood, the spouses’ special participation in God’s work of creation[519]. The weight of this responsibility must not be used as a justification for being selfishly closed but must guide the decisions of the spouses in a generous acceptance of life. “In relation to physical, economic, psychological and social conditions, responsible parenthood is exercised both in the duly pondered and generous decision to have a large family, and in the decision, made for serious reasons and in respect of the moral law, to avoid for a time or even indeterminately a new birth”[520]. The motivations that should guide the couple in exercising responsible motherhood and fatherhood originate in the full recognition of their duties towards God, towards themselves, towards the family and towards society in a proper hierarchy of values.”
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/justpeace/documents/rc_pc_justpeace_doc_20060526_compendio-dott-soc_en.html
Get a copy of the book “Covenanted Happiness” by Msgr. Cormac Burke (who served on the Roman Rota)
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goldangel
Guest
I agree that NFP relies on discernment but there are several things you can plan for:It can be a very lucrative profession with 5-10 years experience. Starting salaries are about normal though. To pay it off in 7 years, I think I would have to pay about $700 a month (only $200 more than the minimum payment). I realize this is a little aggressive considering I do need to replace my car in the coming years but think it is a good goal.
One of my main concerns was if I married someone with a lot of student loans herself. Two minimum payments could be in the $1000-$1,500 range. A bit tough for one income. I realize this is speculative as people have said, but I recently got to know a woman that I liked who probably was going to have loans in the $70,000 range. (not planning on dating her… long distance and haven’t talked in a few months). It just made me think if I could even afford to date (and eventually marry) women with those loans. I’m not trying to sound materialistic. I’m just not a rich dude!
I’d say don’t worry about the student loans of someone you haven’t met, although I can understand why you’d think she would have them. If you want to do financial planning, my suggestion is to focus on paying down your loans and building an emergency fund that can sustain you for 6 months to a year if you are laid off. You don’t have to have this 100% but can set goals and work towards them. Layoffs are getting more common but I hope they never affect you. Think about where you want to live so you don’t buy more house than you can afford, and consider renting. Read about foreclosures and the reasons behind them, and make sure you have access to health insurance that will support a family.
Is all this necessary to have a family? no. but since you are single right now and focusing on planning, here are some ideas.
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Syri
Guest
You’re on the WRONG website OP. everyone here just wants you to go out and have a dozen kids. In their minds, thnere’s no way to be a “good” Catholic and practice NFP unless you’re drying. The catechism says JUST REASONS. If when you find yourself married, you can see that you are not in the best financial place to have a child, I see no reason why you shouldn’t use NFP. Better to wait than raise a welfare baby
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MAV0524
Guest
I personally see nothing wrong with using welfare and find the term “welfare baby” very degrading. I always thought it was funny how people assail food stamps and WIC yet will not hesitate to apply for unemployment compensation, use public education and apply for financial aid, apply for medicare and social security benefits, etc. It’s pretty subjective IMO what people find is acceptable to take from government and what is not acceptable.
But anyways, yeah many people go overboard with reasons to use nfp. Ex.) insisting that people have to be near death or be living worst than the poorest of the poor in Africa to use NFP.
Another bad thing is insisting people need to get permission from a priest to use NFP. I have never read or heard of the church requiring such a thing. It seems like they are legislating extra laws on believers with that one. Sure, getting advice from a priest may be wise, but it’s not really necessary or really practical in every case.
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angelerulastiel
Guest
It is one thing to find yourself in need and turn to welfare to help you get back on your feet. It is entirely different, and entirely irresponsible, to get pregnant knowing you cannot afford to care for your child and expecting others to support you. It is not fair to the people who need welfare for you to drain the source unnecessarily. It is also unfair to those with children of their own for you to expect them to care for your child as well. If others don’t have a say in your decisions you should not intentionally create a burden on them.
I think that using the term welfare baby was perhaps a little crude. But I understand the intent behind it.
Oh, and don’t assume that everyone against welfare would be willing to utilize unemployment, public education, apply for financial aid, or apply for medicare and social security benefits.
I think that using the term welfare baby was perhaps a little crude. But I understand the intent behind it.
Oh, and don’t assume that everyone against welfare would be willing to utilize unemployment, public education, apply for financial aid, or apply for medicare and social security benefits.
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MAV0524
Guest
The welfare baby term isn’t just crude. It’s degrading to the poor and hateful. It’s a baby, not a welfare baby. It reminds me of using the term “white trash” to refer to people who live in mobile homes.
Many welfare programs provide marginal benefits to simply improve the quality of life for the poor. I see nothing wrong with having children even though a little help from the government might help. For example, WIC is generally not that generous to move someone from utter poverty to fine living, but it can help raise the poor’s living standards. I guess I just view it that you should maximize your self economic interest. I would certainly apply for social security even if I had a large 401K or pension. It would be in my interest to do so, and I believe the vast majority of people do. I would do the same with unemployment compensation. I personally applied for need-based financial aid and received quite a bit of it (grants, work study, etc). I saw it in my personal self-interest and didn’t think twice about it. If I didn’t apply for it, I would have been in a lot more debt than I am now and would still have to pay high taxes to pay for such programs when I graduate and get a job.
I personally probably wouldn’t apply for food stamps even if I qualified
unless I was kind of desperate. I’m guessing this is because of the social stigma attached to it. I would change my mind though if I had kids and I could only afford substandard food for them (Ramen noodles, etc.).
I just think it’s important for Catholics not to rag on welfare too much or act like applying for it is sinful if you’re not on the verge of starvation. It’s entirely subjective what is socially acceptable welfare and what isn’t. Many times people criticizing it are receiving social security checks themselves. Of course some (or many) people abuse gov’t programs, but they are normally the lazy ones in the first place whether it be in the workforce, school, or where ever.
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