Studying your way out of Mormonism

[DCNBILL]

Predestination used to be a Catholic doctrine too. Your church’s gradual rejection of that doctrine (which is one of the doctrines described as abomination in the Book of Mormon) is one of the two reasons why most LDS no longer see the Catholic church suspiciously.

To understand the Catholic understanding of Predestination please see the following link, it will correct your misunderstanding of the Church on this matter.

newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm

 

[Telstar]

I’m more trusting of mormons who studied their way into Catholicism, like BartBurk, than those who say they “studied their way out of Mormonism” and ended up Catholic. The latter seems almost disrespectful to Catholicism.

Truthsave, you were never LDS, were you?

Because when you speak about my faith, I always feel like you’re talking about another church entirely.

And when you suggest that a mormon has to be deprogrammed and to study anti-Mormon literature in order to join the Catholic church, that suggests that Catholicism itself lacks the power to save.

The problem is that Mormons are taught from the time they’re born that no one outside of the church is really trustworthy, at all. In fact, non-Mormons are always viewed to be ‘anti-Mormon’ and are held in suspicion that they may turn on them at any time, for any reason. It’s a kind of ‘induced paranoia’ to keep them from leaving the church. They tend to stick together with other Mormons, and don’t really socialize very much with ‘outsiders’, so that just reinforces their independence from the rest of the world, because they have all they need within their own community. Not that it’s a bad thing to have such a tight-knit community, but it does isolate them and insulates them from the ‘contamination’ of outsiders and their ‘wrong ideas’. It shows in almost every post from LDS in response to anything else posted, that they consider to be negative toward Mormonism in general, or against individual Mormons, specifically. That engrained attitude (what I occasionally call the ‘Mormon persecution complex’), that’s learned through negative reinforcement, leads them to question everything that’s said by anyone on the outside, especially if it’s contrary to what they believe is true about their faith.

They’re also taught that anyone or anything that disagrees with their faith, is not worthy to even bother thinking about. LDS are discouraged from reading anything about their own church from any source other than LDS ‘official’ materials. Everything else should just be taken with a grain of salt or completely ignored as lies made up by ‘anti-Mormons’. What they don’t always realize, is that the leaders of their church have made many changes in much of their historic records and beliefs to make it seem more palatable to both LDS, and people in the rest of the world. They’ve also covered up many other things, or made excuses for anything that they couldn’t just sweep under the rug. On the other hand, they’re taught to ‘learn’ about other faiths, only so they can more easily find ways to convince possible converts that what they believe is wrong, and Mormonism is right.

What most of the LDS converts here are saying, is that in the process of either searching for the truth, or in trying to debunk someone else’s beliefs, they have found themselves realizing that what they were always taught to believe, might not really be true at all. Some people are strong enough in their own beliefs in Mormonism to ignore those pangs of doubt, and brush them off as the devil trying to deceive them, but others begin to realize that the truth might just be that Mormonism is not really true. That has to be a cold slap in the face for anyone that was a dedicated LDS, that had never had any doubt about their faith in their entire life, before. I wouldn’t want to be in their position, but I went through my own period of searching when I was in my late teens and early 20’s. Then, I had a ‘rude awakening’ that convinced me that I was walking where angels fear to tread, because I was looking for truth in all the wrong places (really bad places). If you want to call it a ‘burning in the bosom’ that convinced me of the truth, that’s fine. But, it wasn’t just a ‘burning in the bosom’ that I saw with my own eyes. :bigyikes:

 

[NewSeeker]

What most of the LDS converts here are saying, is that in the process of either searching for the truth, or in trying to debunk someone else’s beliefs, they have found themselves realizing that what they were always taught to believe, might not really be true at all. Some people are strong enough in their own beliefs in Mormonism to ignore those pangs of doubt, and brush them off as the devil trying to deceive them, but others begin to realize that the truth might just be that Mormonism is not really true. That has to be a cold slap in the face for anyone that was a dedicated LDS, that had never had any doubt about their faith in their entire life, before.

It’s more than a cold slap in the face; it’s a punch in the gut, followed by a boot to the head. You’re entire worldview, everything that makes you you, that makes sense in the world, is turned upside down. The Mormon life for those who embrace the entire thing in faith is all-consuming. It permeates every aspect of life. Then to turn you back on it for the truth??? Many people told me when I left: “you don’t want to live up the the church’s standards; you’re taking the easy road.” The easy road? Are you kidding me? My social, spiritual, psychological, and emotional moorings have just been torn away. I’m turning my back on what my people, my pioneer ancestors, my relatives, my parents, my wife, and my sons all value. Do you think that’s easy? What are you smoking??? But I’d do it all over again for the sake of truth.

 

[truthsave]

Truthsave, you were never LDS, were you?

Because when you speak about my faith, I always feel like you’re talking about another church entirely.

And when you suggest that a mormon has to be deprogrammed and to study anti-Mormon literature in order to join the Catholic church, that suggests that Catholicism itself lacks the power to save.

Since apparently you know mormonism much better then anyone here, and I give you credit for this, please show us your knowing.
**Give us some litterature that is neutral **it means neither mormon nor anti-mormon where we, average people, can find an unbiased truth.
Generally what I have discovered is if a neutral source (means written by a non mormon or never been mormon or atheistist) find out something that doesn’t back up mormonism is immediately anti monrmon. So either you are mormon or anti-mormon.If was I have stated is true then why you say something that soesn’t mean anything?
your doctrine.
If a litterature is neutral is immediately anti mormon since there is nothing at all that support mormonism except mormons

In order to join the Catholic Church?
Probably you still don’t know I am Orthodox?
Listen Cowboy Pete, whatever Christian denomination an ex-LDS will join he will be much more closer to Christianity then LDS doctrine since LDS doctrine is not Chritian at all.
An LDS will join Protestant? Very well. Catholic? very well! Orthodox ? very well.

I am not programmed fro proselitism. I am trying to make clear something that you LDS would like to confuse in the name of a faulse prophet. You are going to play your game, me mine.

Then since for you it is easy to talk vaguely, tell me how and in which way I am talking incorrectly about LDS doctrine. Point it out clearly.
Be careful here there are many ex LDS that know at least what you know about LDS.

 

[truthsave]

Cowboy Pete:

And when you suggest that a mormon has to be deprogrammed and to study anti-Mormon literature in order to join the Catholic church, that suggests that Catholicism itself lacks the power to save.

Sorry for my Roman Catholic friends ( I guess when you say Catholic you think about roman catholic since other Churches call themselves Catholic…) I’ll answer since it was addressed to me even though I am Eastern Orthodox (Catholic)

What is your vision of power? Giving milk before meet. To get people used little by little by “milk” so that they discernment bend little by little so that at the end the you are ready to push meat in their mouth?
Is this the power you are talking about. If LDS would have any power it would never use this kind of technique.
The power of Christianity is the power of truth.
"He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God." John 8:47

So it is very simple, no more power then this.
The power of christianity doesn’t want to manipulate people and doing things little by little getting them cooked. Jesus came for who is lost, not for who wants to be lost. Who wants to be lost will feel he is not lost so will be uncapable of being touched by the Word.

It is strange I am telling you these things since I became Christian just three years ago.
I am sure you had much more time then I did to study the NT.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Predestination used to be a Catholic doctrine too. Your church’s gradual rejection of that doctrine (which is one of the doctrines described as abomination in the Book of Mormon) is one of the two reasons why most LDS no longer see the Catholic church suspiciously.

It is about choseness…many are called but few are chosen. Why God chooses some and not others is something only God knows. Converts ask this question all the time…why did God reach out to me but not my wife, husband, son, daughter, etc…God does things in His own time, not ours.

This is not an abomination. Besides. Mormons have a stronger theology regarding predestination than Catholics do, by far. I was taught that the very valiant and strong spirits in the Mormon pre existence were destined to be born as wealthy Mormons “in these last days”. People born in poverty and ignorance of Mormonism really screwed up before they were even born.

This is of course in opposition to what Jesus taught, but Mormons don’t seem to notice.

 

[BartBurk]

It is about choseness…many are called but few are chosen. Why God chooses some and not others is something only God knows. Converts ask this question all the time…why did God reach out to me but not my wife, husband, son, daughter, etc…God does things in His own time, not ours.

This is not an abomination. Besides. Mormons have a stronger theology regarding predestination than Catholics do, by far. I was taught that the very valiant and strong spirits in the Mormon pre existence were destined to be born as wealthy Mormons “in these last days”. People born in poverty and ignorance of Mormonism really screwed up before they were even born.

This is of course in opposition to what Jesus taught, but Mormons don’t seem to notice.

The trouble is we don’t live on God’s time table. I suspect His is beyond our understanding.

 

[RebeccaJ]

The trouble is we don’t live on God’s time table. I suspect His is beyond our understanding.

Indeed.

 

[twopekinguys]

It’s more than a cold slap in the face; it’s a punch in the gut, followed by a boot to the head. You’re entire worldview, everything that makes you you, that makes sense in the world, is turned upside down. The Mormon life for those who embrace the entire thing in faith is all-consuming. It permeates every aspect of life. Then to turn you back on it for the truth??? Many people told me when I left: “you don’t want to live up the the church’s standards; you’re taking the easy road.” The easy road? Are you kidding me? My social, spiritual, psychological, and emotional moorings have just been torn away. I’m turning my back on what my people, my pioneer ancestors, my relatives, my parents, my wife, and my sons all value. Do you think that’s easy? What are you smoking??? But I’d do it all over again for the sake of truth.

 

[twopekinguys]

For some people, while they are studying their way out of mormonism, they are simultaneously studying their way into Catholicism.

For others, they have to study their way out completely before they can objectively study anything else.

 

[Miriam1947]

I can’t explain it either. But there it is. All I know is God calls and some respond. I responded, though my response, my faith in God’s existence and mercy, continues to be weak. My lifetime of Mormonism really did a number on me. Lord, have mercy. Help thou my unbelief.

I believe, help thou my unbelief.

I grew up with predestination, double predestination. I had no hope at all.

It is unexplainable. Thanks be to God for his grace for grabbing us out of our unbelief and drawing us to Him.

It makes me cry.

 

[Tony888]

Sorry for my Roman Catholic friends ( I guess when you say Catholic you think about roman catholic since other Churches call themselves Catholic…) I’ll answer since it was addressed to me even though I am Eastern Orthodox (Catholic)

What is your vision of power? Giving milk before meet. To get people used little by little by “milk” so that they discernment bend little by little so that at the end the you are ready to push meat in their mouth?
Is this the power you are talking about. If LDS would have any power it would never use this kind of technique.
The power of Christianity is the power of truth.
"He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God." John 8:47

So it is very simple, no more power then this.
The power of christianity doesn’t want to manipulate people and doing things little by little getting them cooked. Jesus came for who is lost, not for who wants to be lost. Who wants to be lost will feel he is not lost so will be uncapable of being touched by the Word.

It is strange I am telling you these things since I became Christian just three years ago.
I am sure you had much more time then I did to study the NT.

At least until we get dataports inserted into our foreheads, there will always be a process to learning and absorbing knowledge.

Arithmetic before Algebra before Geometry before Calculus before Quantum physics. That is milk before meat.

I’m fairly confident RCIA doesn’t teach Theosis, does it? It is RCC doctrine though.
Me thinks dem Catholics are hiding the meat until after the convert is baptised and confirmed. In fact the convert will probably never learn the meat of Theosis. Such a nasty technique to only serve them milk LOL

 

[hosemonkey]

Most of the folks I knew that studied their way out of Mormonism were studying porn.

Does that indicate that a great number of mormons are addicted to porn? Or perhaps they are finding the BOM pornographic? Or maybe because mormonism just does not hold water and when people open their minds to the truth they find mormonism to be a pack of lies?

 

[mwok]

I’m fairly confident RCIA doesn’t teach Theosis, does it? It is RCC doctrine though.
Me thinks dem Catholics are hiding the meat until after the convert is baptised and confirmed. In fact the convert will probably never learn the meat of Theosis. Such a nasty technique to only serve them milk LOL

Now don’t start that again!

The difference that you are looking for is that in RCIA we are taught that we as Christians are partakers in Gods divinity through the graces he bestows upon us, rather than the LDS waiting until you are a member to tell you that you will one day become a God among a multitude of Gods.

 

[zaffiroborant]

I’m fairly confident RCIA doesn’t teach Theosis, does it? It is RCC doctrine though.
Me thinks dem Catholics are hiding the meat until after the convert is baptised and confirmed. In fact the convert will probably never learn the meat of Theosis. Such a nasty technique to only serve them milk LOL

I am certain that the various individual parish RCIA programs utilize the Catechism of the Catholic Church. The CCC covers theosis and since it takes months before baptism is even a question there is plenty of time to “ponder” the meaning and ask questions. No one at RCIA will ask you after 4 hours of instruction:
Gospel Principles Manual:

Will you follow the example of the Savior and be baptized on (date)?

 

[hosemonkey]

Arithmetic

 

[truthsave]

At least until we get dataports inserted into our foreheads, there will always be a process to learning and absorbing knowledge.

Arithmetic before Algebra before Geometry before Calculus before Quantum physics. That is milk before meat.

I’m fairly confident RCIA doesn’t teach Theosis, does it? It is RCC doctrine though.
Me thinks dem Catholics are hiding the meat until after the convert is baptised and confirmed. In fact the convert will probably never learn the meat of Theosis. Such a nasty technique to only serve them milk LOL

there are alread few very good answers about this your saying.

hesemonkey summarized it very well in saying:

In mormonism, “milk before meat” means not saying anything mind-blowing until we’ve got you firmly hooked

I remember when with my wife we decided to become eastern Orthodox.
First of all no enthusiasm at all from the priest for our asking (good! if we were doing it we weredoing for us not to be said how good we were)
then he asked us if we have been convinced by somebody else or influenced in any way from a friend or another priest.
And even after we became Eastern Orthodox, no such welcoming and human congratulation to make you feel welcome and at home. There was just a question between you and the Lord and to attend Liturgy and praying, of the eartly human aprobation things is full our life.

Perfectly LDS recrutement politics.

 

[NewSeeker]

And when you suggest that a mormon has to be deprogrammed and to study anti-Mormon literature in order to join the Catholic church, that suggests that Catholicism itself lacks the power to save.

No anti-mormon lit was perused in my case.

 

[RebeccaJ]

No anti-mormon lit was perused in my case.

I just don’t think it is possible for a Mormon to understand.

I had no faith, at all. I didn’t study my way into faith, but studying led me to God. The first thing I studied was the word “God”. God is Love…an intriguing idea that I followed. With a prayer of, “lead me to You”.

A friend of mine did the same, her prayer was for God to protect her from what is false.

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

Now don’t start that again!

The difference that you are looking for is that in RCIA we are taught that we as Christians are partakers in Gods divinity through the graces he bestows upon us

And a growing number of mormons, myself included, interpret Lorenzo Snow that way as well, rather than following the theories of the Kentucky-Fried Doctrines.

And Gordon B. Hinckley certainly left that open with his statement, with reference to the KFD, that “we don’t know that.”