Studies In Official Catholic Prophecy

[SDA2RC]

Protestant101,
The Book of Revelation, or any other scripture for that matter, is not speculation, and no Catholic that I know has ever claimed it to be so. What Mercy Gate said was the the interpretations of some of those passage are nothing more than speculation, this is what we try to study, but not base our theology upon.

 

[mercygate]

Protestant101,
The Book of Revelation, or any other scripture for that matter, is not speculation, and no Catholic that I know has ever claimed it to be so. What Mercy Gate said was the the interpretations of some of those passage are nothing more than speculation, this is what we try to study, but not base our theology upon.

Thank you.

I wonder if Protestant101 recognizes that Revelation is the Mass writ large?

 

[Protestant101]

Protestant101,
The Book of Revelation, or any other scripture for that matter, is not speculation, and no Catholic that I know has ever claimed it to be so. What Mercy Gate said was the the interpretations of some of those passage are nothing more than speculation, this is what we try to study, but not base our theology upon.

Until I had studied it a bit; I did not realize that the Book of Revelation was largely a book of quotes. Certainly, Revelation is a much different book than any of the others in the Bible; it contains the prophetic history for the Church of all ages.

And, out of all the 404 verses in Revelation, it looks like 276 of them are either directly quoted, or somehow paraphrased from the Old Testament Scriptures. I don’t know how anyone could properly understand the New Testament, especially books like Revelation, if they don’t also have a close knowledge of the Old Testament.

I know, with passages like the one in Rev. 16 about “three unclean spirits,” there is a lot of confusion, in general, about all of John’s apocalyptic beasts and symbolic horsemen. So-called New Testament Churches today, who view the Old Testament as figments of the “out-dated” past, as fulfillments of antiquated beliefs; would find no current-day relevance with John’s writings in the book of Revelation.

Wasn’t it Paul who wrote: “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.?” (2 Tim.3:16). Since the New Testament had not yet been written when Paul said this; we can be very certain that he was referring to the Old Testament scriptures. “For, whatsoever things were written aforetime, were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.” (Rom.15:4).

Such texts certainly establish how that the composite prophecies in the book of Revelation are especially applicable to our current day and age, and that they were definitely inspired for our “doctrine,” our “learning,” our “instruction in righteousness.” And therefore have much to do with our salvation.

Just like the book of Genesis explains for us the beginning of the great controversy between Christ and Satan - between good and evil; this last book of the Bible describes for us the closing of this terrible conflict. This makes Revelation one of the most important books in the Bible. It describes the kind of people God will accept in heaven; and how we can become over-comers, by “the blood of the Lamb.” (12:11). Revelation also warns against the final assaults which Satan will launch against God’s people, as the battle reaches it’s climax.

Given this great importance for the book of Revelation; it would stand to reason that the devil hates this book; for it exposes his origins, his plans and devices, and his final destiny. It would also follow here that we can expect Satan to attack any or all of these prophecies which expose his deceptive plans and purposes.

 

[paarsurrey]

Our job is to preach the Gospel until he comes. If we do that, and if people come to Jesus, then the details of His coming will “in the twinkling of an eye” (to quote Paul) all be made clear.

Hi

The end time prophecies of Jesus and Muhammad , in my opinion, have been fullfilled with the advent of the PromisedMessiah 1835-1908. This has happened “in the twinkling of an eye” suddenly or surprisingly.

Our job now is only to accept this and support him, as we have been waiting for him for long. Now the wait should come to rest.

This is what I believe with reasons; others are welcome to differ with me with reasons.

Thanks

 

[Protestant101]

Hi

The end time prophecies of Jesus and Muhammad , in my opinion, have been fullfilled with the advent of the PromisedMessiah 1835-1908. This has happened “in the twinkling of an eye” suddenly or surprisingly.

Muhammad is a false prophet. He is not divine by nature; but Jesus is. Catholic understanding of prophecy has nothing to do with Muhammad.

 

[Yerusalyim]

PROT 101,

I see you looking at this whole question from a Protestant frame work, which makes sense. I’m reading the answers of the various Catholics on this site and understand them completely…you don’t simply because you have a different frame of reference.

We’ve tried to explain Private and Public revelation. No Catholic is required to believe in ANY apparition, even if the Church proclaims it worthy of belief…no doctrines of the church are ever based on these apparitions regardless of how popularly held they are.

You seem to want the Church to have an OFFICIAL and SPECIFIC interp of prophecy in the bible…such as what the mark of the beast will be…the church doesn’t do that…to book of Revelations is a symbolic book…lots of symbology that we simply can’t understand…for over a century various protestant groups have tried to give hard and fast answers on the book of revelations and its prophecies…whole religions have been founded on this basis…and all have been proven wrong…so no…you won’t find any specific declaration from the church on how specifically prophecy in the bible will be fulfilled.

 

[paarsurrey]

Muhammad is a false prophet. He is not divine by nature; but Jesus is. Catholic understanding of prophecy has nothing to do with Muhammad.

Hi

I mention here a prophecy of Muhammad, which you would kindly agree has been fulfilled; this also proves that Muhammad was a truthful Prophet of GodAllahYHWH.

Abu Hurairah narrated from the Prophet Muhammad SAW that he said:
I swear by Him in whose hands rests my life or death that you would definitely witness advent of the Ibne Maryam (Son of Mary); a truthful judge (among faiths/religions), he would break the Cross (with arguments) and kill the swine and suspend the war (for religious conversion).
(Bukhari Kitabul Anbeya, Bab Nazul-e Essa Ibne Maryam)

The above Prophecy by Muhammad has been fulfilled:

1. That you would definitely witness advent of the Ibne Maryam (Son of Mary, metaphorically); the PromisedMessiah 1835-1908 has come (which is second coming of Jesus as per Catholics), at the right time, as mentioned by Jesus and as mentioned by Muhammad.
2. A truthful judge (among faiths/religions), so many of them, somebody here on these forums mentioned that Protestants have 2000+ denominations.
3. He would break the Cross (with arguments). Jesus was given Sign of Jonah, which Protestants treated otherwise due to some misconception and took it death of Jesus on Cross, a gross mistake, and based their religion on this misconception. The PromisedMessiah was to clear this misconception; he has been informed by a clear Word from GodAllahYHWH that Jesus had not been killed on the Cross, though he had been put on Cross but he was delivered in near-dead position and survived death on Cross. He later died a natural and peaceful death (in Kashmir, India). This is a Sign of PromisedMessiah; he has been provided arguments from NTBible, Quran, historical resources etc, etc. Nobody could imagine it. This has happened “in the twinkling of an eye” suddenly or surprisingly.
4. And suspend the war (for religious conversion). This he has actually done.

Thanks

 

[Protestant101]

PROT 101,

I see you looking at this whole question from a Protestant frame work, which makes sense. I’m reading the answers of the various Catholics on this site and understand them completely…you don’t simply because you have a different frame of reference.

We’ve tried to explain Private and Public revelation. No Catholic is required to believe in ANY apparition, even if the Church proclaims it worthy of belief…no doctrines of the church are ever based on these apparitions regardless of how popularly held they are.

You seem to want the Church to have an OFFICIAL and SPECIFIC interp of prophecy in the bible…such as what the mark of the beast will be…the church doesn’t do that…to book of Revelations is a symbolic book…lots of symbology that we simply can’t understand…for over a century various protestant groups have tried to give hard and fast answers on the book of revelations and its prophecies…whole religions have been founded on this basis…and all have been proven wrong…so no…you won’t find any specific declaration from the church on how specifically prophecy in the bible will be fulfilled.

I understand in principle where you are coming from; and yes it is a different view point, to be sure. But I would add that no Protestant I know of claims to have all the answers for all the symbols used in Bible prophecy. We do believe that if the Bible makes it clear that a given symbol is clearly identified (not interpreted) by the Bible; then it should be “an official position” of all Churches.

Can you explain why God would warn us about such serious matters, if “we simply cannot understand?” To just dismiss it all and say “we simply cannot understand” is unBiblical. The Bible does explain some of these symbols.

It seems to me I have seen some on this forum say how that they see the woman in Rev.12 as “Mary” or as the Church?

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

 

[Protestant101]

Protestant101,
The Book of Revelation, or any other scripture for that matter, is not speculation, and no Catholic that I know has ever claimed it to be so. What Mercy Gate said was the the interpretations of some of those passage are nothing more than speculation, this is what we try to study, but not base our theology upon.

Most Catholics actually do base their theology on Catholic interpretations of Bible prophecy passages:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=2615394#post2615394

At this thread; post #331, we see an example of Catholics stating publicly their own “interpretation” of Rev. 12, so the aggressive criticism by Catholics of others who interpret Bible prophecy differently, is perhaps unwarranted?

Whether or not your “revelation” is “private” or “public” it is still the official view of the Catholic Church. They just don’t “require” you to believe all of it.

 

[Protestant101]

Most Catholics actually do base their theology on Catholic interpretations of Bible prophecy passages:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=2615394#post2615394

At this thread; post #331, we see an example of Catholics stating publicly their own “interpretation” of Rev. 12, so the aggressive criticism by Catholics of others who interpret Bible prophecy differently, is perhaps unwarranted?

Whether or not your “revelation” is “private” or “public” it is still the official view of the Catholic Church. They just don’t “require” you to believe all of it.

As another example of a Catholic with an interpretation of prophecy - in this case, “antichrist” I am submitting the following:

In his book entitled “Prophecy For Today,” which I bought at Lumen Christi Publications here; Edward Connor states the following on page 68:

“And every spirit that severs Jesus, is not of God, but is of anti-christ, of whom you have heard that he is coming, and now is already in the world.” (1 Jo.4:3).

"The heresy of Corenthus divided Christ into two distinct persons; St. John places all followers of this heresy in the camp of anti-christ. It is “the spirit” of anti-christ, ie, the spirit of heresy that is “already in the world.”

Amongst other things, the author has obviously used a version of the Bible that suits his fancy here; but it is also very convenient for some to just dismiss this as “private revelation” when so many of the faithful, (Catholic Church members) have adopted it.

It would be interesting to see if any Popes have ever commented on “antichrist.”

 

[Yerusalyim]

PROT:

Can you explain why God would warn us about such serious matters, if “we simply cannot understand?” To just dismiss it all and say “we simply cannot understand” is unBiblical. The Bible does explain some of these symbols.

That’s not necessarily so…we can not understand the Trinity…yet it’s a serious matter that is firmly believed by most who claim the title Christian.

I think one issue where we differ is many Prots look upon Revelations as ONLY PROPHECY whereas a more careful reading reveals that much of what is written in REV was occuring to the Chrisitian community AT THAT TIME.

While it is true that many see the woman mentioned in REV 12 as being Mary, if you read the foot notes of Rev 12 in the New American Bible this woman is currently interpreted as being representative of God’s people in the Old and New testament…the people of the old testament…Israel…gives birth to Messiah and the New Covenant. So, yes, there are generally accepted ideas about what revelations and other prophecies lay out…but no hard and fast time lines…for instance…discussion of the number 666 only mentions that Ceasar Nero was a good candidate for that numerical designation…but doesn’t speculate as to who it will apply in the “end times”…for that matter…the Church generally looks at “end times” in a different fashion…we’ve been in the “end times” since the ascension of Christ.

So, if you’re interesting in the “official Catholic Position” on the symbols (not necessarily prophecy) in Revelations or Daniel or elsewhere…read the footnotes of the New American Bible.

 

[Protestant101]

PROT:

That’s not necessarily so…we can not understand the Trinity…yet it’s a serious matter that is firmly believed by most who claim the title Christian.

I think one issue where we differ is many Prots look upon Revelations as ONLY PROPHECY whereas a more careful reading reveals that much of what is written in REV was occuring to the Chrisitian community AT THAT TIME.

While it is true that many see the woman mentioned in REV 12 as being Mary, if you read the foot notes of Rev 12 in the New American Bible this woman is currently interpreted as being representative of God’s people in the Old and New testament…the people of the old testament…Israel…gives birth to Messiah and the New Covenant. So, yes, there are generally accepted ideas about what revelations and other prophecies lay out…but no hard and fast time lines…for instance…discussion of the number 666 only mentions that Ceasar Nero was a good candidate for that numerical designation…but doesn’t speculate as to who it will apply in the “end times”…for that matter…the Church generally looks at “end times” in a different fashion…we’ve been in the “end times” since the ascension of Christ.

So, if you’re interesting in the “official Catholic Position” on the symbols (not necessarily prophecy) in Revelations or Daniel or elsewhere…read the footnotes of the New American Bible.

That’s a good tip - I appreciate that. I will check out The NA Bible footnotes a bit. And yes; I have heard many Catholics say either or of the two views on the woman in Rev.12. I suppose that the footnote, as you described it, would not really preclude then the prevailing belief amongst Catholics that it could also stand for Mary?

You should realize that Protestants actually do not view the books of Revelation, Daniel, etc. as ONLY prophecy. The first verse of Rev. says “The Revelation of Jesus Christ;” and indeed, He is the center of all prophecy, if it is correctly understood. Actually, Revelation even has it’s own beatitudes! There’s lots of good stuff in it; it is certainly not just limited to prophecy.

 

[mercygate]

That’s a good tip - I appreciate that. I will check out The NA Bible footnotes a bit. And yes; I have heard many Catholics say either or of the two views on the woman in Rev.12. I suppose that the footnote, as you described it, would not really preclude then the prevailing belief amongst Catholics that it could also stand for Mary?

You should realize that Protestants actually do not view the books of Revelation, Daniel, etc. as ONLY prophecy. The first verse of Rev. says “The Revelation of Jesus Christ;” and indeed, He is the center of all prophecy, if it is correctly understood. Actually, Revelation even has it’s own beatitudes! There’s lots of good stuff in it; it is certainly not just limited to prophecy.

Have you reached the point yet where you can see the Mass in the the book of Revelation? The liturgical echoes are replete – and thus the link to the end times. Heaven is our destiny. The Mass participates in the Heavenly banquet . . . .

 

[Yerusalyim]

Have you reached the point yet where you can see the Mass in the the book of Revelation? The liturgical echoes are replete – and thus the link to the end times. Heaven is our destiny. The Mass participates in the Heavenly banquet . . . .

You’ve read Scott Hahn…but yes…I have…in fact I see the Church in ALL scriptures. How can one read about the disciples in Emmaus recognizing Jesus at the “breaking of the bread” not see the clear Eucharistic reference?

 

[DebChris]

Prophecy is not a prediction of the future. When a person prophesies, he/she is speaking the words placed in his/her mouth by God.
Scripture says that the words are under the control of the prophet. What this means is that the prophet may choose not to speak, but as Jeremiah relates this can be very uncomfortable and the words come out. Any prophesy must be tested. In Charismatic meetings, this is done by a process of discernment. Another person may verify or disclaim what the initial speaker has said. I have not yet witnessed any disclaimers. What happens in larger gatherings is that the person who believes he/she has a prophecy or scripture passage to be shared will submit it to a special team for discernment. This team, comprised of members with at least ten years experience, will make a determination as to whether or not what has been submitted is truly from God.
In order to be valid, prophecy must line up with Scripture, Tradition, and the Magisterium.
God may use anybody as a prophet. The use by God of an individual does not however give that person the title of Prophet.

 

[Zooey]

Hey Zooey

You are the first Catholic to give me a sensible answer to this question;

I’m actually the Methodist-In-Residence…Though, if I were too far off the mark, someone would have called me on it long ago, I’m sure. (I hope…)

Nothing in Scripture is “private revelation” so I don’t quite see where you are going with this. As for the mark of the Beast, baptized Christians are sealed for Jesus Christ and cannot be claimed or “marked” by anything else.

Baptism is an indelible spiritual mark. “To whom much is given, much will be required”.

You are correct: minding our own business IS very much to preach the Gospel.

As for the objection you make to our Evangelical brethren’s claim that the Bible is wirtten FOR us but not TO us, I think they are right about this in that specific communities and circumstances prompted specific writings that have merit beyond their own time and place (wirtten for us) but every specific detail does not necessarily apply point-for-point to us as it did to the original audience. See the Catechism on the four senses of Scripture. Catholics are literal in their reading of Scripture but not literalistic.

Most Catholics actually do base their theology on Catholic interpretations of Bible prophecy passages:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=2615394#post2615394

At this thread; post #331, we see an example of Catholics stating publicly their own “interpretation” of Rev. 12, so the aggressive criticism by Catholics of others who interpret Bible prophecy differently, is perhaps unwarranted?

That’s not prophecy, David!! That’s history, and its an accomplished fact.
Just because a passage occurs in the book of Revelation, does NOT make it prophecy, in the sense of foretelling the future!
I have my great-grandmother’s Dutch Bible, & in Dutch, the book is “Openbaring”= making open; baring to the world; public!
As long as you define all of Revelation as foretelling, you will not understand it aright.

Whether or not your “revelation” is “private” or “public” it is still the official view of the Catholic Church. They just don’t “require” you to believe all of it.

Again, you need to understand the terms “public revelation” and “private revelation”. Nothing in any part of the Bible is ever a private revelation.The very fact that it is in Scripture means, of necessity that it is public revelation, because that’s what the Bible is!!

 

[Protestant101]

Have you reached the point yet where you can see the Mass in the the book of Revelation? The liturgical echoes are replete – and thus the link to the end times. Heaven is our destiny. The Mass participates in the Heavenly banquet . . . .

I must plead ignorance on this one. Can you give some specific examples? I do not see “The Mass” there at all.

 

[Protestant101]

I’m actually the Methodist-In-Residence…Though, if I were too far off the mark, someone would have called me on it long ago, I’m sure. (I hope…)

Baptism is an indelible spiritual mark. “To whom much is given, much will be required”.



That’s not prophecy, David!! That’s history, and its an accomplished fact.
Just because a passage occurs in the book of Revelation, does NOT make it prophecy, in the sense of foretelling the future!
I have my great-grandmother’s Dutch Bible, & in Dutch, the book is “Openbaring”= making open; baring to the world; public!
As long as you define all of Revelation as foretelling, you will not understand it aright.

Again, you need to understand the terms “public revelation” and “private revelation”. Nothing in any part of the Bible is ever a private revelation.The very fact that it is in Scripture means, of necessity that it is public revelation, because that’s what the Bible is!!

Rev.12 is a mix of prophecy and other things. My point is, is to point out how Catholics do indeed have “interpretations” of their own when it comes to the Bible, and deciphering the author’s intentions.

You keep saying that “nothing in the Bible is ever private revelation;” but that is very confusing when you say things like “only the interpretation” is “private.” Either the Bible says something or it does not. Not much would be “private” about it if you were to use only the Bible to explain itself.

To me, there is no such thing as “public” or “private” revelation. Besides prophecy, the book of Revelation actually spells out the PROCESS of revelation as it comes to us via God; and there is no mention of this “public” or “private” business. All of God’s Word is for everybody. No need to secret half of it away into “private” or “public” corners that seem to oppose one another more than anything else.

 

[Zooey]

To me, there is no such thing as “public” or “private” revelation. Besides prophecy, the book of Revelation actually spells out the PROCESS of revelation as it comes to us via God; and there is no mention of this “public” or “private” business. All of God’s Word is for everybody. No need to secret half of it away into “private” or “public” corners that seem to oppose one another more than anything else.

David, that’s exactly the point!! “All of God’s Word is for everybody”. That’s is PUBLIC revelation.
And nothing is “secreted” away. It’s just that, when the last apostle died (which would be John the Beloved, author of Revelation/Openbaring), there was no more public revelation.

Now, there are very interesting things that may be happening, written, etc, but they are all private revelation. Not secret, not hidden. But not part of the deposit of faith. Not any more. That which is perfect has come. That which was in part has passed away.
God does not change. He has sent His Only-Begotten Son. Jesus has suffered, died, risen again, and ascended into Heaven. He will come again. “No man knows the day nor the hour”. That’s it. We’re all awaiting His return. But we’re not attempting to add to, nor subtract from what has all ready been given. He told us not to do that!
We’re living day by day, hour by hour. What difference does it make when He comes, so long as we live so that “we will not be ashamed at His coming”?? That’s what He asks of us.
Prophecy? It’s a snare. It’s a trap. It’s a little side road like the one I took one hot summer day a few years ago. I wandered off, following yard sale signs, & I ended up on a dead end road, staring at a sign posted on the side of a barn:

"Harley Davidsons Only; All Others Will Be SHOT!!!

Jesus told us what to do. We need to do it. Not wander off in search of a bargain…and find ourselves looking down the barrel of satan’s shotgun!!!
How much simpler can it possibly be???

 

[Protestant101]

Prophecy? It’s a snare. It’s a trap. It’s a little side road like the one I took one hot summer day a few years ago. I wandered off, following yard sale signs, & I ended up on a dead end road, staring at a sign posted on the side of a barn:

"Harley Davidsons Only; All Others Will Be SHOT!!!

Jesus told us what to do. We need to do it. Not wander off in search of a bargain…and find ourselves looking down the barrel of satan’s shotgun!!!
How much simpler can it possibly be???

LOL, sounds like you’d better buy a Harley for those Garage Sales, eh?

As far as prophecy being a snare; may I ask you to demonstrate that from:

**a) **the Bible
b) any official Catholic writings/teachings

Thanks! I will look forward to your answer.