Stuff that goes on a funerals

[hansard]

Often at a funeral, there are leaflets handed out, usually photocopied by the funeral director based on the wishes of the bereaved.
They usually feature a photograph of the deceased and (this is the intriguing bit) often have a feel-good statement on the front:

“A celebration of the entry into eternal life of [the deceased’s name]”

or “[the deceased’s name]. At home in God’s loving care.”

or some such platitude.

My thinking is this:

1. How do we know that they have entered into eternal life? I always take this to mean IN HEAVEN in eternal life; I suppose technically they have entered eternal life, whether in Heaven, Hell or Purgatory–it’s just the quality of that life that is unknown.
2. I understand that one has to die in a state of grace to go straight to heaven. That is, to have no mortal sin on one’s soul. The deceased would have had to go to confession quite close to the moment of death in order to meet this condition. Most Catholics are quite lazy about meeting their confessional requirements at the best of times. Therefore, it seems a bit presumptuous to go declaring that someone is in Heaven, when in all likelihood, they’re doing time in purgatory.
3. And even if they did go straight to heaven, what is the point of praying for them? They don’t need prayers any more. It’s those in Purgatory who needs the prayers. As we have absoutely no idea when a person has done their time, we’ll never know just how many prayers are sufficient. (But that’s another issue.)

Basically, praying for the dead is an admission that they are in Purgatory. Therefore, the little leaflet is no more than a feel-good token.

 

[LilyM]

First of all let’s look at the two platitudes:

“A celebration of the entry into eternal life of [the deceased’s name]”

Even those who have gone to Hell have indeed entered into eternal life, albeit a life of eternal punishment rather than eternal joy. And the celebration? Well, the mourners are certainly celebrating the memory of the person, regardless of their eternal destination.

or “[the deceased’s name]. At home in God’s loving care.”

Yes, God truly never ceases to love nor care for any soul. Even the act of denying those who are damned His presence is at heart an act of loving care, since it would doubtless be greater torture for one who has rejected Him to spend eternity IN His presence than away from it. Just as to put someone who is hideously deformed in a room consisting of wall-to-ceiling mirrors might be torture to them whereas it might be a pleasure to someone who was physically perfect.

Allowing that there are other platitudes that might more certainly express a belief that a particular person is in heaven, is there anything seriously wrong at such a time with allowing grieving loved ones to comfort themselves with such thoughts?

As for your questions -

And even if they did go straight to heaven, what is the point of praying for them? They don’t need prayers any more. It’s those in Purgatory who needs the prayers. As we have absoutely no idea when a person has done their time, we’ll never know just how many prayers are sufficient. (But that’s another issue.)

No prayer is wasted. It may be that prayer FOR them becomes, in such situations, a prayer WITH them, that in their hands becomes transformed into praise of Him whom they see face to face. Or else it may be applied to another soul by them, one who is in need.

 

[hansard]

Oh, yes. I have no problem when the little leaflet says something like “A celebration of the life of…”.

As for your second point: do you really believe that a merciful and loving God sends souls to an eternity of terror and pain? Do you really think he “hands them over” to Satan, his great enemy–the very thing that Satan wants? What would Satan do with a damned soul anyway, a soul that God himself has cast aside? Torturing such a soul can hardly have much of an impact on God’s plan. And when the Kingdom is established on earth at the end of time, and Satan is locked away forever, do you really think God is going to allow him the wicked pleasure of torturing souls in his eternal incarceration? Doesn’t seem to make sense.

Your final point about prayers for the dead is sheer guesswork.

Generally, I don’t have any serious issue with any of it. People can do what they like and believe what they like. I just doesn’t stand up to much scrutiny.

 

[LilyM]

Oh, yes. I have no problem when the little leaflet says something like “A celebration of the life of…”.

As for your second point: do you really believe that a merciful and loving God sends souls to an eternity of terror and pain? Do you really think he “hands them over” to Satan, his great enemy–the very thing that Satan wants? What would Satan do with a damned soul anyway, a soul that God himself has cast aside? Torturing such a soul can hardly have much of an impact on God’s plan. And when the Kingdom is established on earth at the end of time, and Satan is locked away forever, do you really think God is going to allow him the wicked pleasure of torturing souls in his eternal incarceration? Doesn’t seem to make sense.

Where did you get the idea that either God or Satan necessarily tortures the souls in Hell? Their separation from Him - chosen freely by themselves against God’s will - is its own punishment, like the cancer or lung disease suffered by one who chooses to smoke. Satan suffers as any sinner would, and there’s no indication that he takes pleasure in being punished or punishing others (if he does so).

A condemned criminal might be ‘handed over to’ his jailer, but it’s his own crime that has put him in jail ultimately, no? Doesn’t mean the jailer will actively torture him - merely that he suffers the just punishment for his crime.

What would Satan do with a damned soul? Well, people who are in misery do tend to try to make others as miserable as themselves. And those who know they are in the wrong often seek to drag others down with them. The damnation of sinners is indeed part of God’s plan - it constitutes just payment of the penalty a sinner has incurred for their sins, how could it be otherwise?

 

[bilop]

Oh, yes. I have no problem when the little leaflet says something like “A celebration of the life of…”.

As for your second point: do you really believe that a merciful and loving God sends souls to an eternity of terror and pain? Do you really think he “hands them over” to Satan, his great enemy–the very thing that Satan wants? What would Satan do with a damned soul anyway, a soul that God himself has cast aside? Torturing such a soul can hardly have much of an impact on God’s plan. And when the Kingdom is established on earth at the end of time, and Satan is locked away forever, do you really think God is going to allow him the wicked pleasure of torturing souls in his eternal incarceration? Doesn’t seem to make sense.

Your final point about prayers for the dead is sheer guesswork.

Generally, I don’t have any serious issue with any of it. People can do what they like and believe what they like. I just doesn’t stand up to much scrutiny.

Why wouldn’t I believe in the eternal torment of the damned? Didn’t Jesus tell us straight out?

St. Matthew, Ch. 13

49 So shall it be at the end of the world. The angels shall go out, and shall separate the wicked from among the just. 50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

God Bless

 

[fmagill]

Oh, yes. I have no problem when the little leaflet says something like “A celebration of the life of…”.

As for your second point: do you really believe that a merciful and loving God sends souls to an eternity of terror and pain? Do you really think he “hands them over” to Satan, his great enemy–the very thing that Satan wants? What would Satan do with a damned soul anyway, a soul that God himself has cast aside? Torturing such a soul can hardly have much of an impact on God’s plan. And when the Kingdom is established on earth at the end of time, and Satan is locked away forever, do you really think God is going to allow him the wicked pleasure of torturing souls in his eternal incarceration? Doesn’t seem to make sense.

Your final point about prayers for the dead is sheer guesswork.

Generally, I don’t have any serious issue with any of it. People can do what they like and believe what they like. I just doesn’t stand up to much scrutiny.

On the contrary, everything the Church teaches about “the last things” stands up to any scrutiny we may want to apply to it, if the scrutiny is based on the infallible Word of God rather than our own fallible reasoning.

First of all, God does not “send” anyone to Hell. They choose to go there themselves, by rejecting God’s call to love Him above all things, and to love their neighbor as they love themselves. This is one of the most fundamental principles of the Catholic faith; we have free will, and we are not marionettes. He loves us so much that He refuses to dictate our every move. God’s abundant mercy is always there for the taking, but we must take it. It will not be forced upon us.

Second, as far as I know there is no real basis in Scripture, Tradition or the Magisterium for the notion that Satan “tortures souls”, as if he is like a character from a comic book, standing over the Pit with a pitchfork. Satan’s purpose is to draw souls away from God, and once he accomplishes that by enticing a person to reject God (i.e., to voluntarily and knowingly be in a state of sin rather than of grace) to the point of death, his work is done. The soul is eternally–repeat, *eternally-*deprived of God’s presence. This, as the Church always has taught, is punishment enough. This will be so even after Satan is locked away at the coming of the Kingdom. Read the words of our Lord Jesus Himself in the Gospels, especially Matthew 25: 31-46. Eternally means eternally. There’s no way around that.

And LilyM’s final point about prayers for the dead is not guesswork, it’s based on Sacred Scripture and the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Jesus tells us that all prayers are heard and answered; what He doesn’t tell us is HOW they will be answered. That, obviously, is up to God, who has not chosen to reveal to us all the details. But reasoning from what we do know, the Church concludes that if for any reason a prayer we offer up cannot have the effect we intended, God will put it to good use for some other worthy result in accordance with His plan.

 

[redrosetea]

God doesn’t send anyone to hell…they go voluntarily…it’s their choice

 

[Cristiano]

Oh, yes. I have no problem when the little leaflet says something like “A celebration of the life of…”.

As for your second point: do you really believe that a merciful and loving God sends souls to an eternity of terror and pain? Do you really think he “hands them over” to Satan, his great enemy–the very thing that Satan wants? What would Satan do with a damned soul anyway, a soul that God himself has cast aside? Torturing such a soul can hardly have much of an impact on God’s plan. And when the Kingdom is established on earth at the end of time, and Satan is locked away forever, do you really think God is going to allow him the wicked pleasure of torturing souls in his eternal incarceration? Doesn’t seem to make sense.

Your final point about prayers for the dead is sheer guesswork.

Generally, I don’t have any serious issue with any of it. People can do what they like and believe what they like. I just doesn’t stand up to much scrutiny.

Assuming for a moment that your logic were correct, why would God cast Satan in Hell? The devil is a fallen angel created by God. Why wouldn’t God be merciful to him too, and treat him differently than humans?

 

[KestrelRose]

…
Basically, praying for the dead is an admission that they are in Purgatory. Therefore, the little leaflet is no more than a feel-good token.

Having attended the funeral of my brother, my sister, my aunt, my father, three cousins, a number of very close friends. I will tell quite frankly a “feel-good token” is not such a bad thing.

Kindness is a virtue.

 

[pipper]

I think that basically this is a practical issue. Those pamplets are written and printed by the undertakers, not the family.

And undertakers are masters at rosy languague, those statements are probably part of a computer program and they just fill in the name of the dead person, very impersonal.

Around here there are no Catholic Undertakers pr Catholic cemetaries,they are all part of large national chains of mortuaries, thier main interest is making money.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

. …
Around here there are no Catholic Undertakers pr Catholic cemetaries,they are all part of large national chains of mortuaries, their main interest is making money.

Unfortunately this is becoming the rule everywhere.

 

[KestrelRose]

I think that basically this is a practical issue. Those pamplets are written and printed by the undertakers, not the family.

And undertakers are masters at rosy languague, those statements are probably part of a computer program and they just fill in the name of the dead person, very impersonal.

Around here there are no Catholic Undertakers pr Catholic cemetaries,they are all part of large national chains of mortuaries, thier main interest is making money.

Do not knock undertakers. One of the Corporal Acts of Mercy is burying the dead. If you don’t not want these pamplets make your wishes known. Copy and print your own. It isn’t that hard.

Undertakers are like doctors. They have to distance themselves somewhat or they would be overwhelmed by the grief and pain that they deal with on a daily basis.

 

[YADA]

…
My thinking is this:

1. How do we know that they have entered into eternal life? I always take this to mean IN HEAVEN in eternal life; I suppose technically they have entered eternal life, whether in Heaven, Hell or Purgatory–it’s just the quality of that life that is unknown.
2. I understand that one has to die in a state of grace to go straight to heaven. That is, to have no mortal sin on one’s soul. The deceased would have had to go to confession quite close to the moment of death in order to meet this condition. Most Catholics are quite lazy about meeting their confessional requirements at the best of times. Therefore, it seems a bit presumptuous to go declaring that someone is in Heaven, when in all likelihood, they’re doing time in purgatory.
3. And even if they did go straight to heaven, what is the point of praying for them? They don’t need prayers any more. It’s those in Purgatory who needs the prayers. As we have absoutely no idea when a person has done their time, we’ll never know just how many prayers are sufficient. (But that’s another issue.)

Basically, praying for the dead is an admission that they are in Purgatory. Therefore, the little leaflet is no more than a feel-good token.

First, most people do not run around committing “mortal” sins willy nilly day in and day out … that seems pretty ‘preumptious’ as does the comment abut people being “quite lazy” about meeting confessional obligations

Purgatory is not a “Place” … it is the state of purification to remove the stain of sin that may remain after we are foregiven so that nothing unclean can enter into heaven … your fate - Heaven or Hell is determined at death

The funeral Mass is a celebration of the the re-birth [for lack of a a better analogy that escapes me at the moment] that moving from this life to the next entails …

God is the God of the living and not the dead … even though we “die yet we have eternal life” … a msytery -Yes - hard to get our minds around but that is our faith …

It is entirely appropriate for the Community [the Chruch - the community of believers] that welcomed the person at their Baptism into a life with Christ also then welcomes them and sends them forth to their new life in Christ at their earthly death …

We do pray for the ‘dead’ [Because Jesus is - as i sais above - the God of the living] we pray for those who have left this life and entered into the next …

Prayer is benificial for us, the community and for those for whom we pray … it is never for naught …

 

[CB_Catholic]

Often at a funeral, there are leaflets handed out, usually photocopied by the funeral director based on the wishes of the bereaved.
They usually feature a photograph of the deceased and (this is the intriguing bit) often have a feel-good statement on the front:

“A celebration of the entry into eternal life of [the deceased’s name]”

or “[the deceased’s name]. At home in God’s loving care.”

or some such platitude.

My thinking is this:

1. How do we know that they have entered into eternal life? I always take this to mean IN HEAVEN in eternal life; I suppose technically they have entered eternal life, whether in Heaven, Hell or Purgatory–it’s just the quality of that life that is unknown.
2. I understand that one has to die in a state of grace to go straight to heaven. That is, to have no mortal sin on one’s soul. The deceased would have had to go to confession quite close to the moment of death in order to meet this condition. Most Catholics are quite lazy about meeting their confessional requirements at the best of times. Therefore, it seems a bit presumptuous to go declaring that someone is in Heaven, when in all likelihood, they’re doing time in purgatory.
3. And even if they did go straight to heaven, what is the point of praying for them? They don’t need prayers any more. It’s those in Purgatory who needs the prayers. As we have absoutely no idea when a person has done their time, we’ll never know just how many prayers are sufficient. (But that’s another issue.)

Basically, praying for the dead is an admission that they are in Purgatory. Therefore, the little leaflet is no more than a feel-good token.

I think of it this way: There is no “time” in eternity. So we don’t really know how long purgatory “lasts”. It can’t be measured. So by the time of the funeral a person’s purification may well be over and they indeed may be in heaven, there is no way of telling. Prayers for the dead are efficacious because they are heard in God’s “time”–in eternity. WHEN the prayers are said doesn’t matter, since there is no past or future in eternity–those are linear elements for us to measure time.

It is the same principle as the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass–Christ’s Sacrifice on the Cross is made present to us at every Mass because it is an Eternal Sacrifice. He died historically on a certain day in time, but the reality is that His Sacrifice is ever in the present. When we are dealing with eternal matters we have to ignore our ideas of time and space.

It is an act of charity to give comfort to someone who is grieving. It is an act of charity to give hope to others. It is not a false hope, because we cannot say one way or another, so the hope of salvation for our loved ones is always there. What would be presumptive would be to tell someone their loved one is lost, and that would be cruel as well. Not only cruel, but it could cause someone to lose their faith at this particularly trying time in their life.

So that little leaflet is not just a feel good token. It is an expression of our belief of eternal life in Christ and a reminder of the Mercy of God, which can help someone withstand their grief and loss, and turn to God for comfort, which can help them grow in their faith, which is what we as Christians are supposed to be doing.

 

[agapewolf]

Having attended the funeral of my brother, my sister, my aunt, my father, three cousins, a number of very close friends. I will tell quite frankly a “feel-good token” is not such a bad thing.
.

It is when it canonizes people saints so that insults everyone in the church for being at the funeral mass.

I’m sorry for your losses, really. But there are comforts we can take in hope. But we can’t have assurance until the pope canonizes your brother, sister, etc.

I’m a music director at a church, and play all the funerals. and I’ve heard sooo many “eulogies” that say " I know (insert name) is in heaven".

Really? Well, then I might as well just pack it up and go home, because then we don’t need to be here praying for their soul. That person, although well intended, just insulted everyone in the church for being there, and leaves that pour soul in purgatory needing more prayers.

 

[KestrelRose]

Perhaps you are right. In fact you probably are.

But:

I have been to a lot of Protestant funerals as well and have heard some jim-dandy hell and damnation sermons.

Hell and Damnation/Saints in Heaven
Take your pick.

Error on the side of kindness makes more sense to me.

 

[Catholic90]

God is outside of time and space as we know it. So once a person dies, who exactly KNOWS how long it takes until they get to heaven? No one! There is no time in heaven. The “time” spent in purgatory may (or may not - we just do not know) equal an Earth’s nanosecond! We just cannot measure it in human terms.

So, yes, the person may very well be in heaven while those at the funeral mourn their loss of the person. We just really do not know! Anyone who does claim to know is not telling the truth!

Funerals are for the living, not the dead.

 

[agapewolf]

Perhaps you are right. In fact you probably are.

But:

I have been to a lot of Protestant funerals as well and have heard some jim-dandy hell and damnation sermons.

Hell and Damnation/Saints in Heaven
Take your pick.

Error on the side of kindness makes more sense to me.

They actually said the deceased were in hell?

It is not an either/or take your pick situation. It is clear what the church says funeral masses are for: they are to offer a mass and prayers for the deceased soul.

 

[agapewolf]

God is outside of time and space as we know it. So once a person dies, who exactly KNOWS how long it takes until they get to heaven? No one! There is no time in heaven. The “time” spent in purgatory may (or may not - we just do not know) equal an Earth’s nanosecond! We just cannot measure it in human terms.

So, yes, the person may very well be in heaven while those at the funeral mourn their loss of the person. We just really do not know! Anyone who does claim to know is not telling the truth!

Funerals are for the living, not the dead.

This is not correct. Funeral masses are to pray for the deceased soul.

 

[redrosetea]

It is when it canonizes people saints so that insults everyone in the church for being at the funeral mass.

I’m sorry for your losses, really. But there are comforts we can take in hope. But we can’t have assurance until the pope canonizes your brother, sister, etc.

I’m a music director at a church, and play all the funerals. and I’ve heard sooo many “eulogies” that say " I know (insert name) is in heaven".

Really? Well, then I might as well just pack it up and go home, because then we don’t need to be here praying for their soul. That person, although well intended, just insulted everyone in the church for being there, and leaves that pour soul in purgatory needing more prayers.

I think funerals have gotten some what backward…They are supposed to be for the dead and not for the living…I heard a wonderful sermon about this, and it made a great deal of sense to me

We need to be reminded to pray for our dead, this is our job as the Church Militant…we need to remember that God is the final judge, and we need to pray