Students try to banish Catholic chaplain from campus for anti-gay stance

[seakelp]

No it isnt, its actually perfectly reasonable.

Key word is openly gay. That means they live the lifestyle aka engage in the behavior. That goes against what the school teaches. Allowing them could cause scandal to the other young impressionable minds that attend there.

Petrus,

You are quite incorrect. Hiding children from sin is far different from attempting to right wrongs.

I am an open sinner - I admit that sin in many ways. I admit it openly and I am just as quick to admit my own sinfulness, and the internal struggle to master my sinfulness. No, I am not homosexual, so that is not a particular sin I struggle with.

But casting out certain members of the Church from the guidance of the Church by excluding them, rather than trying to help them learn, is to my mind a serious sin.

 

[adrift]

I just want to dispel these myths that you espouse. In none of the categories are they exclusive to LGBT people and nor are the rates higher than any other demographic there is one exception and that is on HIV infection which is highest among men gay and bisexual men, but overall STD rates LGBT people are par with their heterosexual peers.

Dispelling myths means presenting evidence not just your flapping keyboard. Neither one of you did that and it seems both are not entirely correc at least on STD’s

AbstractThis study compared prevalence rates of most common sexually transmitted diseases (STD) in heterosexual and homosexual men who made respectively 12,201 and 5324 visits to an STD clinic over 18 months. Overall, homosexual men were significantly (p < 0.001) more likely than heterosexual men to have gonorrhea (30.31% vs. 19.83%), early syphilis (1.08% vs. 0.34%) and anal warts (2.90% vs. 0.26%) but less likely to have nongonococcal urethritis (NGU) (14.63% vs. 36.40%, p < 0.001), herpes genitalis (0.93% vs. 3.65%, p < 0.001), pediculosis pubis (4.30% vs. 5.35%, p < 0.005), scabies (0.42% vs. 0.76%, p < 0.02), and genital warts (1.68% vs. 6.69%, p < 0.001). In most cases the differences in rates remained significant (p < 0.05) when corrected for age and race. It is speculated that higher rates of gonorrhea and syphilis result from a larger mean number of sexual contacts, more potential sites of infection, and more hidden and asymptomatic disease, while the lower rates of the other STD result from a lesser susceptibility of anal mucosa to the causative agent(s) of NGU, herpes genitalis, and venereal warts or from a lack of pubic apposition (pediculosis pubis).

 

[stlcatholic86]

Jesus also said something about those who not listen even to the Church…

I think what bothers many about your complaint here is that you have it backwards: if those of us who stand with the Church on her teachings on homosexuality did not love homosexual persons, we would not want them in heaven with us, but we do, and that is WHY we want them live in a way that draws them closer to Christ and His Church rather than a way that makes them resent the Church and deny clear teachings of Christ. The people who “affirm” homosexual unions are not showing love for homosexual persons at all; they are encouraging them to continue in sin and darkness. The world needs less “love” of that sort and more of that kind that wills the good of everyone, which lies in drawing closer to God and keeping His commandments.

I don’t see how I have it backwards. I am simply saying the church can minister better to those who identify as LGBT. Instead often LGBT people feel judged and turned away from Catholicism. I know I did. I can tell those same people exist in this forum. Fr. James Martin, SJ, I think said it best when it is likely that Jesus would reach out to the LGBT community as he often did reach out to the outcasts of society. This doesn’t mean he would condone their sins, assuming Jesus though homosexuality was a sin, he seems pretty mum on the issue, just that they would be included at the table. So again tell me how including sinners of any type is backwards and offensive to people?

 

[stlcatholic86]

Dispelling myths means presenting evidence not just your flapping keyboard. Neither one of you did that and it seems both are not entirely correc at least on STD’s

Rude. 1. It only proves that STD rates are higher in certain categories, which dispels your own notion that gay people have a higher rate of STD rates overall. 2. This is the only evidence you bring what about the other issues which you claim. 3. You are the one who brought up the issue and therefore the burden is on you to prove the claim not for me to disprove it.

 

[markeverett49]

Who was ever cast out of the Church for being a homosexual person? It’s funny that in this connection----the category of human sexuality and Church teaching----that there isn’t a large group of people saying the Church must stop teaching that masturbation and viewing pornography is sinful because those teachings bother a far larger number of people! (“The masturbators I know are such happy, loving people!” “My roommate in college viewed a lot of porn and he was a really great guy, so how could you say there’s anything wrong with it?”)

 

[PetrusRomanus]

Dakota, there is no closet.

I dont make known to all and “come out” everytime im tempted to steal.

Being openly gay means living the lifestyle of a gay person which signifies living in sin. Therefore it is contradictory to live the gay lifestyle and claim to be in a state of grace, much like people who divorce and remarry arent allowed to receive the Eucharist.

They may receive the Eucharisg if they change their lives, however.

 

[fix]

Petrus,

You are quite incorrect. Hiding children from sin is far different from attempting to right wrongs.

I am an open sinner - I admit that sin in many ways. I admit it openly and I am just as quick to admit my own sinfulness, and the internal struggle to master my sinfulness. No, I am not homosexual, so that is not a particular sin I struggle with.

But casting out certain members of the Church from the guidance of the Church by excluding them, rather than trying to help them learn, is to my mind a serious sin.

There is no right to sin. Excluding those from events who cause scandal is no sin but a serious obligation. Jesus spoke powerfully about those who lead others into sin.

 

[seakelp]

Who was ever cast out of the Church for being a homosexual person? It’s funny that in this connection----the category of human sexuality and Church teaching----that there isn’t a large group of people saying the Church must stop teaching that masturbation and viewing pornography is sinful because those teachings bother a far larger number of people! (“The masturbators I know are such happy, loving people!” “My roommate in college viewed a lot of porn and he was a really great guy, so how could you say there’s anything wrong with it?”)

Mark,

You misinterpret my remarks, and I apologize if I wasn’t clear.

I am not saying homosexual acts are not sins. They are. I am not saying that I support a “homosexual lifestyle,” if that means that I encourage people to engage in homosexual acts. I do not.

But this is a discussion that I had in another thread with another poster (I think it was our brother, fix). Let me ask you: who taught you what is right, and what is wrong? How did you learn these things?

 

[seakelp]

There is no right to sin. Excluding those from events who cause scandal is no sin but a serious obligation. Jesus spoke powerfully about those who lead others into sin.

Hey, I was just thinking about you and that conversation we had in the Boy Scouts thread.

Don’t you think it applies here?

 

[PetrusRomanus]

Petrus,

You are quite incorrect. Hiding children from sin is far different from attempting to right wrongs.

I am an open sinner - I admit that sin in many ways. I admit it openly and I am just as quick to admit my own sinfulness, and the internal struggle to master my sinfulness. No, I am not homosexual, so that is not a particular sin I struggle with.

But casting out certain members of the Church from the guidance of the Church by excluding them, rather than trying to help them learn, is to my mind a serious sin.

Admitting to being an imperfect person and a sinner and trying to be a better person is different than a person who chooses to live in sin, obviously not trying to be better. Bad.analogy.

Casting out members.from Church and not accepting people into a PRIVATE school who openly oppose their policy is different. Again, bad.comparison.

 

[seakelp]

Admitting to being an imperfect person and a sinner and trying to be a better person is different than a person who chooses to live in sin, obviously not trying to be better. Bad.analogy.

Casting out members.from Church and not accepting people into a PRIVATE school who openly oppose their policy is different. Again, bad.comparison.

Kicking a kid out of a CATHOLIC school where he or she can learn CATHOLIC values when they most need them is different.

You, like others before you, miss the point of Catholic education. Like Christ, Catholic schools do not accept (or keep) people based on how righteous they are. They are there to try and help people come to God.

Who better to teach God’s ways than those that are most in danger of leading lives of persistent sinfulness?

 

[markeverett49]

But this is a discussion that I had in another thread with another poster (I think it was our brother, fix). Let me ask you: who taught you what is right, and what is wrong? How did you learn these things?

My parents, teachers at school, adult relatives, pastors in church. (I wasn’t raised Catholic; indeed, I was raised ANTI-Catholic.) As I grew older, I supplemented this teaching with philosophers and theologians. I’ve long since thought Aristotle was right when he said it wasn’t the purpose of ethics (-as a subject taken up by adults) was not to teach a person how to behave, for if a person hadn’t learned that already, it was probably too late for them! I think this is one reason for the movement to increase “sex ed” in lower school grades, to counteract any “traditional morality” they may be learning at home.

 

[Edward_H]

Would the principal or pastor overseeing a Catholic school be wrong to remove or not enroll a student who was an open, practicing thief, drug user, parent beater, Euchasist desecrator, porn distributor?

 

[adrift]

Look I’m not going to denigrate your knowledge of history. For one he it is well known he had high esteem for church leaders, even though he disagreed with its tenants, although he in the future he envisioned a future with no Christian religion in Germany, but acknowledged the difficulty considering Germany was majority Protestant. However, many scholars point to agreements between Hitler and the Church which suggest the Catholic church was one of the few entities granted any autonomy during this time period. Much of this can be seen through a lens of favoritism since Hitler was himself raised Catholic.

Yes, Soviet Russia did indeed support Franco in 1937 along with Nazi Germany and Totalitarian Italy. Alignment against the Communists only came about after the fall of Berlin and the outbreak of the Cold War.

encyclical, Mit Brennender Sorge condemned Nazis. The Nazi regime persecuted the Church. From the Church perspective it From a Roman Catholic church perspective the concordat prevented even greater evils being unleashed against the Church. Please name the Scholars.

 

[fix]

Mark,

You misinterpret my remarks, and I apologize if I wasn’t clear.

I am not saying homosexual acts are not sins. They are. I am not saying that I support a “homosexual lifestyle,” if that means that I encourage people to engage in homosexual acts. I do not.

But this is a discussion that I had in another thread with another poster (I think it was our brother, fix). Let me ask you: who taught you what is right, and what is wrong? How did you learn these things?

You do not teach by allowing and encouraging sin.

 

[seakelp]

My parents, teachers at school, adult relatives, pastors in church. (I wasn’t raised Catholic; indeed, I was raised ANTI-Catholic.) As I grew older, I supplemented this teaching with philosophers and theologians. I’ve long since thought Aristotle was right when he said it wasn’t the purpose of ethics (-as a subject taken up by adults) was not to teach a person how to behave, for if a person hadn’t learned that already, it was probably too late for them! I think this is one reason for the movement to increase “sex ed” in lower school grades, to counteract any “traditional morality” they may be learning at home.

I admire your ability to teach yourself. And I agree with much of virtue ethics.

But if you think that homosexual acts are wrong, don’t you think that kicking kids out of a Catholic school, where they stand a good chance of learning why homosexual acts are wrong, is condemning them to a life of sin?

Yes, it is ultimately the responsibility of each individual to live a life as close to Christ’s teachings as she can. But that’s a difficult task without the unconditional love and support of the Christian community! What lesson are we teaching other young students when we marginalize those who need our help the most?

 

[markeverett49]

As for the question of expelling children from a Catholic school (-I’m not sure that happened in this case, but on that subject in general), I didn’t grow up Catholic, much less go to a Catholic school, but I am aware children have been asked to leave Catholic schools for lots of reasons. One was becoming pregnant. Others have included cheating, bullying, and theft.

 

[Edward_H]

Attraction to the same sex is often not transitory.

There is more than one definition to love in Catholic theology and honestly when serious Catholic are discussing love we use terms like eros, agape and philia which are far more specific.

If they are in a state of grace and done first communion etc. they may receive communion.

It is not inherently a sin.

You are using the word celibacy wrong, it means abstaining from marriage.

Openly gay does not mean sexually active.

Being “out” does not actually mean sexually active, it means not being "in the closet’.

Though we use different words to describe love, they all share self-gift. The object of the act may differ, but the nature is the same, self donation.

 

[seakelp]

Would the principal or pastor overseeing a Catholic school be wrong to remove or not enroll a student who was an open, practicing thief,

Yes.

drug user,

Yes.

parent beater,

Yes. Depending on how safe that person is.

Euchasist desecrator,

Probably not, since they aren’t a part of the faith, anyway.

porn distributor?

Yes.

 

[fix]

Hey, I was just thinking about you and that conversation we had in the Boy Scouts thread.

Don’t you think it applies here?

Are we talking about a dance? No, one does not learn moral correctness by others enabling one’s distorted values or desires.