Study the Qur’an?

[CEDRIK]

I named my post after an article by Daniel Pipes,in which he basically argues against reading the Qur’an in order to understand certain current events.You can find that article at the following link:

danielpipes.org/1461/study-the-koran

The article also features links to others, written by people who disagree with Dr. Pipes. I do not claim to be an expert, so I will not weigh in one way or the other, but what I can say right off the bat from personal experience, is that reading the Qur’an alone can be pretty misleading.

I converted to Islam after reading a French translation of Islam’s holy book, thought I had it all figured out, and it wasn’t until after I learned enough Arabic to delve into books of exegesis and jurisprudence that I started to discover some very unsettling truths.

A friend of mine is currently reading the Qur’an, and in a conversation we recently had, I quoted one of its verses and explained it to him. He had read it but had no idea of what it meant. As a matter of fact, even one of Muhammad’s companions got it wrong at first.

That verse reads: “They (Jews and Christians) took their rabbis and their monks to be their lords besides Allah.” (Surah 9, verse 31)

It is reported that upon hearing that verse, one of Muhammad’s disciples, who was formerly a Christian, objected that Jews and Christians do not worship rabbis and monks. Muhammad answered, saying that rabbis and monks allow things that were declared unlawful by God, and forbid others that were declared lawful, and that by obeying them, Jews and Christians are indeed worshipping them.

This example alone amply proves how one can read the Qur’an and miss its point completely !

That said, I wouldn’t go as far as advising against reading it .Depending on what your objectives are, and also on the amount of time, money and energy you’re willing to put into it, I would in fact recommend some additional reading.

To be continued…

 

[eatpraylove11]

Cedrick, I had similar experiences when I was younger as well.

 

[arthra]

I would urge people to study the Qur’an and appreciate the historical context of the verses… also in learning more Arabic you can appreciate sister languages such as Hebrew…

Louis Massignon was a Catholic scholar who encouraged Catholics and others to learn more about Islam … He did much to encourage greater understanding in the west of Islam.

Read

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Massignon

Another important scholar who I think understood Islam was Henry Corbin…He had a Christian background and studied in the Sorbonne…

Read more:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Corbin

I’ve never been interested in becoming a Muslim but as a Baha’i it’s important I think to learn more about Islam as a religion becomes most all the early followers of the Bab and Baha’u’llah were Muslims and there are many references to Islam in our Writings. We Baha’is accept the Qur’an as an earlier dispensation in some ways like Christians accept the Old Testament as an inspired revelation.

 

[gmcbroom]

I disagree respectfully. I think those new to catholism and christianity in general should avoid the Koran. Primarily because it is written as polemically opposite the church. It removes the value of baptism, holy orders, the Eucharist , and creates in its wake confusion for christians not strong in their faith. Remember the Holy Bible is the inspired word of God in the words of men. This is part of our Christian faith. However, to muslims their Holy Koran is the word of God period. Now, those christians who are strong in their faith formation and teachings of the church could try to read it get to know the muslim mindset and if they do they’ll quickly, see some of contradictions the Koran gets wrong about christianity one is the view that the christian trinity is God the Father, Mary, and Jesus,is one such example, the other is the denial of Jesus’s death and resurrection. However, anyone weak or unsure in the faith should not read book.

 

[CEDRIK]

Cedrick, I had similar experiences when I was younger as well.

Did you study Arabic ?

 

[CEDRIK]

I disagree respectfully. I think those new to catholism and christianity in general should avoid the Koran. Primarily because it is written as polemically opposite the church. It removes the value of baptism, holy orders, the Eucharist , and creates in its wake confusion for christians not strong in their faith. Remember the Holy Bible is the inspired word of God in the words of men. This is part of our Christian faith. However, to muslims their Holy Koran is the word of God period. Now, those christians who are strong in their faith formation and teachings of the church could try to read it get to know the muslim mindset and if they do they’ll quickly, see some of contradictions the Koran gets wrong about christianity one is the view that the christian trinity is God the Father, Mary, and Jesus,is one such example, the other is the denial of Jesus’s death and resurrection. However, anyone weak or unsure in the faith should not read book.

I don’t know if you took the time to read Dr. Pipes’ article, but the question wasn’t whether or not a Christian should read the Qur’an. It was actually whether anyone who wants to understand current events connected to Islam should.

You are raising a completely different issue. Ironically enough, your advice though more tactfully worded, reminds me of things I heard time and again when I was a Muslim, e.g. Sunnis advising me against reading philosophy or books written by Shiites, Sufis warning me against Salafis, Salafis warning me against jihadists and so on and so forth.

The thing is, since I’ve always been very inquisitive,when I was given this kind of advice, I would usually do just the opposite.

Wouldn’t it be better to tell Christians interested in reading the Qur’an to go ahead, regardless of their level of faith and knowledge, and let them know that if it raises questions, they should feel free to ask those questions without fear of being judged?

 

[Contarini]

I don’t know if you took the time to read Dr. Pipes’ article, but the question wasn’t whether or not a Christian should read the Qur’an. It was actually whether anyone who wants to understand current events connected to Islam should.

You are raising a completely different issue. Ironically enough, your advice though more tactfully worded, reminds me of things I heard time and again when I was a Muslim, e.g. Sunnis advising me against reading philosophy or books written by Shiites, Sufis warning me against Salafis, Salafis warning me against jihadists and so on and so forth.

The thing is, since I’ve always been very inquisitive,when I was given this kind of advice, I would usually do just the opposite.

Wouldn’t it be better to tell Christians interested in reading the Qur’an to go ahead, regardless of their level of faith and knowledge, and let them know that if it raises questions, they should feel free to ask those questions without fear of being judged?

Yes. It always seems funny to me when group X gains converts from group Y because members of group Y were inquisitive and sought out “forbidden” writings of group X, and then group X turns around and says to its young, “Don’t read the dangerous writings of group Y–you might convert!”

I grew up in a (conservative Protestant) religious environment where I was told not to read “bad books.” I’m pretty allergic to that kind of talk no matter where it’s coming from!

Edwin

 

[mamlukman]

An excellent question, and excellent responses so far.

First, let me explain who I am. I have studied Islam for 50 years. I studied Arabic at various universities for nine years. I have an MA and almost a PhD (no dissertation) in Islamic Studies. I taught at universities in Egypt and Saudi Arabia for seven years. My friends include a variety of people who have dealt with Islam in various ways–from tracking Bin Laden at the CIA to writing the Pulitzer Prize winning book “The Looming Towers” to a Shi’i scholar and Imam.

I would always encourage anyone to learn more–with a caution. First, if you begin to study Islam and the Qur’an, understand that there is a degree of truth in any religion, including Islam. Just as extremely smart people have analyzed Christianity for 2,000 years, extremely smart people have analyzed Islam for 1400 years. There are many things to learn from Islam–not beliefs, but ways of looking at religion, and how religions develop. For example, both Islam and Christianity had to deal with issues of free will and “Can a serious sinner be a real Muslim (or Christian)?”

As for Daniel Pipes (and Robert Spencer), be aware that these people are not considered to be scholars. They are advocates for a certain position–against Islam. What they say is not necessarily wrong, but it is a one-sided view. But if you go to the Pipes article, he does give a very good bibliography, which is balanced.

Now the caution. Since 9/11 a lot of people (perhaps this includes you, Cedrik?) who knew nothing about Islam became interested in the subject, began reading the Qur’an, were astonished to find beautiful poetic verses there and a lot of things that seemed to make sense, and converted. About 30,000 British have converted–75% women. Many have been Catholics, even some nuns and at least one priest. A good example is Myriam/Emlie Francois-Cerrah (one reason I’m using her is because she also originally read the Qur’an in French. She is a former actress (the girl in the 1995 “Sense and Sensibility”), obviously very bright (a PhD candidate at Oxford), and beautiful. She is all over Youtube. Here is her conversion testimony: youtube.com/watch?v=-JlkisV72os

I will continue in another post so this isn’t too long…

 

[mamlukman]

Be aware that in the last 20-30 years Muslims have become very good at propaganda (their word – “da’wa” in Arabic). Today 2nd and 3rd generation Indians and Pakistanis who speak perfect English and are well educated are their spokesmen. Shabir Ally is a good example: an Indian Canadian who is a native speaker of English and has a degree in Biblical Studies and a PhD in Islamic Studies. He–and others like him–can quote the Bible for hours at a time, giving chapter and verse. The Muslim da’wa (propaganda) machine is efficient, effective, well funded, and everywhere from the local mosque to large international organizations. These are smart, sophisticated people. Their main prize is (I’m not being racist here, I’m simply giving facts–if anything, they are the racists) a young, white, European, female convert. 75% of Western converts are women; almost all are between 15-24. They are professionals at finding the weaknesses in Christianity. Watching them debate or talk to Christians is disturbing, because usually the Christians don’t expect such a sophisticated or knowledgeable opponent. For the Muslims, it’s like shooting fish in a barrel. Don’t be a fish.

Here are some examples of fish:
youtube.com/watch?v=eSE8HrFu7Dc Admad Deedat (a South African, now dead; he has been replaced by another South African, Zakir Naik)

youtube.com/watch?v=elU3_koqAWM This is mental rape, and almost too sad to watch. The speaker is Yusuf Estes (a former Evangelical minister who converted to Islam; he not only knows what to say, he knows how to say it)

You should be aware that if you discuss Islam with Muslims they will ALWAYS be trying to convert you. They will not necessarily give you the whole truth–just what they think you want to hear. There are several ex-Muslim web sites, and in the blogs there are many converts to Islam who explain what happened to them. exmna.org for example.

Qur’an translations. It’s best to read two translations simultaneously. One should be a scholarly translation by a Western scholar (Arberry, Jones, Dawood); another could be a Muslim translation (Pickhall–yes, a convert–or Yusuf Ali. As someone correctly said above, it’s not straightforward. Some is very poetic. Some is very legalistic. Some is mundane–the chapter about Muhammad not wanting dinner guests to arrive early or stay late (!). Some is incomprehensible to everyone. Just be aware that there’s a lot going on beneath the surface.

Other books. Someone above gave some good titles. Read Wikipedia articles or books by Western scholars. Bernard Lewis is THE best of living scholars of the Middle East. Do NOT get Muslim books from your Muslim friends or the local mosque–this is propaganda designed to convert you.

more coming…

 

[mamlukman]

There are all sorts of scholarly materials available, from the Encyclopedia of the Qur’an to the Cambridge History of Islam (6 volumes). Some will only be in university libraries.

If you come across things that make you question Christianity, immediately investigate the issue. There is ALWAYS a refutation. There are a host of videos and web sites, although very few are Catholic. Most are Evangelical, but in this context it doesn’t matter–they are thorough and accurate.

Here are some suggestions:

David Wood (a lot of very funny, accurate videos on Youtube. I would start there. He also has a Facebook page “David Wood; the Bronx” and a web site acts17.net --go to the Islam menu. and answeringmuslims.com )
David is a former atheist turned Evangelical. But he has a PhD in religion.

answering-islam.org An Evangelical site, but with highly detailed and accurate information on Islam.

catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/islam/ the Catholic counterpart; sadly, not nearly as good as the Evangelical site

wikiislam.net/wiki/WikiIslam a site that seems to draw on many groups–ex-Muslims, Muslims, scholars, etc. Formerly associated with Evangelicals, it seems to be independent now.

gatestoneinstitute.org UK–exec. director is an Iranian; board seems balanced between right and left. Seems to be promoting “moderate” or “reformed” Islam

answeringmuslims.com UK–Maajid Nawaz, an Egyptian and former Islamic extremist. He is very articulate, and since he’s been on the other side, he knows what’s going on. He endorses a form of “moderate” or “reformed” Islam.

There are many others. A final word of warning: if you delve into the murky world of Muslims propaganda, you will find a couple common tactics:

1. what I call the “fantasy Islam” (example: Myriam/Emilie Francois-Cerrah) In this case, the speaker creates an individualized Islam where they chose only the parts of Islam they like and reject the rest. This is common and all too easy–since there is no central authority in Islam, and since Islam has been in factions since the death of Muhammad, you find all sorts of groups saying “We are the true Muslims,” and other groups saying, “No, WE are the true Muslims.” So someone can present you with their idealized version of Islam, and you will be impressed by how wonderful it is. Be aware you’re only seeing the tip of the iceberg.
2. If you challenge something in Islam (the treatment of women, Jihad, enslaving female captives, etc.) the reply is almost always “Well, this verse applied to a specific situation in 633 (or whatever) and doesn’t mean anything today.” Ask yourself if this makes sense in an inspired book that is supposedly uncreated; are there any Gospel stories that relate only to Caesarea in 31 AD? Does it make sense that so many verses in the Qur’an seem to be there only to justify some action of Muhammad (for example, where did the veil come from? Well, Muhammad was visiting his adopted son, and he saw his adopted son’s wife nude, and he liked what he saw; the adopted son divorced his wife so Muhammad could marry her, and Muhammad (“the Qur’an”) decided it would be a good idea to veil women from now on).

Happy to answer questions.

 

[Contarini]

An excellent question, and excellent responses so far.

First, let me explain who I am. I have studied Islam for 50 years. I studied Arabic at various universities for nine years. I have an MA and almost a PhD (no dissertation) in Islamic Studies. I taught at universities in Egypt and Saudi Arabia for seven years. My friends include a variety of people who have dealt with Islam in various ways–from tracking Bin Laden at the CIA to writing the Pulitzer Prize winning book “The Looming Towers” to a Shi’i scholar and Imam.

I would always encourage anyone to learn more–with a caution. First, if you begin to study Islam and the Qur’an, understand that there is a degree of truth in any religion, including Islam. Just as extremely smart people have analyzed Christianity for 2,000 years, extremely smart people have analyzed Islam for 1400 years. There are many things to learn from Islam–not beliefs, but ways of looking at religion, and how religions develop. For example, both Islam and Christianity had to deal with issues of free will and “Can a serious sinner be a real Muslim (or Christian)?”

As for Daniel Pipes (and Robert Spencer), be aware that these people are not considered to be scholars. They are advocates for a certain position–against Islam. What they say is not necessarily wrong, but it is a one-sided view. But if you go to the Pipes article, he does give a very good bibliography, which is balanced.

Now the caution. Since 9/11 a lot of people (perhaps this includes you, Cedrik?) who knew nothing about Islam became interested in the subject, began reading the Qur’an, were astonished to find beautiful poetic verses there and a lot of things that seemed to make sense, and converted. About 30,000 British have converted–75% women. Many have been Catholics, even some nuns and at least one priest. A good example is Myriam/Emlie Francois-Cerrah (one reason I’m using her is because she also originally read the Qur’an in French. She is a former actress (the girl in the 1995 “Sense and Sensibility”), obviously very bright (a PhD candidate at Oxford), and beautiful. She is all over Youtube. Here is her conversion testimony: youtube.com/watch?v=-JlkisV72os

I will continue in another post so this isn’t too long…

Marianne became Muslim?

Oh, Marianne, didn’t you learn anything from your experience with Wickham?

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Oops–that should have been Willoughby. Got my smooth Austen scoundrels beginning in W mixed up!

 

[Reuben_J]

You should be aware that if you discuss Islam with Muslims they will ALWAYS be trying to convert you. They will not necessarily give you the whole truth–just what they think you want to hear.

Thank you very much for the very excellent post. Very informative indeed.

I have some experience discussing religions with Muslims in real life. A few of them whom I can call friends. I have lost interest in such discussion now perhaps due to the much ground has been covered; there is probably nothing new left. But also the inability of Muslims to acknowledge your belief even if it is for the sake of the discussion that getting into it has become a useless exercise.

There is also the sense that they are insincere by lying to you about their belief in order to make it sound palatable to the non-Muslims. So I can understand what you are saying there.

So I would agree with your above statement though we Christians can fall into that temptation too, to wanting to influence our listeners into our faith.

But the Muslims take this into a new level - that the non-Muslims to them are all fair game to be converted. Sometimes the means employed to achieve that can be outright crude as long as the end result is accomplished, for example through marriage where a spouse is to be converted or embraced Islam.

Their motivation to convert others is stronger than in Christianity since their idea of getting to heaven depends on the balance of merit and demerits of their work in their lives. Getting one to convert would add up to that merit.

Lying and deceiving in Islam for the greater sake of goodness or for Allah is often denied by Muslims but it is true that they see the world as divided into two spheres, them and others. Thus their treatment of the others may differ as to how they do to their own.

God bless.

Reuben

 

[hasantas]

1. If you challenge something in Islam (the treatment of women, Jihad, enslaving female captives, etc.) the reply is almost always “Well, this verse applied to a specific situation in 633 (or whatever) and doesn’t mean anything today.” Ask yourself if this makes sense in an inspired book that is supposedly uncreated; are there any Gospel stories that relate only to Caesarea in 31 AD? Does it make sense that so many verses in the Qur’an seem to be there only to justify some action of Muhammad (for example, where did the veil come from? Well, Muhammad was visiting his adopted son, and he saw his adopted son’s wife nude, and he liked what he saw; the adopted son divorced his wife so Muhammad could marry her, and Muhammad (“the Qur’an”) decided it would be a good idea to veil women from now on).

Happy to answer questions.

I want to answer to your aspersion for prophet Muhammed (pbuh). Zaynab was daughter of aunt’s of Muhammed. Muhammed saw Zaynab from birth to marriage age. Before Islam women can wear just what they liked. So Muhammed should saw Zaynab without covered many times because She was His aunt’s daughter. Zaynab did not want to marry Zayd but prophet Muhammed urge Zaynab to marry Zayd. If Muhammed wished so much He could do it very easily as initially. That is a very improper aspersion to the seal and greatest of the prophets. Heavens and worlds blench from that ugly aspersion.

Zayd was slave of Hadja and Muhammed set free Zayd later and adopted. Arabs thought as custom that some cannot marry his adopted son’s wife. That was a wrong custom and Allah to correct that ordered that marriage.

Zaynab was not equivalent and suitable for Zayd(as beauty, religious, family etc). Zaynab was fine. Zayd many times complain about Zaynab and also Zaynab mean that She was excellent but prophet advised them to save marriage. Later those verses revealed.

A prophet is a humanbeing. We can misinterpret any humanbeing behaviours. As a human prophets can make mistakes but never sin. If a prophet incline to a sin then Allah prevent that. But if you do not think that Muhammed was a prophet that is is your issue and choice. You can make any aspersion as you wish. We(Muslims) are not happy with that but we advise you to be more responsible. You can reject Muhammed and Islam but you should do that in a fair way.

 

[Reuben_J]

I want to answer to your aspersion for prophet Muhammed (pbuh). Zaynab was daughter of aunt’s of Muhammed. Muhammed saw Zaynab from birth to marriage age. Before Islam women can wear just what they liked. So Muhammed should saw Zaynab without covered many times because She was His aunt’s daughter.

At best this is mere assumption. Muhammad might be familiar with Zaynab, she being his cousin. But men were often not at home or engaged in wars.

In any case, the attraction was after Zaynab married Zayd. In other word, she was full grown woman now, married and sexually desirable. It was evidence that Zaynab desired Muhammad as you said, she did not want to marry Zayd. The element of seduction could not be discounted here. If you admit that Muhammad was merely a human being, and as one, then what was there to prevent him from being sexually attracted to Zaynab?

If Muhammad saw her unclothed now, it would not be the same thing as seeing her when she was that young child relative.

Zaynab did not want to marry Zayd but prophet Muhammed urge Zaynab to marry Zayd. If Muhammed wished so much He could do it very easily as initially.

That would make Zaynab, Zayd’s wife. And Zayd was Muhammad’s adopted son. Before Muhammad proclaimed that a man could marry an adopted son’s wife, thus freeing him to marry Zaynab, there was very little to distinguish an adopted son from a blood one.

The minimum here is that Muhammad married his adopted son’s wife. In the Semitic culture, and Arabs were ones, close relatives marriage were often frowned on. John the Baptist reprimanded Kind Herod for marrying his brother’s wife.

 

[Mount_Carmel]

CEDRIK - By all means study the Qur’an, but also study its historicity and context, in the full light of academic, rational and logical rigour. God has given us brains with which to think, as well as our emotions.

I would like some others have, caution being drawn into its many claims, that can be easily refuted if only you go to reliable and rational sources.

A daily prayer for ‘discernment’ is a good thing to shield yourself with.

 

[hasantas]

At best this is mere assumption. Muhammad might be familiar with Zaynab, she being his cousin. But men were often not at home or engaged in wars.

In any case, the attraction was after Zaynab married Zayd. In other word, she was full grown woman now, married and sexually desirable. It was evidence that Zaynab desired Muhammad as you said, she did not want to marry Zayd. The element of seduction could not be discounted here. If you admit that Muhammad was merely a human being, and as one, then what was there to prevent him from being sexually attracted to Zaynab?

If Muhammad saw her unclothed now, it would not be the same thing as seeing her when she was that young child relative.

That would make Zaynab, Zayd’s wife. And Zayd was Muhammad’s adopted son. Before Muhammad proclaimed that a man could marry an adopted son’s wife, thus freeing him to marry Zaynab, there was very little to distinguish an adopted son from a blood one.

The minimum here is that Muhammad married his adopted son’s wife. In the Semitic culture, and Arabs were ones, close relatives marriage were often frowned on. John the Baptist reprimanded Kind Herod for marrying his brother’s wife.

There is no an evidence that Muhammed saw Zaynab unclothed. That is a faked up assumption. I tried to explain that such a thing cannot be a reason of seduction for a prophet. Muhammed cannot do anything which Allah do not allow. Muhammed was a model for Muslims. If Muslims had seen bad examples from Muhammed they would never follow Him. Sahabas investigate prophet Muhammed in every case, night and day.

Once Zulayha wished prophet Joseph very much and she tried to delude Joseph. Prophet Joseph was fond of her for a time and Allah prevent Joseph to commit a sin. So we Muslims know all circumstances about prophet Muhammed and we ignore such vile aspersion.

 

[Mount_Carmel]

CEDRIK - By all means study the Qur’an, but also study its historicity and context, in the full light of academic, rational and logical rigour. God has given us brains with which to think, as well as our emotions.

I would like some others have, caution being drawn into its many claims, that can be easily refuted if only you go to reliable and rational sources.

A daily prayer for ‘discernment’ is a good thing to shield yourself with.

Also, Isaiah 53 written around 700BC, forecast Jesus and His rejection and suffering, and as a result of His suffering and death, humanity’s ‘salvation’.

 

[mamlukman]

You can reject Muhammed and Islam but you should do that in a fair way.

What was unfair about my summary of the story? You added some details, but did not disagree with the accuracy of what I said.

I agree that if you believe Muhammad was a prophet who could not commit sin, then you have a problem justifying his actions–but that’s my point. There are a lot of verses in the Qur’an that–to a non-Muslim–are simply there to justify what Muhammad has already done.

I will add that because of this incident, adoption, which was very much like the current Western idea of adoption until that incident, was then changed, according to the Qur’an, in two major ways: first, adoption itself was changed–an adopted child no longer took the name of its adopted parents; it became more an arrangement we think of as “foster parents.” And an adopted adolescent daughter would have to be veiled in the presence of the father who adopted her (and his other sons)–signaling that she was not really part of the family. Second, the entire earlier law about fathers not marrying the ex-wives of adopted sons was cancelled. To a Muslim, this might make sense. To a non-Muslim, this is bizarre.

Contrast all that with Matthew 5:28 “But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.”

Again, my point is that in the Qur’an there are a lot of verses that either justify Muhammad’s actions and / or that are limited to a specific incident at the time, in contrast to the New Testament, where advice or rules are universal for all places and times.

 

[mamlukman]

There is no an evidence that Muhammed saw Zaynab unclothed. That is a faked up assumption.

Once Zulayha wished prophet Joseph very much and she tried to delude Joseph. Prophet Joseph was fond of her for a time and Allah prevent Joseph to commit a sin. So we Muslims know all circumstances about prophet Muhammed and we ignore such vile aspersion.

As for the “fake assumption” that Muhammad saw Zaynab naked, the story comes from Tabari, a Muslim historian and Qur’an commentator who died in 923. His 40-volume history was translated into English fairly recently and should be available in any good university library.

This exchange points up the problem with debating with Muslims. Muslims use a priori arguments: “Muhammad was a prophet. Prophets cannot sin. Therefore any evidence showing Muhammad sinning must be false.” This is not scientific, and not historical method. If you want to show that Tabari was wrong, you need historical evidence, not religious faith.

As for the story of Joseph, Christians may not recognize this Joseph as the one with the multi-colored cloak who became vizier of Egypt. The story of Joseph in the Qur’an (like most of the other Bible stories given in the Qur’an) is a slightly different version. As Catholics know, all men (including prophets) are sinners. The only exception was Mary, the mother of Jesus.

All this in a way is a distraction from my main post. However, it is a great example of what you will run into if you discuss religion with Muslims, so for that, thank you Hasantas!