Studying your way out of Mormonism

[Z_Ninja]

Then why are LDS missionaries told to ask for a commitment for baptism after the second lesson?

Commitments
• Will you pray to know that what we have taught is true? this was pretty much asked every time they came by.
• Will you repent of your sins? I was never asked this question
• Will you attend church with us this Sunday? they asked every time, or would say, "we’ll see you Sunday, and can call you in the morning if you’d like."
• Will you follow the example of the Savior and be baptized on (date)? The few times I was asked, I wasn’t given a date, but I did feel a bit pressured as one of the missionaries (sister missionary) wanted me to “just give it a try” and that I wouldn’t understand until I was baptized. This put me off quite a bit as the more I said I wanted to just learn more about the LDS the more she would push me to get baptized.
• May we set a time for our next visit? again asked at the end of every lesson, although I felt bad because I was constantly cancelling, especially if my wife wasn’t going to be home from work at the time they would come by.

This is requested in the second lesson, I think 2 hours per lesson is a generous estimate for the time allotted to teach these lessons, so yes LDS missionaries are asking people to commit to baptism after 4 hours of instruction. I do agree two lessons is not enough but this is the approached mapped out by your church. I doubt the first presidency and quorum of 12 is unaware or disapproving the the strategy.

All of the lessons are here, I don’t see that any should take more than 2 hours but others can read them and decide for themselves.

My wife is LDS, and I have probably gone through 8 or 9 sets of missionaries going through the discussions. In my case, the lessons probably lasted about an hour each. Only a few times was I asked to commit to being baptized, but it did fall within the 3rd or 4th lesson.

 

[Tony888]

I’ve always thought a better apples to apples comparison would be to compare the RCC baptism to LDS baby blessings as to the purpose they do and compare LDS baptisms to RCC Confirmation. The similarities are much better in regards to the purpose of each church in performing RCC sacraments/LDS ordinances.

My 2 cents

You make good points but it depends somewhat on whether one is born to the faith or a convert.

For the baby of members, an LDS blessing and an RCC baptism are similar in that they both introduce the baby to the church community.

However, from a sacramental view, LDS baptism is similar to RCC baptism and LDS confirmation is similar to RCC confirmation (gift of the Holy Ghost).

Question - When is an adult Catholic convert normally baptized in their convesion process

 

[blueadept]

However, from a sacramental view, LDS baptism is similar to RCC baptism and LDS confirmation is similar to RCC confirmation (gift of the Holy Ghost).

I’ll let the Catechism speak in order to clear up your misunderstanding

1212 The sacraments of Christian initiation—Baptism, Confirmation, and the Eucharist—lay the foundations of every Christian life. "The sharing in the divine nature given to men through the grace of Christ bears a certain likeness to the origin, development, and nourishing of natural life. The faithful are born anew by Baptism, strengthened by the sacrament of Confirmation, and receive in the Eucharist the food of eternal life. By means of these sacraments of Christian initiation, they thus receive in increasing measure the treasures of the divine life and advance toward the perfection of charity."3

1262 The different effects of Baptism are signified by the perceptible elements of the sacramental rite. Immersion in water symbolizes not only death and purification, but also regeneration and renewal. Thus the two principal effects are purification from sins and new birth in the Holy Spirit.65

Question - When is an adult Catholic convert normally baptized in their convesion process

*Answer - Once they finish the RCIA program, they receive all 3 Sacraments of Initiation - Baptism, Eucharist, Confirmation @ an Easter Vigil service *

For Infants, they receive baptism early (obviously), Eucharist when their in 2nd grade and can begin to understand it, and Confirmation when they are willing to take their faith for themselves (typically 8th grade to being a junior in high school in the U.S.) In Catholic dominated countries, the age tends to be younger and closer to receiving 1st Communion.

So in regards to infants, the involvement of the Holy Spirit begins at baptism and continues through Confirmation that’s all part of the initiation process.

 

[SteveVH]

You make good points but it depends somewhat on whether one is born to the faith or a convert.

For the baby of members, an LDS blessing and an RCC baptism are similar in that they both introduce the baby to the church community.

However, from a sacramental view, LDS baptism is similar to RCC baptism and LDS confirmation is similar to RCC confirmation (gift of the Holy Ghost).

Question - When is an adult Catholic convert normally baptized in their convesion process

An adult Catholic convert is always baptized at Easter Vigil, unless he or she has already received a legitimate baptism through one of the denominations that uses the proper baptismal formula; that is, being baptized in that name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit while using the element of water through immersion, pouring or sprinkling. This is after the person has gone through much study and discernment (one or two years, depending upon the diocese). They will also receive Confrimation and Eucharist at the same time. These are called the Sacraments of Initiation (Baptism, Confirmation, and Eucharist).

Mormon baptisms are not accepted by the Catholic Church because of the Mormon rejection of the Holy Trinity. In other words, one baptized in the Mormon Church has not been baptized into the same God in which we believe. Even though the words are the same, the intention is not. In fact, the Catholic Church considers Mormonism a completely different religion and therefore does not even consider Mormons heretics, but rather something altogether different from Christianity.

 

[blueadept]

Mormon baptisms are not accepted by the Catholic Church because of the Mormon rejection of the Holy Trinity. In other words, one baptized in the Mormon Church has not been baptized into the same God in which we believe. Even though the words are the same, the intention is not. In fact, the Catholic Church considers Mormonism a completely different religion and therefore does not even consider Mormons heretics, but rather something altogether different from Christianity.

There was a time when they were recognized though…

 

[RebeccaJ]

We’ve had a few baptisms that are outside of Easter Vigil to accommodate situations, such as those going on military deployments.

What I really like is when the children of the newly baptized adults are baptized after Easter Vigil, during the Easter season.

 

[RebeccaJ]

There was a time when they were recognized though…

It was hit and miss, the Bishops who weren’t sure proscribed conditional baptisms.

 

[SteveVH]

We’ve had a few baptisms that are outside of Easter Vigil to accommodate situations, such as those going on military deployments.

What I really like is when the children of the newly baptized adults are baptized after Easter Vigil, during the Easter season.

You are quite correct. I was speaking of the normal means of baptizing adult converts. And I couldn’t agree more with you when witnessing the baptism of infants of adult converts. Truly awesome!

 

[Stephen168]

There was a time when they were recognized though…

recognizing another baptism is the default position. They were recognized because the Catholic Church didn’t know any better; then she looked into it and realized they could not be valid.

 

[SteveVH]

There was a time when they were recognized though…

In earlier days, Mormonism was barely a blip on the radar screen. As the Mormon church began to grow and further develop its unique theology, the CC looked more closely. It is always very slow in making such a decisive satement about another faith. It can never be accused of making a knee-jerk reaction.

 

[Miriam1947]

In earlier days, Mormonism was barely a blip on the radar screen. As the Mormon church began to grow and further develop its unique theology, the CC looked more closely. It is always very slow in making such a decisive satement about another faith. It can never be accused of making a knee-jerk reaction.

When you are two millennia old, you are thinking in terms of centuries not of days, months and years.

 

[BartBurk]

In my parish in Indiana they didn’t charge anything at all. They even gave us a New American Bible and lesson manual for free. And we had around 40 people in the class.

I actually e-mailed the Diocese of Las Vegas to see what was charged for RCIA. They told me they had never heard of a charge for RCIA unless there was in their words a “complicated annulment” to be handled. If anyone knows which parish quoted a large fee for RCIA the Diocese wanted to know about it.

 

[blueadept]

I actually e-mailed the Diocese of Las Vegas to see what was charged for RCIA. They told me they had never heard of a charge for RCIA unless there was in their words a “complicated annulment” to be handled. If anyone knows which parish quoted a large fee for RCIA the Diocese wanted to know about it.

That gives me the incentive to check out the costs for my son’s Confirmation class. Cowboy Pete unfortunately has been banned so we may not hear which parish he checked at.

 

[pablope]

I actually e-mailed the Diocese of Las Vegas to see what was charged for RCIA. They told me they had never heard of a charge for RCIA unless there was in their words a “complicated annulment” to be handled. If anyone knows which parish quoted a large fee for RCIA the Diocese wanted to know about it.

Cowboy Pete, who unfortunately has been banned, was the one who brought it up. From his later posts, I surmised it was a misunderstanding…the parish receptionist most likely taught he was asking about something else…probably CCD or some other.

 

[TexanKnight]

I studied my way out. I had no intention of leaving. I was studying to be a BETTER member. I was studying to be a more prepared member. But then, the more I read, the more I found things I could not accept. It was devastating. I WISH it was true. I WISH it was what I was taught it was. I miss it greatly. I still watch GC and marvel at the great teachings. The teachings are awesome, the roots are suspect at best. It makes me very sad.

 

[Miriam1947]

I studied my way out. I had no intention of leaving. I was studying to be a BETTER member. I was studying to be a more prepared member. But then, the more I read, the more I found things I could not accept. It was devastating. I WISH it was true. I WISH it was what I was taught it was. I miss it greatly. I still watch GC and marvel at the great teachings. The teachings are awesome, the roots are suspect at best. It makes me very sad.

So have you studied your way into anything else? Where are you now on your journey?

I’ll pray for you.

 

[Marie5890]

I studied my way out. I had no intention of leaving. I was studying to be a BETTER member. I was studying to be a more prepared member. But then, the more I read, the more I found things I could not accept. It was devastating. I WISH it was true. I WISH it was what I was taught it was. I miss it greatly. I still watch GC and marvel at the great teachings. The teachings are awesome, the roots are suspect at best. It makes me very sad.

The time you are in right now is the most painful and even confusing. A great deal of grief, anger, etc etc surface. Many former Mormons, myself included, know this first hand.

Go easy on yourself and be kind. It takes time to both digest it all and unwind the distortions/lies.

God bless.

 

[TexanKnight]

So have you studied your way into anything else? Where are you now on your journey?

I’ll pray for you.

I am Catholic now.

To me, there was only one other choice. I believe God intended ONE Church…ONE Faith, ONE hope, ONE baptism. If Mormons are wrong, then there was never an “apostasy”. And if there was never an Apostasy, then only one other Church has that original authority- The Catholic Church.

But I constantly feel a pull back to the LDS Church. I miss the camaraderie. I miss the togetherness.