Students try to banish Catholic chaplain from campus for anti-gay stance

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Be careful with the “no judgment” language…it leads many to form false ideas. Final judgment is God’s business. Living the life well with God and His Church on earth is ours to help each other do.

Similarly “love” has been defined down too by our society…truly in a diabolical way.

To love means to pursue someone else’s greatest good, which is Beatitude. Divine union on earth and in heaven. You can’t have this if you are willfully going against the will of God.

Love isn’t a feeling. Love really when you think about it…is the work one is willing to do INSIDE OF THEMSELVES to do the will of God. It’s all the internal “projects” we should or must take on to align our will to His. Working on our patience, our generosity, our tiredness, pushing away our complaints, stopping our unkind words…or thoughts!..it may mean putting our desires under control of the will as an act of love for God. It may going against our grain of laziness, sensuality, vanity, pride.

That’s the grander understanding of love that the Catholic Church teaches…or should teach with more constancy and less mumblihood.
I agree we ought to be careful of judgement language. Though to be clear I wasn’t using it in the moralist sense, but rather the relative sense.

I wasn’t using love as a sense of feeling at all. I was just using scripture as you do to suggest that Jesus taught us to love one another even our enemies and those who have committed sin. In fact in the latter point he is clear by saying that even if a person has sinned against us everyday and on the 7th day he shall say he is sorry we are too forgive him. Thus my point is I think Jesus would tell us to love gay people, even if he wouldn’t condone the act. It seems to me many on this forum don’t espouse that basic belief.

I do agree that the more you love God (through actions not just words) and follow his teachings the closer to God you become. However, my understand its not a zero sum game you just don’t start at zero if you don’t follow Gods teaching you just move further away its a relative sense of determination.
 
There are two issues in this thread - a Yukon high school and the GWU Newman Center. Let’s talk on the high school first.

After some searching I found a news story on the policy at Vanier High School that holds that homosexual acts are gravely disordered and immoral. Concerned parents want the policy amended so that gay students don’t feel hurt:

cbc.ca/news/canada/north/story/2013/03/28/north-vanier-yukon-school-meeting.html

To the best that I can find, no students were told not to attend. Some students and teachers have left the school. This is also an odd situation in that the school is administered by the diocese but (apparently) receiving public funding - the Canadian education system mingles public funding in parochial schools to a larger extent than happens in the U.S.

If any of you can find evidence that the bishop kicked out two gay students, please post it here, otherwise I think we’re jumping to conclusions.

On to the title conversation of this thread:

I find it interesting that these gay students were implored to remain celibate by their priest, because this is the exact conversation I had with my priest when I confessed sleeping with my then-girlfriend. It was a conversation that happened a number of times about a number of different girls, until I had a conversion of heart at 22 and remained celibate until I was married. As an unmarried man, I was held to the same standard as a gay man - aspire to chastity in thought and deed. What did these students think the priest would say?

“My son, I counsel your heterosexual peers to abstain until marriage, but because you can’t get married, go have fun. It’s so much more unfair to you that I think you should do what you want so long as you love him.”

No, Catholic teaching is not popular. It’s not intended to be popular but rather reflects the authentic teaching of the church, the Truth as we Catholics believe it to be. That is a fundamental right of any human being (including those protected by the Constitution) that we may believe as we wish and speak to the truth as we wish.

Catholic teaching often offends people. Come to think of it, most religious teaching, as well as most non-religious teaching, offends someone. If the issue were about a Muslim student association that did not like the Church preaching Jesus Christ as the Son of God, Crucified, Died, and Resurrected (all of which contradict Islamic teaching), we’d not be having this conversation on this thread. It should not bother us if Muslims were insulted that our theology and theirs are incompatible. Is it fair to say that Catholics are more torn about how the Church should approach adults in committed homosexual relationships?

One difficulty I’ve found is that it is very difficult to say “what you want to do physically with the person you love is sinful” without coming off as condemning the person. That’s as true for the openly gay couple we know who have been together for a decade as it is for her cousin who is living with his girlfriend before they marry this summer. But to tell the gay couple invites an accusation of bigotry, while to tell the straight couple just makes us sound old-fashioned. Yet we hold them both to the same standard of chaste living. Would it help if we began every conversation of this nature with the truth that our being created with sexual desires doesn’t give us license to exercise them, but rather that a Christian (married, single, gay, straight, or inclined to paraphilia) is called to self-control of mind and body?

Another difficulty in espousing why the Church believes homosexuality to be immoral is that those who hear the preaching conflate a moral stance with a legal stance. The Church is also opposed to pornography, adultery, premarital sex and masturbation, all of which are things that are legal (or, at least, generally not prosecuted) in the U.S. The Church condemns these because they break from a chaste life - if done repeatedly they can become a gravely disordered life. On homosexuality, there’s the added dimension of the debate over gay marriage, and members of a Church have every right (and if we are to preach the Gospel, the mandate) to proclaim the immorality of homosexual acts (as well as others) and the immorality of gay marriage (and cohabitation, open marriage, and pre-marital sex as well).

By proclaim I mean speak the truth - our center is Jesus Christ, and when you introduce yourself as Catholic, talk of Jesus. If asked on sexual morality, speak to chastity. If asked on moral relationships, speak to the Golden Rule. If asked on materialism, speak to poverty and charity. Once legislation is passed allowing gay marriage (something inevitable, I think), we may no longer say that it is illegal, because it will not be, but we may say that we believe it to be immoral. That should not be out of hatred, or out of vengeance, or out of anything other than the desire to speak the truth.

What’s the difference? Consider the case of a Catholic who is homosexual and honestly desires to follow the Church’s call to celibacy. Such people have started threads on these boards - and on one in particular the author was bothered by his friends who, not only supported his homosexuality, but encouraged him to date other men. This is the opposite of what he was looking for. He heard the truth and followed it.
 
I agree we ought to be careful of judgement language. Though to be clear I wasn’t using it in the moralist sense, but rather the relative sense.

I wasn’t using love as a sense of feeling at all. I was just using scripture as you do to suggest that Jesus taught us to love one another even our enemies and those who have committed sin. In fact in the latter point he is clear by saying that even if a person has sinned against us everyday and on the 7th day he shall say he is sorry we are too forgive him. Thus my point is I think Jesus would tell us to love gay people, even if he wouldn’t condone the act. It seems to me many on this forum don’t espouse that basic belief.

I do agree that the more you love God (through actions not just words) and follow his teachings the closer to God you become. However, my understand its not a zero sum game you just don’t start at zero if you don’t follow Gods teaching you just move further away its a relative sense of determination.
On love…the point still stands. To love others…to love God is to commit to do work, often very hard work in ourselves. It doesn’t mean to hand hold, gloss over grave matters that could get in the way of living the divine life here on earth or in heaven and smile, while singing Marty Haugen songs.
 
At a Catholic school, if the two were a “couple” then yes, Catholics should see a problem with this being allowed - not a problem with the Bishop prohibiting this behavior.
So you are for prevent openly gay students from attending a Catholic school?
Actually, it’s homosexual behaviors that are sinful - not just sex acts. For two men or two women to attend an even as a “couple” to dance and do other things as a couple is just as much against Catholic teaching. Not as gravely sinful as homosexual sex acts but still inappropriate - especially in a Catholic setting.
Actually, from what I can tell the church is simply against the sexual act. I mean by your logic as a man if I dance with another guy to practice dancing that is morally wrong or if I kiss my male friend or my father for that matter that is morally wrong. I mean if this were the case there are some rather strange contradictions of really strong male friendships in the bible.
 
On love…the point still stands. To love others…to love God is to commit to do work, often very hard work in ourselves. It doesn’t mean to hand hold, gloss over grave matters that could get in the way of living the divine here on earth or in heaven and smile, while singing Marty Haugen songs.
I think at this point we are just going to have to agree to disagree. I will say my definition of love is the same as yours no where am I suggesting we hand hold and gloss over things I am just saying that Jesus told us to love one another even sinners. It seems like we don’t do a good job of that.
 
Openly gay people certainly arent allowed to receive the Eucharist. Do you have a problem with that too?
Actually this simply isn’t the case. Openly gay people are allowed to receive the Eucharist as long as they are chaste. At least that is my understanding.
 
Actually this simply isn’t the case. Openly gay people are allowed to receive the Eucharist as long as they are chaste. At least that is my understanding.
Thats contradictory. Engaging in homosexual acts isnt being chaste. A person who is open about their gay lifestyle and their participation in sodomy is not allowed to receive the Eucharist.

God invites us all to His table. The key is we have to respond
 
The issue, if I understand correctly, is that there were two gay students who wanted to attend prom as a dating couple but they weren’t allowed to because the Church does not approve same-sex relationships. There is nothing wrong with someone having a gay orientation and trying to live a chaste life while attending a Catholic school. Gay teens can even support each other in following Church teaching. Some of the most successful Catholics have been gay roommates (lived together but had separate rooms, living as brothers/friends) who helped each other lead chaste lives. And no, gays should not be harassed or bullied.

If the two gay guys wanted to attend as friends, that is one thing. There are always groups of friends at dances who didn’t bring dates but still wanted to go for the social aspect or to get professional photos taken with their friends. But it’s the relationship aspect that is not approved and can cause scandal.

Catechesis in general has been poor over the past several decades and there are many individuals who were raised Catholic and are trying to live their faith, but are confused about Church teaching and even support intrinsic evils (the nuns told them to do what they “feel” is right and support abortion, women’s ordination, etc.). And even if everyone around them knew it was wrong, it’s not good for the souls of the dating homosexual couple for everyone to pretend like they’re not doing anything wrong. Lately, “tolerance” has come to mean to let everyone do whatever they want without saying anything. I’ve even witnessed parents not punish their kids because they think they should be allowed to do whatever they want, or they want to be their friend instead of a parent. But people have the right to know if they’re committing sin, especially when culture tells us there is no sin, and a right to be offered help to escape a sinful lifestyle (e.g. inform them about Courage and NARTH), whether or not they choose to accept help. Culture tells homosexuals that they have to either remain in the closet or “come out” and embrace the LGBT lifestyle, when there is a third option: you can admit to having same-sex attraction and still strive for holiness and follow Church teaching.

I also think teens have the right to know how dangerous the gay lifestyle is. High rates of STDs, cancer, intestinal infections, depression/suicide (highest rates are actually in countries most non-religious and accepting of the gay lifestyle), promiscuity, short and “open” relationships, life expectancies that are lower even than the average smoker, etc. These are open secrets in the LGBT community that gay activists don’t want us to talk about, but I believe there is such a thing as informed consent and people should know what they’re getting into before they begin, rather than unexpectedly have something awful happen to them or one of their partners. 😦
 
I think at this point we are just going to have to agree to disagree. I will say my definition of love is the same as yours no where am I suggesting we hand hold and gloss over things I am just saying that Jesus told us to love one another even sinners. It seems like we don’t do a good job of that.
Well lets take an example…to love someone who is gay may mean more than putting up an “all are welcome” sign…it may mean to commit to befriending them…over a long period of time…spending time with them…listening…goofing off…praying for them daily…going to games together…fasting or mortifying quietly for them,…with only God knowing your sacrifice. It may mean really studying the Church’s teaching on this topic…and waiting patiently for “little” opportunities to answer questions about your own married life…which you are also “pouring out” yourself for. You may get questions about family life…your kids…you may get asked “why are you so serene…how can you be so generous a father”.

Etc. and our acts of love and friendship may not lead to any sort of reconsideration…or a more chaste life for our friend…but God doesn’t waste graces. He will use our friendship and our thousands of acts of charity for our friend somehow somewhere.

It is in that tone of effortful patient friendship that we love the other, never once condoning sin…and being prepared to confront that sin as a friend would an alcoholic.
 
The manner in which I read this was that they weren’t allowed in the school. Second homosexuality is not a sin in the Catholic church, homosexual acts are.
That was my first read, too, but I think the original comment explicitly said ‘prom’…
The original comment said nothing about “prom.” I also understood it to mean that the students were prohibited from attending school:
I can give you even worse - Our Bishop is under attack for our Catholic High School in Whitehorse having a pro Catholic anti gay policy that resulted in two students not being allowed to attend because they were openly gay. Who would have believed it a Catholic school that follows church doctrine - what were we thinking.
My initial thought was “What Church doctrine does this person think prohibits gay people from attending school??!!”
attending the prom as a romantic couple is a near occasion of sin, which may lead to sexual sin. So, it would be responsible for the school to not permit them to attend as a couple.
Going to the prom together as an openly, affirmed gay couple is practicing homosexuality. There appears to be an effort to be seen as a committed couple.
One of the reasons this interests me is that I once attended prom with a mixed group of people. A couple were dating each other but the majority were not romantically or sexually involved with one another. For the most part, we were just a group of friends going to a high school event. At no point did anyone from the school (administration, faculty, chaperones, whatever) ever asked any of us whether we were romantically or sexually involved with one another. I can’t help but wonder how other schools are keeping track of whether a student is interested in or dating another person, or why they would go to all that trouble. :confused:
 
Thats contradictory. Engaging in homosexual acts isnt being chaste. A person who is open about their gay lifestyle and their participation in sodomy is not allowed to receive the Eucharist.

God invites us all to His table. The key is we have to respond
Please explain to me how a person that identifies with being gay means that person is engaging in homosexual acts. The two are far from synonymous. As far as I understand it the position of the church is pretty clear that one who claims to be gay, but does not act on it still is entitled to receive the Eucharist.
 
The original comment said nothing about “prom.” I also understood it to mean that the students were prohibited from attending school:

My initial thought was “What Church doctrine does this person think prohibits gay people from attending school??!!”

One of the reasons this interests me is that I once attended prom with a mixed group of people. A couple were dating each other but the majority were not romantically or sexually involved with one another. For the most part, we were just a group of friends going to a high school event. At no point did anyone from the school (administration, faculty, chaperones, whatever) ever asked any of us whether we were romantically or sexually involved with one another. I can’t help but wonder how other schools are keeping track of whether a student is interested in or dating another person, or why they would go to all that trouble. :confused:
The student is OPENLY gay. That means sexually active. Thats how the school knows.
 
Please explain to me how a person that identifies with being gay means that person is engaging in homosexual acts. The two are far from synonymous. As far as I understand it the position of the church is pretty clear that one who claims to be gay, but does not act on it still is entitled to receive the Eucharist.
If one isnt engaging in gay acts, theres no need to identify as gay or let others know their personal busines.

Gay isnt an identity. Its not an orientation. Its a political term.
 
I also think teens have the right to know how dangerous the gay lifestyle is. High rates of STDs, cancer, intestinal infections, depression/suicide (highest rates are actually in countries most non-religious and accepting of the gay lifestyle), promiscuity, short and “open” relationships, life expectancies that are lower even than the average smoker, etc. These are open secrets in the LGBT community that gay activists don’t want us to talk about, but I believe there is such a thing as informed consent and people should know what they’re getting into before they begin, rather than unexpectedly have something awful happen to them or one of their partners. 😦
I just want to dispel these myths that you espouse. In none of the categories are they exclusive to LGBT people and nor are the rates higher than any other demographic there is one exception and that is on HIV infection which is highest among men gay and bisexual men, but overall STD rates LGBT people are par with their heterosexual peers.
 
My apologizes all were raised Catholic. Hitler had pretty high esteem for the church even though he disagreed with its theology. Mussolini was indeed an atheist and took after his father. Oh since we ought not lie in this forum I think it ought to be clear that Franco was supported by the communists in the 1930s. Though I’m glad you agree with my point that socialism is exercised by both spectrums of the political line (ie. liberals and conservatives),
You really have no grasp of history do you? Hitler tolerated the church simply because there were so many Catholics - they were not a small minority like the Jews. Why do you think he went after the Catholics in Poland?

Franko was supported by communists in the 1930s?:rolleyes: Franco was the leader of the Nationalists and he secured his victory in the Spanish Civil war with the support of Italy and Germany, the Soviets supported the Republican side by providing equipment and through volunteers fighting in the International Brigades. Franco was awarded a medal by the Nazis and wore it the rest of his life whenever he wore his military uniform. It was strange seeing that medal from the 1930s in the early 1970s.
 
I just want to dispel these myths that you espouse. In none of the categories are they exclusive to LGBT people and nor are the rates higher than any other demographic there is one exception and that is on HIV infection which is highest among men gay and bisexual men, but overall STD rates LGBT people are par with their heterosexual peers.
It seems Prodigal Son1 has a new handle.
 
I wasn’t using love as a sense of feeling at all. I was just using scripture as you do to suggest that Jesus taught us to love one another even our enemies and those who have committed sin. In fact in the latter point he is clear by saying that even if a person has sinned against us everyday and on the 7th day he shall say he is sorry we are too forgive him. Thus my point is I think Jesus would tell us to love gay people, even if he wouldn’t condone the act. It seems to me many on this forum don’t espouse that basic belief…
Jesus also said something about those who not listen even to the Church…

I think what bothers many about your complaint here is that you have it backwards: if those of us who stand with the Church on her teachings on homosexuality did not love homosexual persons, we would not want them in heaven with us, but we do, and that is WHY we want them live in a way that draws them closer to Christ and His Church rather than a way that makes them resent the Church and deny clear teachings of Christ. The people who “affirm” homosexual unions are not showing love for homosexual persons at all; they are encouraging them to continue in sin and darkness. The world needs less “love” of that sort and more of that kind that wills the good of everyone, which lies in drawing closer to God and keeping His commandments.
 
Isn’t it more compassionate to help someone pursue their greatest good, than to make them “feel welcomed”. Are transitory feelings more important than divine unity with God?
Attraction to the same sex is often not transitory.
Be careful with the “no judgment” language…it leads many to form false ideas. Final judgment is God’s business. Living the life well with God and His Church on earth is ours to help each other do.

Similarly “love” has been defined down too by our society…truly in a diabolical way.

To love means to pursue someone else’s greatest good, which is Beatitude. Divine union on earth and in heaven. You can’t have this if you are willfully going against the will of God.

Love isn’t a feeling. Love really when you think about it…is the work one is willing to do INSIDE OF THEMSELVES to do the will of God. It’s all the internal “projects” we should or must take on to align our will to His. Working on our patience, our generosity, our tiredness, pushing away our complaints, stopping our unkind words…or thoughts!..it may mean putting our desires under control of the will as an act of love for God. It may going against our grain of laziness, sensuality, vanity, pride.

That’s the grander understanding of love that the Catholic Church teaches…or should teach with more constancy and less mumblihood.
There is more than one definition to love in Catholic theology and honestly when serious Catholic are discussing love we use terms like eros, agape and philia which are far more specific.
Openly gay people certainly arent allowed to receive the Eucharist. Do you have a problem with that too?
If they are in a state of grace and done first communion etc. they may receive communion.
Actually, it’s homosexual behaviors that are sinful - not just sex acts. For two men or two women to attend an even as a “couple” to dance and do other things as a couple is just as much against Catholic teaching. Not as gravely sinful as homosexual sex acts but still inappropriate - especially in a Catholic setting.
It is not inherently a sin.
You are using the word celibacy wrong, it means abstaining from marriage.
Thats contradictory. Engaging in homosexual acts isnt being chaste. A person who is open about their gay lifestyle and their participation in sodomy is not allowed to receive the Eucharist.

God invites us all to His table. The key is we have to respond
Openly gay does not mean sexually active.
The student is OPENLY gay. That means sexually active. Thats how the school knows.
Being “out” does not actually mean sexually active, it means not being "in the closet’.
 
You really have no grasp of history do you? Hitler tolerated the church simply because there were so many Catholics - they were not a small minority like the Jews. Why do you think he went after the Catholics in Poland?

Franko was supported by communists in the 1930s?:rolleyes: Franco was the leader of the Nationalists and he secured his victory in the Spanish Civil war with the support of Italy and Germany, the Soviets supported the Republican side by providing equipment and through volunteers fighting in the International Brigades. Franco was awarded a medal by the Nazis and wore it the rest of his life whenever he wore his military uniform. It was strange seeing that medal from the 1930s in the early 1970s.
Look I’m not going to denigrate your knowledge of history. For one he it is well known he had high esteem for church leaders, even though he disagreed with its tenants, although he in the future he envisioned a future with no Christian religion in Germany, but acknowledged the difficulty considering Germany was majority Protestant. However, many scholars point to agreements between Hitler and the Church which suggest the Catholic church was one of the few entities granted any autonomy during this time period. Much of this can be seen through a lens of favoritism since Hitler was himself raised Catholic.

Yes, Soviet Russia did indeed support Franco in 1937 along with Nazi Germany and Totalitarian Italy. Alignment against the Communists only came about after the fall of Berlin and the outbreak of the Cold War.
 
Nah, it’s demonstrating the love compassion of the church. Allowing gay teens to attend doesn’t violate any church teaching at least none that I can find. Nor does it condone the act of homosexuality. Instead, it says to me we are all brothers and sisters in faith and we are to show each other love and compassion. It’s not as though the Priest is saying here is a bottle of lube go use the rectory and have fun.
There is no love in Affirming sin and encouraging disordered desires. It is contrary to the Gospel.
 
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