Study: Christian Population Shifts from Europe

[Petergee]

Egypt, Syria, and Palestine were once heavily populated and teeming Christian populations that either were eliminated by the sword, persecuted to the point of apostasizing, or decimated through the plagues…

Yes, Christian Syrians go way way back! God bless them who endured persecution, plagues, apostasy and remained firm in Jesus Christ…I have the highest opinion of Middle Eastern Christians who retained their faith for 2,000 years.

Yes, I would affirm that Turkish and Iranian Muslim women are well educated and advance…

To me, however, Saudi Arabia is akin to the Vatican because it is the birth place of Islam, so it is hard for us to separate the tribal customs from the religion…it is like Islam has been unable to help its original people transcend old ways…whereas Catholicism, universal Christianity right away advanced the welfare of women…

Yes, but how do you figure that Saudi Arabia is equivalent to the Vatican?
The Catholic Church’s birthplace was in Jerusalem in the Holy Land.

Islam started in Medina and Mecca in Western Arabia, but it was 1300 years before the Saudis conquered the area in 1926 and imposed their fundamentalist Wahhabi brand of Islam which had been invented in the 18th century. Before that the area (part of the Ottoman Empire, and then the Kingdom of Hijaz) was actually one of the more liberal parts of the Islamic world.

To me the most remarkable statistic in the study is that the region which was the very birthplace of Christianity, and where almost all Christians and nearly all the Early church Fathers lived for the first 500 to 1000 years, viz, the Middle East, Asia Minor and North Africa, is today the region which has fewer Christians as a proportion of the population than any otehr region in the world! yes it’s wonderful that the Church has spread all over the world and truly been embraced by significant millions of people in all regions and all countries, but let us not forget to help out our brothers in the Middle East, Asia Minor and North Africa, and pressure the governments there to allow true freedom of religion.

 

[jerry_joseph]

I just was reviewing NewAgeIslam…it comes out of the Muslilm Asian part of the world…and they are working very hard to restore Islam of reason as well as cooperation with other faiths and cultures.

Another thought came to my mind, Jerry_Joseph and Azur…

You both should check out www.hebrewcatholic.org…these are Jews who are finding their fulfillment in the Catholic Church. They are established now within the Archdiocese of St. Louis, and they have several Hebrew Catholic priests!

They have some series you can study…about Scripture and the New Israel—Christ’s Church and the kingdom within. Sacred Scriptures is given us by the people of Israel, including those of the New Testament, the Jewish apostles of Christ, and their followers. I am especially interested in how our ‘big brothers’, as John Paul II called them, are now experiencing the fullness of their faith as Hebrew Catholics, Hebrew the name for the faithful devout of God. Some say they experience a greater reality as Catholic than before without Christ.

Very good and informative

 

[Petergee]

But it is painful in the mind of every Christians that what is happening in European christian community. Europe, the continent that God chosen first to preach his Gospel,

What, the Holy land is in Europe now? I thought it was in asia.

A Continent which give birth to most of all saints, martyrs, popes…

When whole world rejected Christ , it is Europeans who embraced Christianity. Now when world is coming to Christ , Europeans are going away from Christ…

Not sure about most of the martyrs being Europeans either. It wasn’t so much that Asians and Africans 'rejected" Christ, but that oppressors killed off most of the Asian and African Christians, enslaved them, stole their children, and/or forced them to convert or emigrate.

 

[Petergee]

Most of these shifts seem to be more from population decline in Europe and population increases in the areas mentioned than it is from “mass conversions” as the title misleadingly suggests.

Nope. Most of Asia is not growing much in population, but the Christian population is rapidly increasing.

In sub-Saharan Africa yes the population is growing rapidly in many (not all) countries, but the Christian population is growing even faster.

 

[Auzer]

t is like Islam has been unable to help its original people transcend old ways…whereas Catholicism, universal Christianity right away advanced the welfare of women…

Well I would disagree here. Islam was revealed in Arabia at the time when women babies were buried alive. During such times Islam didn’t only give women right of life but also uplifted their status to an unimaginable extent , in the context of 7th century Arabia. Birth of a daughter was called “Rehmat” or a “Blessing” for the house. Women were given right in inheritance and they were made obligated to get (secular) education. All these commands were “explicit” without any ambiguity. Prophet himself married a business woman and also on many occasions-- consulted his wives to make some of the most critical decisions (Read the story of Treaty of Hudaibia). Women were given the right to divorce their husbands if they were unable to ‘satisfy’ their wives sexually. As I said earlier , when you look at this in historical context , NO religion has given THAT many rights to women…specially keep in mind that Islam was revealed in tribal Arabian culture that was the place most resistant to women empowerment.

To me, however, Saudi Arabia is akin to the Vatican because it is the birth place of Islam, so it is hard for us to separate the tribal customs from the religion…

Well Saudia has Mecca and Medina but I won’t count Saudi government as “Vatican” of Islam. Islam is now the global religion in the true and every sense of the world but we don’t have any “central” authority like in the case of Catholicism. Yes , Mecca is the most important city for all Muslims. The problem with Saudia is something. Saudia ruling family does not even represent tribes of Saudia Arabia. The family comes from just ONE , yes just ONE , tribe in the Saudi Arabia. This tribe is located around Riyadh , I guess. I’m forgetting the name of the tribe now. Laws like “women can’t drive” comes from the traditions of this tribe. According to this tribe, it is not considered appropriate for the women to ‘ride horse alone’ and from there …they also don’t allow women to “drive car alone” i.e take the ‘driver’ position …Its strange but true. Saudia in no way represents Islam. They represent just ONE of the many tribes in Saudi Arabia.

I would affirm that Turkish and Iranian Muslim women are well educated and advance…

I guess you never met educated Afghan girls here in US? Or even Pakistani ones…they are well educated and very advance too…Actually, I remember , in Pakistan …girls almost ALWAYS perform better than boys in education (University,College or School etc)

 

[jerry_joseph]

What, the Holy land is in Europe now? I thought it was in asia.

Europe is a blessed continient . It gave birth to most of martyrs, saints, Popes…Previous generations of europe was faithful christians. But this generation is athiest.

I admit Asia is important in salvation history. All Apostles of Jesus, Holy virgin Mary, Prophets all are asians. It is in the soil of asia, all events of salvation history happened. It is in the soil of Asia, christ born . It is in the soil of Asia that christ is crucified… It is in the soil of asia christ shed his blood for the salvation of humanity

I know that, there was a time in history, once Asia had more Christians than in Europe…Not only attacks from outside enimies (Paganism/Islam), but internal enemies such as heretics (Arianism, Docetism, Gnostism, Nezthorianism, Manicaenism) all caused the decline of asian christianity.

While asians tried to understand christ in the light of human wisdom, lot of false teachings and heresies originated. Europeans understood the christ in the light of faith. It is a great blessing to Europeans.

Once again God is rebuilding us. Asia will outnumber Europeans in christian population by 2030… God is great…It is European missionaries communities such as Jesuits, Carmelites, Benedictians and Salasians who are working for rebuilding christian community in Asia…

 

[jerry_joseph]

I guess you never met educated Afghan girls here in US? Or even Pakistani ones…they are well educated and very advance too…Actually, I remember , in Pakistan …girls almost ALWAYS perform better than boys in education (University,College or School etc)

I know… I am working as an immigrant worker Gulf. I am an Indian… I know lot of educated pakistanis. They are well educated and well mannered. My family doctor is a pakistani.They all have good attitude towards other religions, especially Roman Catholics. Most of them are educated from Roman Catholic educational institutions in Pakistan.

 

[KathleenGee]

I am simply saying Saudi Arabia is the origin of Islam…I can’t say Italy as the headquarters of the Catholic Church, but the Vatican…that’s all.

So by origins…well…Christianity came out of Israel but the Holy Spirit led SS Peter and Paul to the Eternal City…to the eventual state of the Vatican…knowing no particular country for our universal faith.

In context to this last statement…geographically I see Saudi Arabia as the beginnings of Islam, birthplace of Mohammed…so for orthodoxy I tend to see this region as that…

I know about the conflict between Sunis and Shias…the former based on ancestry founded on Mohammed.

 

[KathleenGee]

Auzer.

Yes…I did read for some time about Mohammed’s first wife, a business woman…although we read later that he had many wives and the last, a child…

A Catholic marriage is a sacrament, the man and woman freely consenting to remain with each other until death, to share their spiritual life in Christ together…a permanent bond. An annullment is allowed is there is any coercion of a forced relationship, psychological immaturity, one partner refusing to raise the children in Christ.

The Church allows marriage with another Christian who is not Catholic, and it requires more advising. There is also disparity of cult, meaning the faiths are too different from one another…such as Mormonism or Islam…that the Church would not be inclined to see the marriage happen…but there are cases where a Catholic does marry in such a situation.

Yes…you have to read about the treatment of women before Mohammed. But we see women in Iran being buried up to their necks…men, too…and stoned to death…

NewAgeIslam does address the role of women.

Arab philosophers flourished in the 7th century. But Islamic authorities were concerned that philosophy could eventually replace religion, and so efforts were made…but the study of math and medicine with the Arab philosophers did do great good for society…but the comment is there that they did so in spite of the repressive Islamic authorities of those times.

I pray for the Muslims…and those who are working to remove all extremism from their ranks, and for the plight of women…Afghanistan is listed as the worst…I wish our country could pick up all the women and children and take them to a safer and more humane place. Pakistan and parts throughout the Muslim world.

Likewise to be fair…I wish Western women would learn more about the Blessed Mother, her spiritual and active presence for those who call her Mother, and for all the women saints who served Christ and those in need, and lived holy lives…

Yes, I would like to wear the mantilla at Mass…but showed it to my friends at my new parish…they thought it beautiful but not inclined to wear at church…

 

[KathleenGee]

Auzer and Jerry_Joseph,

I ‘entered the site’ of NewAgeIslam today and the editor’s article today…you see it when you first enter…did indeed make direct reference to the Supremist Islamicists that are indeed invading our country. I have the suspicion that these ones orchestrating feigned or calculating lawsuits. These are the ones that should be deported.

The editor was saying what a great work it will be for moderate Muslims in dealing with these individuals…these are the ones we are reacting to…

 

[Petergee]

It is European missionaries communities such as Jesuits, Carmelites, Benedictians and Salasians who are working for rebuilding christian community in Asia…

Actually the Carmelites were founded in Asia too (Mt Carmel).

 

[Petergee]

Islam didn’t only give women right of life but also uplifted their status to an unimaginable extent… NO religion has given THAT many rights to women…specially keep in mind that Islam was revealed in tribal Arabian culture that was the place most resistant to women empowerment.
… Islam is now the global religion in the true and every sense of the world

These outrageously false assertions would be hilarious if they didn’t reflect such a sad situation for women and everybody else suffering under the iron fist of Islam and your willing acceptance of it.

 

[jerry_joseph]

Originally Posted by Auzer
Islam didn’t only give women right of life but also uplifted their status to an unimaginable extent… NO religion has given THAT many rights to women…specially keep in mind that Islam was revealed in tribal Arabian culture that was the place most resistant to women empowerment.
… Islam is now the global religion in the true and every sense of the world

Those countries granting freedom to women is in the name of modernism ,liberalism and secularism and not in the name of religion. But those countries which denys freedom of women is in the name of islam.Saudi Arabia is a good example. There women can go out for shopping or outside only in the presence of her husband or her relative. Women should mandatory wear Parda. Women is not allowed for driving vehicles.

Kindly note some rights given by women in muslim societies apart from other religious societies grants. You should change the word " Islam uplifted their status to an unimaginable extent… " to islam pulled down the status of women to an un imaginable pathetic condition,that a modern society can think.".

 

[KathleenGee]

Jerry_Joseph…I just am beginning to look at your link on the Syrian rite…when you speak of Asia having the Apostles…I know that St. Thomas went to India…but the other apostles went throughout the Middle East…I see Turkey as Middle East…

What countries do you define as Asian??

And Yes,…I have seen interviews on TV of educated Afghan women.

Problem with Europe was that it was suffering very much by ongoing barbarian invasions that plundered the remains of the Roman Empire for a good number of years…and it was the monks who maintained copies of Sacred Scripture…

I am finishing a fascinating book about how Catholicism laid the foundation for Western civilization and acknowledges the good Islam scholars did. So Europe started to settle down with the conversion of barbarians, some of whom did not fall into Arianism…multiple gods…

This prelate at the Vatican is acknowledging that young American Catholics are merging as among the most dynamic in the world…and after dealing with so much disinformation directed at the Catholic Church by other Christian denominations…and with the help of the internet…we are now not so much apologetical or on the defensive but changing our role and becoming more dynamic evangelizers ourselves…meaning we old people.

 

[jerry_joseph]

**St John Damacene , who was an administrator in the court of ummayid caliph wrote about the reality regarding islam in his book " Regarding Heretics". St John is ordained as Doctor of the church by Pope Leo XIII.

St John of Damasene (Known in Arabic Yahya ibin Mansur ibin Sarjun), Who was brought up and educated by the ummayid caliph in his court… John’s father Ibin Mansur was also an administrator and representative of christians in the court of caliph. Later the death of ibin mansur , John worked as administrator

. He mentions in his book" regarding heretics", he mentions that islam is not a correct teaching. He mentions that prophet Mohammed was under the guidance of an Arian Monk. But he did not mentions the name of that Arian Monk in his book.If we closely analyse the muslim teachings , we can find that muslims point of view of jesus is similar with Arian beliefs originated in Thrid Century.

orthodoxinfo.com/general/stjohn_islam.aspx

fathersofthechurch.com/2006/07/18/st-john-of-damascus-on-islam/

bombaxo.com/blog/?p=210

Christian scholars like theophanus (lived at the same period of mohammed) points out that the Arian monk was Sergius Bahira.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahira

**

 

[jerry_joseph]

Jerry_Joseph…I just am beginning to look at your link on the Syrian rite…when you speak of Asia having the Apostles…I know that St. Thomas went to India…but the other apostles went throughout the Middle East…I see Turkey as Middle East…

What countries do you define as Asian??

Land area known as modern Turkey was mentioned as Asia Minor in the bible . Not included in middle east and europe. In the book of revelation chapter 1 , it is beginning like this " to the seven churches of Asia". Here churches that mentioned as Asian, were in modern turkey. Earlier the language of that region was Greek.

Turks were came from central asia ,(modern Turkmenistan) in 12th century. They conquered asia minor and settled there. They imposed their language , Turkish to the people of asia minor (Same like what arabs did when they conquered northern africa - Now language of that region is Arabic)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_peoples

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine%E2%80%93Seljuq_Wars

 

[Petergee]

Jerry_Joseph…I just am beginning to look at your link on the Syrian rite…when you speak of Asia having the Apostles…I know that St. Thomas went to India…but the other apostles went throughout the Middle East…I see Turkey as Middle East…

What countries do you define as Asian??

Let’s not invent our own individual definitions of the continents eh? The standard geographical definition of the continents tells us that every country in the Middle East is in Asia except for Egypt which is in Africa (apart from the Sinai peninsula which is in Asia).

And Yes,…I have seen interviews on TV of educated Afghan women.

Problem with Europe was that it was suffering very much by ongoing barbarian invasions that plundered the remains of the Roman Empire for a good number of years…and it was the monks who maintained copies of Sacred Scripture…

I am finishing a fascinating book about how Catholicism laid the foundation for Western civilization and acknowledges the good Islam scholars did.

Vastly outweighed by the destruction done by Moslems. Before Islam, the Middle East had been the cradle of civilization for 3000 years, the richest, most liberal, educated and scientifically, artistically and philosophically advanced region in the world. With its conquest by the Moslem armies, all this came to an end within a couple of generations, and the Middle East has since largely remained a backwater.

 

[Auzer]

These outrageously false assertions would be hilarious if they didn’t reflect such a sad situation for women and everybody else suffering under the iron fist of Islam and your willing acceptance of it.

hah! Typical brainwashed American at it again. “Iron fist of Islam” LOL! Well, its STILL 1000x better than Christianity though. When Christianity played important role in society…West was the WORST possible place ever. Well good that Western disgracefully threw Christianity out and now , as they say in common language , no one even gives a sh!t about bible no more. Heck! I have many,many ‘Christian’ friends who never even read the bible

So blame EVERYTHING on Islam just because of your insecurity from it or what? I tried to explain it to you in my previous posts that how cultural,social issues play part in that but it seems that you are more interested in bashing Islam than actually learning something. Well the only “practicing” region in the world is Central Africa…They are Christian and apply Christianity to their society----and with no surprise the results are : They are MOST backward, MOST undereducated , MOST poor and MOST backward societies in the world. Just in Congo…100,000 women have been RAPED by “fellow Christians” …And If you think that I’m ********tting anything…Just google it.

Now see its very easy to bash ‘other’ without engaging in rational , constructive discussion. Through out my posts , I have tried to remain respectful towards your religion but alas ! you are hell bent to prove that Islam is responsible for everything bad happening in Muslim societies. Islam gave 10X MORE rights to women than Christianity. You know it , world know it and I know.

Kindly provide some verses (explicit verses are general rule) from the Bible which give women the right of property/inheritance, makes it compulsory for the women to get education and gives women right to divorce if she is not ‘satisfied’ with her husband sexually.

Before Islam, the Middle East had been the cradle of civilization for 3000 years, the richest, most liberal, educated and scientifically, artistically and philosophically advanced region in the world. With its conquest by the Moslem armies, all this came to an end within a couple of generations, and the Middle East has since largely remained a backwater.

wow! You apparently don’t have any idea about “middle east” …Also , from 7th century to 12th/13th century or so was the golden age of that region. Scientists worked , artists and philosophers flourished under Islam…This is 500 to 600 years ! By the way , I guess you forgot about the Galileo ? Catholic church punished him because of his theories. Why you think West threw Christianity out of society and became secular (without god)? Only then, science flourished. Under Christianity, West was in dark ages. Only thing pope could come up with were “crusades” huh . …

 

[KathleenGee]

I see the Middle East…the cradle of civilization as the center point of the earth…I see Asia to the east of it…that is where I am coming from…

I see Pakistan, India, China as Asia…yes Asia Minor…but that is Turkey…the far west of these eastern Asian countries…

Middle East…is the center, origin, and spirituality of humankind.

 

[Calgar]

I see the Middle East…the cradle of civilization as the center point of the earth…I see Asia to the east of it…that is where I am coming from…

I see Pakistan, India, China as Asia…yes Asia Minor…but that is Turkey…the far west of these eastern Asian countries…

Middle East…is the center, origin, and spirituality of humankind.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southwest_Asia_Service_Medal

You should let the miltary know about their mistake.