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NotWorthy
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I’m sorry, but this is where I get off this bus.
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ryanoneil
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Did you know that Amillennialism is most consistant with Catholic teaching, which means that the overwhelming majority of Christians throughout history have believed that the 1,000 years is the period of Christ’s rule in heaven and on earth through His Church?The tribulation begins this year, 2010, and will continue for 30 years, until early 2040; this is the first part of the tribulation, which includes the first six seals of the book of revelation, and the first six trumpets of the seventh seal.
The second part of the tribulation, which includes the return of Jesus, does not occur until hundreds of years later.
All these clever interpretations, which try to take the force from the Book of Revelation will be put to shame by the very events described in the book of Revelation and in the book of Daniel and in the eschatological discourse of Christ. The Book of Revelation describes the events of the tribulation, the same set of events described by Daniel, and later by Christ Himself. When these events unfold, it will be unmistakable.
This is not a clever interpretation. We’ve been in the millennium for a very long time. Which leaves this:
When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison. He will go out to deceive the nations at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. They invaded the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city. But fire came down from heaven and consumed them. The Devil who had led them astray was thrown into the pool of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Next I saw a large white throne and the one who was sitting on it. The earth and the sky fled from his presence and there was no place for them. (Rev 20:7-11)
No doubt the eschatological discourse of Christ will play out in the above verses, meaning history will repeat itself on a global scale. The point I’ve been trying to make is this: Daniel was fulfilled as proof that Revelation would be fulfilled. Chirst’s own words were fulfilled in the first century as a pre-figurement of his Second Coming at the end of time- Matthew 24-25 itself became future prophecy. Revelation 1-19 was fulfilled as proof that chapter 20-21 would be.
The Temples desecration by Antiochus (167 to 165 B.C) pre-figured it’s destruction in 70 A.D. With the dawning of the New Covenant, God cleared away the central symbol of the Old Covenant, the Temple. It was replaced by the Church, God’s new spiritual Temple, built with living stones of Christian believers. In this light, the devastation of the Temple and the judgment of Israel in A.D. 70 can be seen as an overture to Christ’s Second Coming in glory. In other worlds, the termination of the Old Covenant world and begining of the the New Covenant world prefigures the end of our visible world and the start of the new heavens and earth in eternity.
So, I don’t disagree with your last paragraph. But you need to realize that the first tribulation of the Church happened when she was at her most vulnerable- at her weakest when she was an infant. She could have easily been destroyed if not for the divine protection of the Lord. And the Lord will protect his Church at the final tribulation as well. Alleluia!
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Ron_Conte
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The question as to when the Millennium occurs (is it the entire time period from Christ’s Ascension to His Return, or is it a future period of time) is distinct from the question as to when the tribulation occurs. Augustine and Aquinas held that the Millennium is the entire time period from Christ’s Ascension to His Return, but they did not hold that the tribulation was the same time period.
Once the tribulation begins, it will be unmistakeable. Then many persons will claim that the end is soon. But Jesus says otherwise:
[Luke]
{21:9} And when you will have heard of battles and seditions, do not be terrified. These things must happen first. But the end is not so soon.”
My view is that the tribulation is divided into two parts, one part for this generation and the second part for the distant future. So even though I think that the tribulation begins this year, I don’t believe that Jesus is returning soon (not for this generation).
The first part of the tribulation is the first six Seals, and the first six Trumpets of the seventh Seal.
Once the tribulation begins, it will be unmistakeable. Then many persons will claim that the end is soon. But Jesus says otherwise:
[Luke]
{21:9} And when you will have heard of battles and seditions, do not be terrified. These things must happen first. But the end is not so soon.”
My view is that the tribulation is divided into two parts, one part for this generation and the second part for the distant future. So even though I think that the tribulation begins this year, I don’t believe that Jesus is returning soon (not for this generation).
The first part of the tribulation is the first six Seals, and the first six Trumpets of the seventh Seal.
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ryanoneil
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I’m not convinced there is anything special about our generation, but we are free to speculate. I don’t personally see a divided tribulation. I see seperate tribulations. The first was in the first century and it occured at the beginning of the millenium. It was unmistakable. The second will occur at the end of the millenium. Which is why (Rev 1-19) has been fulfilled and (Rev 20:7-15) is yet to be fulfilled.The question as to when the Millennium occurs (is it the entire time period from Christ’s Ascension to His Return, or is it a future period of time) is distinct from the question as to when the tribulation occurs. Augustine and Aquinas held that the Millennium is the entire time period from Christ’s Ascension to His Return, but they did not hold that the tribulation was the same time period.
Once the tribulation begins, it will be unmistakeable. Then many persons will claim that the end is soon. But Jesus says otherwise:
[Luke]
{21:9} And when you will have heard of battles and seditions, do not be terrified. These things must happen first. But the end is not so soon.”
My view is that the tribulation is divided into two parts, one part for this generation and the second part for the distant future. So even though I think that the tribulation begins this year, I don’t believe that Jesus is returning soon (not for this generation).
The first part of the tribulation is the first six Seals, and the first six Trumpets of the seventh Seal.
In the verses you cite Jesus was talking directly to the people standing in front of him, about the destruction of the Temple. He is talking about what would happen within the life time of his generation. If you want to attribute this to our generation, that is your perogative. Just realize that the first tribulation occured as a historical preview of the end of the world.
While some people were speaking about how the temple was adorned with costly stones and votive offerings, he said, “All that you see here–the days will come when there will not be left a stone upon another stone that will not be thrown down.” Then they asked him, “Teacher, when will this happen? And what sign will there be when all these things are about to happen?” (Luke 21:5-7)
In addition to false messiahs (Acts 5:33-39) and insurrections, the disciples would be persecuted in synagogues and throne into prison.
"Before all this happens, however, they will seize and persecute you, they will hand you over to the synagogues and to prisons, and they will have you led before kings and governors because of my name. (Luke 21:12)
This has all happened. Prisons (Acts 4:3; 5:18; 8:3; 12:4: 16:23) kings and governors (Acts 25:23-26:32) synagogues (Acts 6:9-10).
All of this was the tribulation leading up to the Temples destruction. When Jesus said **When you hear of wars and insurrections, do not be terrified; for such things must happen first, but it will not immediately be the end." ** He was talking about the 40 years between his ascension and the day of vengeance.
"When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, know that its desolation is at hand. Then those in Judea must flee to the mountains. Let those within the city escape from it, and let those in the countryside not enter the city, for these days are the time of punishment when all the scriptures are fulfilled. (Luke 21:20-22)
So, when you say that your view is that the tribulation is divided into two parts, one part for this generation and the second part for the distant future. I agree somewhat. Except I would say that the tribulation was for the generation Jesus was talking to. The Church has a final tribulation to go through, then Jesus will return.
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Ron_Conte
Guest
The events in Jesus’ eschatological discourse have not yet occurred. Of couse, in any generation there will be some sufferings for Christians, and these sufferings are in various ways comparable to the tribulation. But certain particular points indicate that this discourse had not yet been fulfilled:
{24:2} But he said to them in response: “Do you see all these things? Amen I say to you, there shall not remain here stone upon stone, which is not torn down.”
The Wailing Wall still stands, so this has not yet been fulfilled.
{24:9} Then they will hand you over to tribulation, and they will kill you. And you will be hated by all nations for the sake of my name.
There have been persecutions of Christians, but we have not yet been hated by all nations.
{24:14} And this Gospel of the kingdom shall be preached throughout the entire world, as a testimony to all nations. And then the consummation will occur.
The Gospel was not yet preached to the whole world in the first century, and even today there are many millions of persons who know little about Christianity (e.g. India, China)
{24:21} For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until the present, and such as will not be.
This did not happen in the first century; those sufferings in Jerusalem were not the worst sufferings ever: ‘and such as will not be’.
{24:29} And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
{24:30} And then the sign of the Son of man shall appear in heaven. And then all tribes of the earth shall mourn. And they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven, with great power and majesty.
{24:31} And he shall send out his Angels with a trumpet and a great voice. And they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the heights of the heavens, even to their furthest limits.
Obviously this has not happened yet.
And in Revelation, obviously numerous events have not happened yet:
{6:12} And when he had opened the sixth seal, I saw, and behold, a great earthquake occurred. And the sun became black, like a haircloth sack, and the entire moon became like blood.
{6:13} And the stars from heaven fell upon the earth, just as when a fig tree, shaken by a great wind, drops its immature figs.
{6:14} And heaven receded, like a scroll being rolled up. And every mountain, and the islands, were moved from their places.
{6:15} And the kings of the earth, and the rulers, and the military leaders, and the wealthy, and the strong, and everyone, servant and free, hid themselves in caves and among the rocks of the mountains.
{6:16} And they said to the mountains and the rocks: “Fall over us and hide us from the face of the One sitting upon the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb.
{6:17} For the great day of their wrath has arrived. And who will be able to stand?”
and
{7:3} saying: “Do no harm to the earth, nor to the sea, nor to the trees, until we seal the servants of our God on their foreheads.”
and
{8:7} And the first Angel sounded the trumpet. And there came hail and fire, mixed with blood; and it was cast down upon the earth. And a third part of the earth was burned, and a third part of the trees was entirely burned up, and all the green plants were burned.
{8:8} And the second Angel sounded the trumpet. And something like a great mountain, burning with fire, was cast down into the sea. And a third part of the sea became like blood.
{8:9} And a third part of the creatures that were living in the sea died. And a third part of the ships were destroyed.
and
{8:12} And the fourth Angel sounded the trumpet. And a third part of the sun, and a third part of the moon, and a third part of the stars were struck, in such a way that a third part of them was obscured. And a third part of the day did not shine, and similarly the night.
and
{9:5} And it was given to them that they would not kill them, but that they would torture them for five months. And their torture was like the torture of a scorpion, when he strikes a man.
and
{9:18} And one third part of men were slain by these three afflictions: by the fire and by the smoke and by the sulphur, which proceeded from their mouths.
and many other passages.
{24:2} But he said to them in response: “Do you see all these things? Amen I say to you, there shall not remain here stone upon stone, which is not torn down.”
The Wailing Wall still stands, so this has not yet been fulfilled.
{24:9} Then they will hand you over to tribulation, and they will kill you. And you will be hated by all nations for the sake of my name.
There have been persecutions of Christians, but we have not yet been hated by all nations.
{24:14} And this Gospel of the kingdom shall be preached throughout the entire world, as a testimony to all nations. And then the consummation will occur.
The Gospel was not yet preached to the whole world in the first century, and even today there are many millions of persons who know little about Christianity (e.g. India, China)
{24:21} For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until the present, and such as will not be.
This did not happen in the first century; those sufferings in Jerusalem were not the worst sufferings ever: ‘and such as will not be’.
{24:29} And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
{24:30} And then the sign of the Son of man shall appear in heaven. And then all tribes of the earth shall mourn. And they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven, with great power and majesty.
{24:31} And he shall send out his Angels with a trumpet and a great voice. And they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the heights of the heavens, even to their furthest limits.
Obviously this has not happened yet.
And in Revelation, obviously numerous events have not happened yet:
{6:12} And when he had opened the sixth seal, I saw, and behold, a great earthquake occurred. And the sun became black, like a haircloth sack, and the entire moon became like blood.
{6:13} And the stars from heaven fell upon the earth, just as when a fig tree, shaken by a great wind, drops its immature figs.
{6:14} And heaven receded, like a scroll being rolled up. And every mountain, and the islands, were moved from their places.
{6:15} And the kings of the earth, and the rulers, and the military leaders, and the wealthy, and the strong, and everyone, servant and free, hid themselves in caves and among the rocks of the mountains.
{6:16} And they said to the mountains and the rocks: “Fall over us and hide us from the face of the One sitting upon the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb.
{6:17} For the great day of their wrath has arrived. And who will be able to stand?”
and
{7:3} saying: “Do no harm to the earth, nor to the sea, nor to the trees, until we seal the servants of our God on their foreheads.”
and
{8:7} And the first Angel sounded the trumpet. And there came hail and fire, mixed with blood; and it was cast down upon the earth. And a third part of the earth was burned, and a third part of the trees was entirely burned up, and all the green plants were burned.
{8:8} And the second Angel sounded the trumpet. And something like a great mountain, burning with fire, was cast down into the sea. And a third part of the sea became like blood.
{8:9} And a third part of the creatures that were living in the sea died. And a third part of the ships were destroyed.
and
{8:12} And the fourth Angel sounded the trumpet. And a third part of the sun, and a third part of the moon, and a third part of the stars were struck, in such a way that a third part of them was obscured. And a third part of the day did not shine, and similarly the night.
and
{9:5} And it was given to them that they would not kill them, but that they would torture them for five months. And their torture was like the torture of a scorpion, when he strikes a man.
and
{9:18} And one third part of men were slain by these three afflictions: by the fire and by the smoke and by the sulphur, which proceeded from their mouths.
and many other passages.
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ryanoneil
Guest
Jesus was talking to his generation (Mt 24:34).
Jesus left the temple area and was going away, when his disciples approached him to point out the temple buildings. (Mt 24:1)
When they persecute you in one town, flee to another. Amen, I say to you, you will not finish the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes. (Mt 10:23)
"If the world hates you, realize that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, the world would love its own; but because you do not belong to the world, and I have chosen you out of the world, the world hates you. (John 15:18-19)
They will expel you from the synagogues; in fact, the hour is coming when everyone who kills you will think he is offering worship to God. (John 16:2)
It is another way of saying the unbelievers of Israel and Rome.
**First, I give thanks to my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is heralded throughout the world. (Rom 1:8)
because of the hope reserved for you in heaven. Of this you have already heard through the word of truth, the gospel, that has come to you. Just as in the whole world it is bearing fruit and growing, so also among you, from the day you heard it and came to know the grace of God in truth (Col 1:6)
provided that you persevere in the faith, firmly grounded, stable, and not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, am a minister. (Col 1:23)**
Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place. (Mt 24:34)
Christ’s parousia (coming) in the first century was His “visitaion” of destruction upon Jerusalem. This is a direct sign that points to his Second Advent (coming) at the end of time as Judge of the living and the dead. The fulfillment of prophecy itself became prophesy.
Make that distinction if you wish, but the Western Wall is part of the retaining perimeter wall of the platform of the Temple. Not one of the Temple buildings that they were talking about.The events in Jesus’ eschatological discourse have not yet occurred. Of couse, in any generation there will be some sufferings for Christians, and these sufferings are in various ways comparable to the tribulation. But certain particular points indicate that this discourse had not yet been fulfilled:
{24:2} But he said to them in response: “Do you see all these things? Amen I say to you, there shall not remain here stone upon stone, which is not torn down.”
The Wailing Wall still stands, so this has not yet been fulfilled.
Jesus left the temple area and was going away, when his disciples approached him to point out the temple buildings. (Mt 24:1)
{24:9} Then they will hand you over to tribulation, and they will kill you. And you will be hated by all nations for the sake of my name.
Are you really saying Jesus was talking past the people that were listening to him?There have been persecutions of Christians, but we have not yet been hated by all nations.
When they persecute you in one town, flee to another. Amen, I say to you, you will not finish the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes. (Mt 10:23)
"If the world hates you, realize that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, the world would love its own; but because you do not belong to the world, and I have chosen you out of the world, the world hates you. (John 15:18-19)
They will expel you from the synagogues; in fact, the hour is coming when everyone who kills you will think he is offering worship to God. (John 16:2)
It is another way of saying the unbelievers of Israel and Rome.
{24:14} And this Gospel of the kingdom shall be preached throughout the entire world, as a testimony to all nations. And then the consummation will occur.
He is talking about Christianity’s presence in the Roman Empire which was the known world.The Gospel was not yet preached to the whole world in the first century, and even today there are many millions of persons who know little about Christianity (e.g. India, China)
**First, I give thanks to my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is heralded throughout the world. (Rom 1:8)
because of the hope reserved for you in heaven. Of this you have already heard through the word of truth, the gospel, that has come to you. Just as in the whole world it is bearing fruit and growing, so also among you, from the day you heard it and came to know the grace of God in truth (Col 1:6)
provided that you persevere in the faith, firmly grounded, stable, and not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, am a minister. (Col 1:23)**
{24:21} For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until the present, and such as will not be.
Jesus is recalling the desolating sacrilege of the Temple by Antiochus IV and projecting it forward to announce the Temple’s ultimate destruction. The Temple was a miniature replica of the world.This did not happen in the first century; those sufferings in Jerusalem were not the worst sufferings ever: ‘and such as will not be’.
Depictions of heavenly chaos are used by the prophets to predict the downfall of kingdoms (Is 13:9-10; 34:4; Ezek 32:7-8; Joel 2:10, 31: Amos 8:9). Jesus redirects this language to Jerusalem and Old Covenant Israel that will be devastated for corrupting itself like the pagans and rejecting Jesus.{24:29} And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
This is an allusion to Dan 7:13-14 when Jesus ascends to heaven and is given his kingdom and dominion. The visible manifestation of this is Jesus’ victory over his enemies when Jerusalem was judged and the Old Covenant was terminated.{24:30} And then the sign of the Son of man shall appear in heaven. And then all tribes of the earth shall mourn. And they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven, with great power and majesty.
This talking about the restoration of Israel being saved from their exile among pagan nations. God is gathering his faithful into the Church, rescuing the righteous from the collapsing Old Covenant and also rescuing the Gentiles from paganism.{24:31} And he shall send out his Angels with a trumpet and a great voice. And they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the heights of the heavens, even to their furthest limits.
Yes it has! You just don’t recognize it yet. Jesus is addressing the people who were directly listening to him.Obviously this has not happened yet.
Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place. (Mt 24:34)
Christ’s parousia (coming) in the first century was His “visitaion” of destruction upon Jerusalem. This is a direct sign that points to his Second Advent (coming) at the end of time as Judge of the living and the dead. The fulfillment of prophecy itself became prophesy.
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ryanoneil
Guest
Like I said, this is apocalyptic language which symbolically represents spiritual and political upheavals within history. One example is:And in Revelation, obviously numerous events have not happened yet:
{6:12} And when he had opened the sixth seal, I saw, and behold, a great earthquake occurred. And the sun became black, like a haircloth sack, and the entire moon became like blood.
{6:13} And the stars from heaven fell upon the earth, just as when a fig tree, shaken by a great wind, drops its immature figs.
{6:14} And heaven receded, like a scroll being rolled up. And every mountain, and the islands, were moved from their places.
{6:15} And the kings of the earth, and the rulers, and the military leaders, and the wealthy, and the strong, and everyone, servant and free, hid themselves in caves and among the rocks of the mountains.
{6:16} And they said to the mountains and the rocks: “Fall over us and hide us from the face of the One sitting upon the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb.
{6:17} For the great day of their wrath has arrived. And who will be able to stand?”
Howl, for the day of the LORD is near; as destruction from the Almighty it comes. Therefore all hands fall helpless, the bows of the young men fall from their hands. Every man’s heart melts in terror. Pangs and sorrows take hold of them, like a woman in labor they writhe; They look aghast at each other, their faces aflame. Lo, the day of the LORD comes, cruel, with wrath and burning anger; To lay waste the land and destroy the sinners within it! The stars and constellations of the heavens send forth no light; The sun is dark when it rises, and the light of the moon does not shine. Thus I will punish the world for its evil and the wicked for their guilt. I will put an end to the pride of the arrogant, the insolence of tyrants I will humble. (Is 13:6-11)
This refers to the overthrow of Babylon. It happened. Did the cosmic things literally happening? No! It is symbolic. Then after it happened it became future prophecy.
This doesn’t rule out a literal fulfullment of Revelation in the future, but the woes unleashed by the seven seals have already symbolically happened. They are the same woes that Jesus warned would seize the world just before the Roman conquest of Jerusalem.
{7:3} saying: “Do no harm to the earth, nor to the sea, nor to the trees, until we seal the servants of our God on their foreheads.”
{8:7} And the first Angel sounded the trumpet. And there came hail and fire, mixed with blood; and it was cast down upon the earth. And a third part of the earth was burned, and a third part of the trees was entirely burned up, and all the green plants were burned.
{8:8} And the second Angel sounded the trumpet. And something like a great mountain, burning with fire, was cast down into the sea. And a third part of the sea became like blood.
{8:9} And a third part of the creatures that were living in the sea died. And a third part of the ships were destroyed.
The first four trumpets are modeled on the Exodus plagues that ravaged Egypt. Here they are applied to Jerusalem which is where the Lord was crucified.{8:12} And the fourth Angel sounded the trumpet. And a third part of the sun, and a third part of the moon, and a third part of the stars were struck, in such a way that a third part of them was obscured. And a third part of the day did not shine, and similarly the night.
Their corpses will lie in the main street of the great city, which has the symbolic names “Sodom” and “Egypt,” where indeed their Lord was crucified. (Rev 11:8)
The Old Testament prophets used the same language to describe Jerusalem.
But among Jerusalem’s prophets I saw deeds still more shocking: Adultery, living in lies, siding with the wicked, so that no one turns from evil; To me they are all like Sodom, its citizens like Gomorrah. Therefore, thus says the LORD of hosts against the prophets: Behold, I will give them wormwood to eat, and poison to drink; For from Jerusalem’s prophets ungodliness has gone forth into the whole land. (Jer 23:14-15)
I will leave it to them to judge, and they will judge you by their own ordinances. I will let loose my jealousy against you, so that they shall deal with you in fury, cutting off your nose and ears; and what is left of you shall fall by the sword. They shall take away your sons and daughters, and what is left of you shall be devoured by fire. They shall strip off your clothes and seize your splendid ornaments. I will put an end to your lewdness and to the harlotry you began in Egypt; you shall no longer look toward it, nor shall you remember Egypt again. For thus says the Lord GOD: I am now handing you over to those whom you hate, to those who fill you with disgust. They shall deal with you in hatred, seizing all that you have worked for and leaving you stark naked, so that your indecent nakedness is exposed. Your lewdness and harlotry have brought these things upon you, because you played the harlot with the nations by defiling yourself with their idols. (Ezek 23:25-30)
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