Studying and discussing Catholicism with my wife

[HopkinsReb]

Good morning, all.

I grew up Episcopalian and am currently a member, with my wife of a little over a year, of the Anglican Church in North America. In the last couple months, however, through this site and a couple other sources, I’ve learned about some of the problems with the fundamental assumptions of my religious upbringing, particularly sola scriptura and sola fide. I’m in the process of studying like a madman to try to figure out what to think and what I need to do; I’m in the process of a quick read through the New Testament, and I’m about to start going through and comparing key sections of the 39 Articles of Religion and the Westminster Confession to the Catholic Chatechism.

All that’s well and good. The thing I need help with is approaching this with my wife. She’s a member with me in the ACNA, but she was raised in the Presbyterian Church in America, and is simply reflexively anti-Catholic. She gets the willies at my praying an Anglican rosary and folks crossing themselves and genuflecting in church. It took some convincing to get her to tolerate the similarities between Anglicanism and Catholicism.
And now, when I broach the topic of some of the inconsistencies I’m finding in Protestant beliefs, she goes into panic mode. The other day, when I mentioned James 2, she found it very suspicious that I was even reading that chapter.

Part of the panic comes from a simple misunderstanding of Catholic doctrine – she believed that the Catholics worship Mary, that they believe that man is justified by works alone, etc. The usual misconceptions. Oh, and a deep and abiding mistrust of the Episcopate, thinking that bishops are there to put a layer between us and God to keep us from having a personal relationship with Christ or something like that.

How do I talk about these things with my wife? I want her to be with me throughout this process and not just reflexively trying to shut down any questioning. I understand that she’s still in the process of getting used to a church environment and liturgy that she’s not used to, especially as we only recently officially joined our church, but I think answering these questions matters and want to be able to talk and think through them with her.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

First off, congratulations on taking the first steps on this journey. A lot of people, when presented with these difficulties, just kind of shut down and stop thinking about it (like your wife.) I applaud your persistence, even if it is challenging.

As for your wife, it’s going to take time. From what I’ve seen / read, those sorts of biases are really hard to get over. They shaped her world view for a long time, and have always been a “truth” in the background of how she sees the world. When you present someone with information that contradicts their understanding of the world, their initial reaction is pretty much always going to be to deny it. The stronger that belief is held, or the more central it is to that person’s identity, the more difficult it’s going to be to get the,m to even consider the possibility that it might be wrong. The two pillars of the Presbyterian faith seem to be Sola Scriptura, and that Catholicism is of the Devil. It’s not going to be easy for someone raised in that environment to move beyond it.

My suggestion is to start small. Figure out which of her hang ups is the most innocuous, and work on that. Don’t start with Mary or that Saints, or the Bishops, or one of those big ticket items. You have to start with someone small, seemingly insignificant. Once they can admit that they might be wrong on something small, it becomes easier for them to admit that something else could be wrong. Work your way up through the various difficulties until she’s willing to address topics like Mary. That’ll probably be the last one she’ll come around on…

The other thing you need to do is show her how this faith affects your life. Be a better husband than you have been. Have a deeper faith life. Grow in love for her and for God. As you grow in your faith and come to a deeper understanding of Christ’s Church, grow in the ways you express that faith in your life. This is hard to put into practice, but living out this growth in faith is the best thing to make her think that there may be something to it.

Last of all, have patience, and pray. This is going to be hard for your wife. She’s wrong, but from her perspective, the more Catholic you become, the farther away from God you move. It is a pitiable position to be in, but it’s one you have to keep in mind throughout this process. Just continue to love her, and show her that your growth in Catholicism goes hand in hand with a growing love for Christ and for her.

 

[HopkinsReb]

Fortunately, I think the question of bishops will be one of the easier hurdles. The ACNA has an Episcopate, and the first time we heard our Bishop preach (the day he received us into the church), his sermon was on the role of bishops. That at least made her a little more comfortable with the concept, so hopefully being in an episcopal and liturgical church will help her get more comfortable with those aspects.

 

[TK421]

Good morning, all.

I grew up Episcopalian and am currently a member, with my wife of a little over a year, of the Anglican Church in North America. In the last couple months, however, through this site and a couple other sources, I’ve learned about some of the problems with the fundamental assumptions of my religious upbringing, particularly sola scriptura and sola fide. I’m in the process of studying like a madman to try to figure out what to think and what I need to do; I’m in the process of a quick read through the New Testament, and I’m about to start going through and comparing key sections of the 39 Articles of Religion and the Westminster Confession to the Catholic Chatechism.

All that’s well and good. The thing I need help with is approaching this with my wife. She’s a member with me in the ACNA, but she was raised in the Presbyterian Church in America, and is simply reflexively anti-Catholic. She gets the willies at my praying an Anglican rosary and folks crossing themselves and genuflecting in church. It took some convincing to get her to tolerate the similarities between Anglicanism and Catholicism.
And now, when I broach the topic of some of the inconsistencies I’m finding in Protestant beliefs, she goes into panic mode. The other day, when I mentioned James 2, she found it very suspicious that I was even reading that chapter.

Part of the panic comes from a simple misunderstanding of Catholic doctrine – she believed that the Catholics worship Mary, that they believe that man is justified by works alone, etc. The usual misconceptions. Oh, and a deep and abiding mistrust of the Episcopate, thinking that bishops are there to put a layer between us and God to keep us from having a personal relationship with Christ or something like that.

How do I talk about these things with my wife? I want her to be with me throughout this process and not just reflexively trying to shut down any questioning. I understand that she’s still in the process of getting used to a church environment and liturgy that she’s not used to, especially as we only recently officially joined our church, but I think answering these questions matters and want to be able to talk and think through them with her.

Scott Hahn’s book “Rome Sweet Rome” talks about his own conversion story but also how he interacted with his wife, who remained protestant (at least for several years), and had considered divorcing him at one point but didn’t because she knew that was wrong.

Aversion to Catholicism isn’t always or only intellectual, but also emotional and spiritual. While it isn’t bad to have conversations about doctrine and why Catholics believe such and such, it’s also important to demonstrate the way your love for God and His Church impacts your life and makes you a better man and to commit everything to prayer.

Congratulations on becoming Catholic. Peace.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

For your own situation, I would suggest you read Newman’s Apologia. Yes, it’s a long hard slog, but it shows step by step how he came to become a Catholic. It’s worth it in the end!

As for your wife, I have a close relative that is a member of a small anabaptist sect. When we do talk about religion, I always start by offering her a chance to give her own opinion on a certain practice–for example, “What color should the minister wear during Advent?” Believe it or not, 99% of the time she comes up with what is, in fact, the Catholic position. The reason is that the Catholic position is almost always based on common sense or 2,000 years of tradition. I would NOT start off by saying “The Catholic position is X, Y, and Z.” That’s just off putting. Let her come up with her own answer and rationale, and then casually match it to Catholicism. (For example, “Where do you think all the prophets and good people were before Christ died on the cross?” Maybe she’s never thought about that before. But before you know it, she’s defining Purgatory (or whatever name she wants to give it).

And if she starts talking about how bad the Borgias were, or how evil it was to sell indulgences, agree with her wholeheartedly!

 

[ProdglArchitect]

It certainly can’t hurt.

Let us know if there are any specific questions she has (or you have, for that matter) that we could help you find answers for. I’m not super familiar with Presbyterian beliefs, so I’m not sure what-all problems they have with the Church. We can probably find a small one to start with, and work up from there.

You could also pick up the book “Why We’re Catholic” by Trent Horn. It would probably be a good read for you as well. It present certain Truths of Catholicism in a friendly, non-confrontational way, and explains why we believe what we do. It’s all very surface-level, and every point has centuries of theology behind it that you can dig into later, but as a starting point it’s really excellent.

 

[HopkinsReb]

For your own situation, I would suggest you read Newman’s Apologia. Yes, it’s a long hard slog, but it shows step by step how he came to become a Catholic. It’s worth it in the end!

Literally ordered a copy of it yesterday (seems like a good book for an Anglican looking at becoming Catholic, ya know?), along with the Westminster Confession, the 39 Articles, and the Catholic Catechism.

 

[HopkinsReb]

It certainly can’t hurt.

Let us know if there are any specific questions she has (or you have, for that matter) that we could help you find answers for. I’m not super familiar with Presbyterian beliefs, so I’m not sure what-all problems they have with the Church. We can probably find a small one to start with, and work up from there.

You could also pick up the book “Why We’re Catholic” by Trent Horn. It would probably be a good read for you as well. It present certain Truths of Catholicism in a friendly, non-confrontational way, and explains why we believe what we do. It’s all very surface-level, and every point has centuries of theology behind it that you can dig into later, but as a starting point it’s really excellent.

My questions right now are myriad, but this website fortunately has succinct and convincing answers to a great many of them. I’m definitely still hung up on some of the doctrines about Mary, but from what I’m reading so far, it seems like the Catholic position is deduced logically from scripture (though not stated explicitly), while the Protestant position seems to be a simple “it doesn’t say that explicitly in scripture so it must not be true.” As a former sola scriptura guy, it’s weird to be trying to figure out what to think by taking into account the Protoevangelium…

Also still trying to figure out Papal infallibility and purgatory. I’d say those three things are probably my biggest hangups.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

If you’re interested in some more “light reading,” you should pick up “Behold Your Mother” by Time Staples. That single volume can answer pretty much any question you have concerning the Marian dogmas. Time Staples used to be Protestant and went through some major hangups about Mary, so he probably knows exactly what you’re going through and addresses it in his book.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

Literally ordered a copy of it yesterday

Great minds think alike!

There are several other books on Anglican converts–“Catholic Converts: British and American Intellectuals Turn to Rome” by Patrick Allitt springs to mind.

And you should also bear in mind that some of the best Catholic theologians were former Anglicans, Lutherans, or Presbyterians. Cardinal Avery Dulles is an example–son of, yes, John Foster Dulles the former Sec. of State, a good Presbyterian. Louis Bouyer, one of the foremost authorities on liturgy, was a Lutheran. Aiden Nichols, a Dominican priest and professor at Cambridge, was a former Anglican. There are lots of them.

 

[HopkinsReb]

Side note on this topic, something I found really interesting from the bishop’s sermon. He said we have a lot of pastors get reordained in the Anglican church and give the desire to have a bishop as a major reason. Apparently a lot of Protestant pastors do not like that they themselves don’t have pastors.

 

[RealisticCatholic]

folks crossing themselves

Even this alone proves to me that your wife would do well to read up on Christian history — especially Christian history.

For example, (many) Protestants abandoned the sign of the cross. But crossing oneself (in some form or fashion) has been around since the very beginning. For example, we see Tertullian in Northern Africa talking about it in the early AD 200s.

Many Protestant suspicions of Catholicism — from the most fundamental like the Papacy to the seemingly obscure like relics — are rights there, and quite obvious, in the early Church. She needs to know that Catholicism is no medieval corruption but the continuation of early Christianity.

 

[HopkinsReb]

HopkinsReb:

folks crossing themselves

Even this alone proves to me that your wife would do well to read up on Christian history — especially Christian history.

For example, (many) Protestants abandoned the sign of the cross. But crossing oneself (in some form or fashion) has been around since the very beginning. For example, we see Tertullian in Northern Africa talking about it in the early AD 200s.

Many Protestant suspicions of Catholicism — from the most fundamental like the Papacy to the seemingly obscure like relics — are rights there, and quite obvious, in the early Church. She needs to know that Catholicism is no medieval corruption but the continuation of early Christianity.

Unfortunately, there seems to me to be a belief in Presbyterian circles that Christianity was wrong until the Gospel of John Calvin came and saved…nobody from anything, because we’re predestined anyway.

Calvinism weirds me out.

 

[RealisticCatholic]

Oh also.

I think it would be extremely helpful for both you and your wife to look at other early Christian traditions that are in existence today, like the Byzantine/Eastern Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox or even the Assyrian Church of the East. This will show that these independent ancient Christian traditions, which developed in the early Church, parallel much of Catholic thought as well.

This will show you and her that links like episcopal authority, priesthood, veneration of saints, Mary, liturgy, the Eucharist were there from the beginning. Why else would all these distinct Christian traditions — far more ancient than Protestantism — teach/practice them?

 

[RealisticCatholic]

This is why real, sincere research is critical.

Because this notion is disproved when one actually reads even the earliest of Christians — those who knew the Apostles, like Ignatius of Antioch.

These are the same men that determined which Gospels and writings were actually scriptural. You can’t have it both ways: Saying you distrust these men’s authority while at the same time trusting their ability to faithfully discern Scripture.

 

[HopkinsReb]

This is why real, sincere research is critical.

Because this notion is disproved when one actually reads even the earliest of Christians — those who knew the Apostles, like Ignatius of Antioch.

These are the same men that determined which Gospels and writings were actually scriptural. You can’t have it both ways: Saying you distrust these men’s authority while at the same time trusting their ability to faithfully discern Scripture.

This is exactly the line of reasoning that has me here: sola scriptura can’t be right because scripture doesn’t have a list of books that constitute scripture. I had minor doubts and some little things I liked about Catholicism, but hearing that argument was like a dam was broken in my mind and all these questions came flooding in.

 

[Jerzy]

While it isn’t bad to have conversations about doctrine and why Catholics believe such and such, it’s also important to demonstrate the way your love for God and His Church impacts your life and makes you a better man and to commit everything to prayer.

Took the words right out of my mouth!

And @HopkinsReb: May the Lord bless you and your wife on your spiritual pilgrimage!

 

[RealisticCatholic]

Not to be too pushy, since I don’t want my other post overlooked. But I really do mean that research into the other ancient Christian traditions will do you well. Hopefully your wife will be intellectually engaged and not simply dismiss it.

Some people imagine it’s Catholicism vs. the diversity of Protestantism.

But it’s not. It’s ancient Christianity, maintained by (1) Catholicism, (2) Eastern (Byzantine) Orthodoxy, (3) Oriental Orthodoxy (like the Copts and Syrians), and (4) Assyrian Christianity vs. the fairly new Christianity of Protestantism.

The former makes up not only the greater chunk of Christian history, but the Christian population! The Catholic Church is the largest church, and the Eastern Orthodox is the second largest communion of churches!

 

[EnglishTeacher]

Also still trying to figure out Papal infallibility and purgatory. I’d say those three things are probably my biggest hangups.

Maybe it would help to think about purgatory in this way: Protestants and Catholics both believe that, as we are now, we are not fit or ready to stand before Christ. But we also both believe that when we get to heaven, we will finally be sinless and perfect as we stand before Him. Therefore, we agree that something has to happen between the moment of death and heaven. The only real difference between Protestants and Catholics on this point is that Catholics have a developed theology on what happens in that in-between time and Protestants (generally) do not.

You may have read this already, but this is a pretty good article from right here on the Catholic Answers site (and there are others on the topic, too): Is Purgatory in the Bible?

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I’d suggest giving her some of Scott Hahn’s books to read, if she’s a reader. He is a former Presbyterian who converted and became a Catholic apologist, and his Scripture-based arguments may be persuasive to her.