Students try to banish Catholic chaplain from campus for anti-gay stance

[adrift]

. None of us know if we are in a state of grace in Gods eye until the day we are judged before him.

We cannot judge others if that is what you mean but if you are saying we cannot know if we are in sin that is not true.

In order to commit sin, you have to know you are sinning. If you don’t know you are in the state of grace, than how do you dare receive communion? We cannot judge anothers state of grace but we sure know our own.

 

[clem456]

If the Church is wrong on this matter she may as well be wrong about the divinity of Christ, His redemptive power and the very existence of God. Doctrine is not changeable for a good reason.

Right.
Doctrine does not change because God is not changeable. The Church is guided by the Holy Spirit in faith and morals. Not always in behavior and actions, but in revealed truth yes.

Taking the word sin out of the equation for a moment…because that automatically puts people on red alert…
In a positive sense, the uniqueness of marriage is expressed in the natural law. We here would not exist to even have this debate if not for the union of a man and woman. None of us would exist without marriage. There is an undeniable objective reality that makes marriage unique. Homosexuality is not the same. This is not even debatable. To debate this is to engage in self deception. It’s no different than trying to tell people the sun rises in the west. It is false. It is not the same.

 

[The_Bucket]

Careful not to paint with a broad brush. Don’t confuse people who have homosexual attraction with, say, gay people in the public eye. There are plenty of people who do not list “homosexual” as the top thing that makes them who they are. I personally know a few.

And mark, I do want to note that while you are correct that a conservative Christian will be shone in a negative light today, there have been plenty of negative portrayals of homosexuals in the past. It’s wrong both ways.

 

[markeverett49]

And mark, I do want to note that while you are correct that a conservative Christian will be shone in a negative light today, there have been plenty of negative portrayals of homosexuals in the past. It’s wrong both ways.

I don’t think it is wrong for a television show to have a villain, and that villain may be from any group. The trouble comes when the villains come too often from the same pool. I’m not offended that some religious characters in crime dramas turn out to be perverts, but now the twist–surprise!—is when a very religious person is a good person. (This usually means a “Sister” who wears no habit, works with street people, judges no one and is on the outs with authority figures; it would be a real twist if such a character turned out to be the depraved killer!)

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

This came from your pen:

So where’s your evidence for your “fact”?

What kind of evidence do you want?

I honestly was talking about society in general. I have seen many cases where a male fornicating with a female is totally okay whereas if a guy wants to be in a long term relationship with another guy that is apparently pushing immorality despite the fact that not many condemn the former in proportion to the latter. My problem is the hypocrisy of the right going on and on about how sodomy is a sin that cries out to Heaven and yet they don’t vocalize complaint about oppression of the poor or the defrauding the laborer of his wages.

You do like making strawmen don’t you.

No, but I am prone to hyperbole. The picture illustrates that things can mean different things in different contexts, societies and time periods.

I think this is backwards. I’ve never heard of a heterosexual person say “this is who I am!” Heterosexuals do not think heterosexuality is the most significant fact about them. (It is curious how many homosexaul persons who are anti-essentialist in all other areas insist that there is an essence to homsexuality and what’s more, it is the deepest core of a person’s identity.)

Notice his wording, he is obviously pointing out that heterosexuals claim homosexuality is the sine qua non of homosexual persons whereas gay people just don’t agree.

People, I am not advocating for gay marriage, I am not saying sodomy (between two men, two women or a man and a woman) is morally acceptable.

While I do not agree with the push for gay marriage I am pleased with the long way we have come from the 1960s
youtube.com/watch?v=EqIIeGmhL2Q

Quite right. The only people identifying themselves based on their sexuality are gay people.

You ask anyone else…what are you…you will get this sort of list

• a man
• a husband
• a father
• a Catholic
• a child of God
• an engineer
• a son
• a Marine
• a priest
• a doc/lawyer/accountant, etc.
• and when the person gets very very tired…simply because they’ve been infected by our overly sexual society will cede finally that they are hetero.

Items 2 &3 are actually affirm it.

 

[stlcatholic86]

We cannot judge others if that is what you mean but if you are saying we cannot know if we are in sin that is not true.

In order to commit sin, you have to know you are sinning. If you don’t know you are in the state of grace, than how do you dare receive communion? We cannot judge anothers state of grace but we sure know our own.

Actually I’m not entirely sure that’s an accurate statement unless of course church doctrine has changed since the time of Joan of Arc which I have been reminded several times can’t happen. Since during the era church doctrine said it was impossible to know your state of grace with God.

It is my understand this hasn’t changed but rather grace for communion purposes have changed meaning if you knowing sin and have not repented then you are not in a state of grace that you can know. I do agree though you have to knowingly sin in order to commit a sin. I don’t believe homosexuality or its acts are disordered or sinful.

 

[Edward_H]

What kind of evidence do you want?

I honestly was talking about society in general. I have seen many cases where a male fornicating with a female is totally okay whereas if a guy wants to be in a long term relationship with another guy that is apparently pushing immorality despite the fact that not many condemn the former in proportion to the latter. My problem is the hypocrisy of the right going on and on about how sodomy is a sin that cries out to Heaven and yet they don’t vocalize complaint about oppression of the poor or the defrauding the laborer of his wages.

No, but I am prone to hyperbole. The picture illustrates that things can mean different things in different contexts, societies and time periods.

Notice his wording, he is obviously pointing out that heterosexuals claim homosexuality is the sine qua non of homosexual persons whereas gay people just don’t agree.

People, I am not advocating for gay marriage, I am not saying sodomy (between two men, two women or a man and a woman) is morally acceptable.

While I do not agree with the push for gay marriage I am pleased with the long way we have come from the 1960s
youtube.com/watch?v=EqIIeGmhL2Q

Items 2 &3 are actually affirm it.

Oh…ok…so it’s not a fact. I’m ok with that then.

 

[stlcatholic86]

Look at it this way: homosexual persons are about the same in number (maybe less) than Native Americans: who are you more likely to see in network show, a Native American or a homosexual person (-by that I mean one identified as such on the show)?

It’s interesting to contrast this with conservative Christians, who are a far larger portion of the population, but much more likely to be portrayed in a negative light.

I’ve alluded to this before but it’s assured to nail down a statistic of the LGBT population for various reasons. Granted there are attempts to do so, but its not nearly as accurate as counting racial or ethnic lines.

Yes you made quite a large tent by saying conservative Christians. I take a neutral stance on this subject because I think for much of American history conservative Christian ideology held the iron fist of the media complex. Thus to me what you see is more balance portrayed versus twenty years ago none of this would have even been in the spotlight. I guess I give this claim about the same weight as I give the claim that the media has a liberal bias. People of course disagree as I am sure many of you do, but research has shown this is simply not the case.

 

[adrift]

Actually I’m not entirely sure that’s an accurate statement unless of course church doctrine has changed since the time of Joan of Arc which I have been reminded several times can’t happen. Since during the era church doctrine said it was impossible to know your state of grace with God.

It is my understand this hasn’t changed but rather grace for communion purposes have changed meaning if you knowing sin and have not repented then you are not in a state of grace that you can know. I do agree though you have to knowingly sin in order to commit a sin. I don’t believe homosexuality or its acts are disordered or sinful.

I would like to know what doctrine you are referring to.

 

[PetrusRomanus]

Actually I’m not entirely sure that’s an accurate statement unless of course church doctrine has changed since the time of Joan of Arc which I have been reminded several times can’t happen. Since during the era church doctrine said it was impossible to know your state of grace with God.

It is my understand this hasn’t changed but rather grace for communion purposes have changed meaning if you knowing sin and have not repented then you are not in a state of grace that you can know. I do agree though you have to knowingly sin in order to commit a sin. I don’t believe homosexuality or its acts are disordered or sinful.

You do in fact know, because the Church tells you so.

You said you disagree, that is another story. You have to know something.you disagree with. Dont fool yourself.

 

[stlcatholic86]

You do in fact know, because the Church tells you so.

You said you disagree, that is another story. You have to know something.you disagree with. Dont fool yourself.

Hmm… I’m confused then so you are saying we can know we are in Gods grace in the mortal world?

Yes you are correct disagreement is the wrong word. Rather I don’t believe it to be true that homosexual acts are are a sin in Gods view. I can’t know this to be true nor false so agreement and disagreement would be inappropriate uses.

 

[PetrusRomanus]

Hmm… I’m confused then so you are saying we can know we are in Gods grace in the mortal world?

Yes you are correct disagreement is the wrong word. Rather I don’t believe it to be true that homosexual acts are are a sin in Gods view. I can’t know this to be true nor false so agreement and disagreement would be inappropriate uses.

But you do in fact know, because the Church is the Truth. And if the Church tells you something is not so, you know that to be the truth.

And maybe we cant.see our.souls as.God sees them, but based on the guidelines Hes given us, we can have a pretty good idea.

 

[markeverett49]

I’ve alluded to this before but it’s assured to nail down a statistic of the LGBT population for various reasons. Granted there are attempts to do so, but its not nearly as accurate as counting racial or ethnic lines. .

Right, because the sort of “reality” being counted here is in the eye of the beholder.

Nevertheless, the number of people claiming to be homosexual persons remains very small. I think there are more homosexual persons than Mormons (-maybe 2 % of the US population) but far, far fewer than African-Americans (roughly 13.5 %.) Of course, the Mormon and African-American populations include some homosexual persons, as would the Native American population, which is about the same size as the population of homosexual persons.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

Right, because the sort of “reality” being counted here is in the eye of the beholder.

Nevertheless, the number of people claiming to be homosexual persons remains very small. I think there are more homosexual persons than Mormons (-maybe 2 % of the US population) but far, far fewer than African-Americans (roughly 13.5 %.) Of course, the Mormon and African-American populations include some homosexual persons, as would the Native American population, which is about the same size as the population of homosexual persons.

Do remember that gays and lesbians are spread much more evenly throught the US though inclined to clump in major cities and suburbs.
Huffington Post:

The 17th annual “Where We Are on TV” report, released Friday, found that 4.4 percent of actors appearing regularly on prime-time network drama and comedy series during the 2012-13 season will portray lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender characters. That is up from 2.9 percent in 2011, which saw a dip in what had been a growing annual trend.

huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/05/glaads-where-we-are-on-tv-report-gay-characters_n_1942313.html

 

[The_Bucket]

Yes you are correct disagreement is the wrong word. Rather I don’t believe it to be true that homosexual acts are are a sin in Gods view. I can’t know this to be true nor false so agreement and disagreement would be inappropriate uses.

Why are you Catholic then? If the Church is wrong about homosexuality… then the Church is wrong period. There is no reason to be Catholic if you don’t agree with her teaching. There’s no reason to be a part of any belief system if you don’t agree with it. It’s illogical to do so.

But keep in mind if she is wrong about this then she might as well be wrong about everything. Including the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

There’s a major, major difference between falling short of God’s law and the teachings of the Church and refusing to accept those teachings. Everyone bar none falls short. Count me among the ones that have fallen way, way short. You simply reject it.

So again, why are you Catholic? The Church will not and cannot change its doctrine because its doctrine is divinely revealed. I mean, the infallibility of Her teaching is a pretty central tenet. If the Holy Spirit has allowed the Church to persist in error on this matter, then the Church is not the One True Church.

And if that’s the case, the Holy Spirit might as well not exist and Jesus is a liar when he said he’d prevent the gates of the netherworld from prevailing against Her.

 

[The_Bucket]

And Dakota, I’ll agree in part and disagree in part with what you’ve said. Your blasting of heterosexuality being “in your face” is a bit strange to me, but I’ll absolutely concur that many folks, especially some of our evangelical brothers and sisters get all riled up about homosexual acts but “let it go” when it comes to fornication between heterosexuals. Or divorce. Or talk about porn and masturbation. Or a whole litany of other grave sexual sins.

I think Pope Francis is doing well to challenge people like me who are more gung-ho about being socially conservative and standing up for marriage and following the letter of the law in those areas but totally failing to embrace the social justice aspect of the Church.

One cannot be a true follower of Christ without both. Paul said to avoid immorality of the flesh and Christ cautioned us about lust and adultery a few times, but our Church’s Founder also repeatedly blasted people for not being generous enough with their hearts and walking the walk by getting down into the muck with the rest of the world. I fully concede that I do not give enough to the poor and I am hesitant to engage with the world. Soup kitchens make me uncomfortable. The notion of handing money to addicts on the street makes my stomach churn. I have an uncharitable attitude towards people who have ruined their lives at their own hands. I am wrong for holding these attitudes and surely have committed many sins of omission for which I have repented and yet continued to commit for I love my relative luxury of a peaceful, middle-class life.

I am making slow progress on this. I hope those that struggle on the sexual morality/social conservatism side but are abundantly generous with their time and treasure are opening their hearts wider than I am to fully embrace the entirety of the Truth.