Studying your way out of Mormonism

[Cowboy_Pete]

So the RC Church charging a few hundred bucks for services only when they are used is a bargain, as we don’t have any “minimum” tithing requirements.

If an LDS person described the Catholic church services as a “bargain” that way, I’d criticize them for being disrespectful to Catholicism. Clearly there’s a disconnect here. …

10% is 10% of what I earn. Personally I go net, since on some legal jobs I actually spend more than I end up making. When I was interested, $420 seemed like an entry barrier.

I didn’t mean to criticize your church, Luigi, and I did not mean to give offense.
HonoraDominum, I really did NOT mean to turn this into another “my church can beat up your church” thread. I’m just saying that for me, at that point in my life, it came as a big stop sign. I’m serious that 3 weeks ago I wanted to take the RCIA classes, and spent some time on the internet trying to figure out how to do it. Made some calls. Those that took the calls, kept asking me how old the kids were, and I said no, I’m forty-four. They then put me through to an answering machine message which said it cost $420, and I was too embarrassed to follow-up. Anyway, it later became clear when I saw package prices for the baptism/confirmation with the classes, that there’s an assumption that one already wants to convert before one starts the classes, and to me that’s an entry barrier, just like the (for me) prohibitive price.

 

[twopekinguys]

Something we tell all of our inquirers at the opening session of RCIA is, “Our wish for you is not that you become Catholic. It is for you to be where God wants you to be.”

Cost should never be a factor in learning about a faith, whether it be Catholic, or any other religion. What should be a factor is how much of yourself you are willing to put into it. (studying, praying, reading scripture, etc.)

I have a running joke with all of our RCIA classes, that they have up until 5 minutes before the Easter Vigil starts to tell me they aren’t going to join the Church. Once I’ve got you lined up for the procession, and the candle is in your hand and lit, you’re gonna be Catholic whether you like it or not!!

Wanting to inquire and learn about the Church should not be an automatic indication to anyone in the parish that you have made your (or God’s) final determination.

 

[twopekinguys]

If an LDS person described the Catholic church services as a “bargain” that way, I’d criticize them for being disrespectful to Catholicism. Clearly there’s a disconnect here. …

10% is 10% of what I earn. Personally I go net, since on some legal jobs I actually spend more than I end up making. When I was interested, $420 seemed like an entry barrier.

I didn’t mean to criticize your church, Luigi, and I did not mean to give offense.
HonoraDominum, I really did NOT mean to turn this into another “my church can beat up your church” thread. I’m just saying that for me, at that point in my life, it came as a big stop sign. I’m serious that 3 weeks ago I wanted to take the RCIA classes, and spent some time on the internet trying to figure out how to do it. Made some calls. Those that took the calls, kept asking me how old the kids were, and I said no, I’m forty-four. They then put me through to an answering machine message which said it cost $420, and I was too embarrassed to follow-up. Anyway, it later became clear when I saw package prices for the baptism/confirmation with the classes, that there’s an assumption that one already wants to convert before one starts the classes, and to me that’s an entry barrier, just like the (for me) prohibitive price.

If (and only if), you truly want to inquire, I suggest you talk to the parish priest.

To me, it sounds like there may be a bit of confusion here between CCD (which is for school kids) and RCIA (which is for adults).

 

[zaffiroborant]

I ran across this while on another website, and found it quite interesting.

This gentleman was an lds bishop, and ended up studying his way out of the mormon church.

He really gave some great insight how it all worked for him.

Any thoughts?

youtube.com/watch?v=g00VjgTQLuo
Cowboy Pete;8439511:

Most of the folks I knew that studied their way out of Mormonism were studying porn.

Last edited by Cowboy Pete; Today at 4:37 pm. Reason: Changed wording to avoid distorters construing my remark as an attack on the Bishop’s characte

r

I don’t see much of an improvement in your edited post. I have to say though I’ve found LDS talk about porn and make accusations concerning it’s use more than most, something to those statistics out of UT?

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

I don’t see much of an improvement in your edited post. I have to say though I’ve found [snip Zaff’s accusation that Mormons make too many accusations about porn] [snip Zaff’s general accusation that Mormons are into porn ]

You are misreading me, Zaff. But I likewise misread something you said last month. Did you see my apology about that on the other thread?

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

If (and only if), you truly want to inquire, I suggest you talk to the parish priest.

If I do again, I will remember what you said. Thank you.

To me, it sounds like there may be a bit of confusion here between CCD (which is for school kids) and RCIA (which is for adults).

That’s what I thought; doesn’t the A in RCIA mean Adults? The lady on the phone did sound embarrassed when I said, no, I’m forty four.

 

[zaffiroborant]

You haven’t answered my question, Jharek. Didn’t you repeatedly announce that you were putting me on “ignore”?

Why are you going on about this?? People have quoted you in their replies and these quotes are visible to a person who has you on ignore. Why shouldn’t he reply to these?

No, my point was the “some sheep are black but most sheep are white” argument.

How in the world is this Most of the folks I knew that studied their way out of Mormonism were studying porn. any way a" “some sheep are black but most sheep are white” argument."?

This Bishop left the LDS church, and a number of Catholics left their church (Martin Luther, for starters) based on doctrinal opinion and study. Today, more LDS folks and Catholics leave their respective churches because of temptation and secularization. Like Nietzsche said, they looked into the void and the void looked into them.

Please provide references showing that people change churches due to temptation and secularization and not doctrinal opinion and study.

.

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

People have quoted you in their replies and these quotes are visible to a person who has you on ignore. .

You are obviously wrong: Jharek was the very first person to respond to me. He was not quoting a reply; he replied to me directly.

Why are you going on about me going on about it? Don’t you have anything better to do?
Zaff's straw man::

Please provide references showing that people change churches due to temptation and secularization

I never said people change churches due to porn. I said that they leave the LDS and the Catholic church due to porn and secularization. Where do you get off saying that I claimed that they change churches? Most of the people that “study their way” out of the Mormon and Catholic Churches run off to become Atheists. Do you need a study for that, or is it obvious?

 

[twopekinguys]

Just my two cents here, but how about we cut Pete some slack.

It appears he made a post, and then edited it due to the possibility that it could be construed in the wrong way. How many of us have ever done that.

In addition, it does appear he is making a genuine attempt to be civil and level headed in this thread.

Let’s remember that many times it is hard to determine a person’s “tone” by reading what they have written, as opposed to being spoken.

Ok, maybe that was more than…:twocents:

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

Just my two cents here, but how about we cut Pete some slack.

It appears he made a post, and then edited it due to the possibility that it could be construed in the wrong way. How many of us have ever done that.

In addition, it does appear he is making a genuine attempt to be civil and level headed in this thread.

Let’s remember that many times it is hard to determine a person’s “tone” by reading what they have written, as opposed to being spoken.

Ok, maybe that was more than…:twocents:

Thank you. I’m sorry for my part in derailing your thread. I’ve watched part of your video (short attention span at night) and I do find the stuff interesting about that son of god pattern of changes in the book of Mormon.

I wonder when those changes occurred … I remember ~15 years back at BYU, I was an English grad student and was invited to be part of going through copies of the original hand manuscript and printer’s manuscript for the BoM to try to catch any errs that had crept in through the original printing … I’ve always kicked myself for not taking part in that project.

But if this was a doctrinal, rather than a printer’s change, then why would it be done inconsistently, as the Bishop himself pointed out?

 

[blueadept]

They then put me through to an answering machine message which said it cost $420, and I was too embarrassed to follow-up. Anyway, it later became clear when I saw package prices for the baptism/confirmation with the classes, that there’s an assumption that one already wants to convert before one starts the classes, and to me that’s an entry barrier, just like the (for me) prohibitive price.

There’s always a couple of folks who take the time to go through the process, challenge everything, but decide that they aren’t quite ready at that point. I love these folks for what they bring. The $420 probably would have discouraged them and then the entire class would have lost out. The one I sponsored this year was a science geek where his Catholic wife was the spiritual-type. I told him that he needed to honestly challenge me and that I didn’t expect him to simply accept what was said. I was able to show him that his scientific approach didn’t have to be dramatically different in regards to religious understanding. I would have loved to have sponsored you in RCIA even if you didn’t join the church. The journey would have been great but I can appreciate why the money would have been prohibitive.

I’ve gone through the LDS missionary lessons and I don’t regret the experience. I truly did enjoy it

 

[twopekinguys]

Thank you. I’m sorry for my part in derailing your thread. I’ve watched part of your video (short attention span at night) and I do find the stuff interesting about that son of god pattern of changes in the book of Mormon.

I wonder when those changes occurred … I remember ~15 years back at BYU, I was an English grad student and was invited to be part of going through copies of the original hand manuscript and printer’s manuscript for the BoM to try to catch any errs that had crept in through the original printing … I’ve always kicked myself for not taking part in that project.

But if this was a doctrinal, rather than a printer’s change, then why would it be done inconsistently, as the Bishop himself pointed out?

You’re evidently not the only one asking that question, along with a bunch of others.

Unfortunately, I don’t know that anyone is willing to give that answer. If there is one.

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

There’s always a couple of folks who take the time to go through the process, challenge everything, but decide that they aren’t quite ready at that point. I love these folks for what they bring. The $420 probably would have discouraged them and then the entire class would have lost out. The one I sponsored this year was a science geek where his Catholic wife was the spiritual-type. I told him that he needed to honestly challenge me and that I didn’t expect him to simply accept what was said. I was able to show him that his scientific approach didn’t have to be dramatically different in regards to religious understanding. I would have loved to have sponsored you in RCIA even if you didn’t join the church. The journey would have been great but I can appreciate why the money would have been prohibitive.

I’ve gone through the LDS missionary lessons and I don’t regret the experience. I truly did enjoy it

I admire your spirit. I wish that more LDS teachers shared that view. I had one LDS religion professor that definitely did; I cried like a baby at his funeral.
Sounds like I’d love to be in your class.

 

[Telstar]

If an LDS person described the Catholic church services as a “bargain” that way, I’d criticize them for being disrespectful to Catholicism. Clearly there’s a disconnect here. …

10% is 10% of what I earn. Personally I go net, since on some legal jobs I actually spend more than I end up making. When I was interested, $420 seemed like an entry barrier.

I didn’t mean to criticize your church, Luigi, and I did not mean to give offense.
HonoraDominum, I really did NOT mean to turn this into another “my church can beat up your church” thread. I’m just saying that for me, at that point in my life, it came as a big stop sign. I’m serious that 3 weeks ago I wanted to take the RCIA classes, and spent some time on the internet trying to figure out how to do it. Made some calls. Those that took the calls, kept asking me how old the kids were, and I said no, I’m forty-four. They then put me through to an answering machine message which said it cost $420, and I was too embarrassed to follow-up. Anyway, it later became clear when I saw package prices for the baptism/confirmation with the classes, that there’s an assumption that one already wants to convert before one starts the classes, and to me that’s an entry barrier, just like the (for me) prohibitive price.

I think there’s a slight disconnect, but I’m not exactly sure where it is. I think you might have misunderstood what Luigi Daniele was referring to as ‘services’ in the Catholic Church. If you were thinking that it referred to the Mass or regular Church services like that, then you do have the wrong impression of what was meant. What they were referring to was paying for the ‘service’ of taking the RCIA classes (which was a real shocker to me, because our parish doesn’t charge anything for RCIA except maybe for the book).

There are other special ‘services’ that do require a fee to be paid, as well. Baptisms, funerals, weddings, special Masses that we might ask to be said for someone’s intentions (perhaps on the anniversary of their death), etc., are all things that have certain fees attached to them, so in a sense those would also be seen as ‘fees for services’. But, all of those fees are usually fairly small. I think they were implying that we are only required to pay a set fee to the Church for those particular services, but there is no ‘minimum requirement’ for what we donate to the Church for our regular tithe, like there is for LDS, so it’s a ‘bargain’ from that standpoint. It’s suggested that we donate 10%, but the Pastor certainly doesn’t call us in to have us provide proof that we paid our fair share, before we’re allowed to participate in the Mass.

People that are unable to donate at all, due to their financial situation, are not put in a position to be embarrassed for not being able to give. Although, some of those people tend to donate at least something, while some others that could probably afford to give a lot more, don’t give at all. So, in the end, God is the only one that ever sees the true value of all that we give in the way of tithes. It’s just between us and God.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Not all parishes in the USA have an RCIA process.

None of the parishes in our diocese charge for RCIA. We have a text we use for teaching, that we ask the inquirers/catechumens to purchases, but no way would that be $420.

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

Not all parishes in the USA have an RCIA process.

None of the parishes in our diocese charge for RCIA. We have a text we use for teaching, that we ask the inquirers/catechumens to purchases, but no way would that be $420.

Well, I’m heading to happy valley next week for my brother’s wedding (and will sit outside the temple like any non or jack-mormon while it happens), so maybe I’ll check that out. In LV it costs $420. Does not surprise me that Utah does things differently, because culturally, an entry fee would be prohibitive. And like you, Rebecca, I would be starting it out of curiosity, to see where it takes me … without specific intent to join…

 

[Marie5890]

Please provide references showing that people change churches due to temptation and secularization and not doctrinal opinion and study.

.

Yea I agree. I have always found that argument (“left because they wanted to sin”) soooo weak and lame and lacking in a serious intellectual honesty… OY!!!

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

Yea I agree. I have always found that argument (“left because they wanted to sin”) soooo weak and lame and lacking in a serious intellectual honesty… OY!!!

Why – do you think that’s not why so many Catholics leave to become agnostic or Atheist, or were you not paying attention to what I actually said?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Well, I’m heading to happy valley next week for my brother’s wedding (and will sit outside the temple like any non or jack-mormon while it happens), so maybe I’ll check that out. In LV it costs $420. Does not surprise me that Utah does things differently, because culturally, an entry fee would be prohibitive. And like you, Rebecca, I would be starting it out of curiosity, to see where it takes me … without specific intent to join…

I would check it out again if I were you. One thing you’ll discover about Catholics, we’re organized, but not as organized as Mormons are. It took me two phone calls, that were never answered, and showing up to two different parish RCIAs, to find an RCIA I wanted to attend. The people who run RCIA are lay ministers, dedicated, knowledgeable, and engaged with love for who they are teaching. Let God guide you. I had a constant, awkward atheists prayer for many months, that was simply, “Lead me to you.” God took that prayer seriously.

I know how it goes sometimes, the first prayer this atheist prayed was, “God, if you exist, just end my life.” God also took that prayer seriously, but not in the way I had mean it, and I have thanked Him many times for rescuing me.

St. Mary Magdalan is who led me to the parish where I joined our RCIA, and it is her, who I call my Madeleine, who led me to God. There are good reasons she and I understand each other, and good reasons I turn to her to pray for me and others.

Spe Salvi, in Hope we are saved. Hope, not being of the way people use the word to mean wishing for something to happen that may never happen, but hope, as it is meant as a sure hope. Hope, having a name, Jesus Christ. Our Hope is sure.

May you enjoy the wedding fun. The weather here has turned cool. It snowed in the mountains where I work, but the valleys are still just rainy.

 

[BartBurk]

I would check it out again if I were you. One thing you’ll discover about Catholics, we’re organized, but not as organized as Mormons are. It took me two phone calls, that were never answered, and showing up to two different parish RCIAs, to find an RCIA I wanted to attend. The people who run RCIA are lay ministers, dedicated, knowledgeable, and engaged with love for who they are teaching. Let God guide you. I had a constant, awkward atheists prayer for many months, that was simply, “Lead me to you.” God took that prayer seriously.

I know how it goes sometimes, the first prayer this atheist prayed was, “God, if you exist, just end my life.” God also took that prayer seriously, but not in the way I had mean it, and I have thanked Him many times for rescuing me.

St. Mary Magdalan is who led me to the parish where I joined our RCIA, and it is her, who I call my Madeleine, who led me to God. There are good reasons she and I understand each other, and good reasons I turn to her to pray for me and others.

Spe Salvi, in Hope we are saved. Hope, not being of the way people use the word to mean wishing for something to happen that may never happen, but hope, as it is meant as a sure hope. Hope, having a name, Jesus Christ. Our Hope is sure.

May you enjoy the wedding fun. The weather here has turned cool. It snowed in the mountains where I work, but the valleys are still just rainy.

In my parish in Indiana they didn’t charge anything at all. They even gave us a New American Bible and lesson manual for free. And we had around 40 people in the class.