stumbled during a debate with a jehovahs witness

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First off the Witnesses don’t believe in the Trinity. That being the case you will never get them to understand that Jesus is God.

They will tell you that Jesus is a mighty god but not the God. They actually believe in 2 gods. God the almighty God and mighty god they name as Jesus.

As far as Thomas saying My Lord and My God they will tell you that Thomas was using a term of endearment.

They believe that first there is God that God created Jesus then through Jesus all things were created.

They will tell you that God gave Jesus all authority and that is the final answer for them.

So I think to them Jesus is nothing without his father.

They will tell you that the Holy Spirit is a streak of lightening and not the third person of the Trinity.

Did you know that once upon a time they actually worshiped Jesus and celebrated Christmas and believed in the cross? Their beliefs change along with their Governing Body.
Interestingly enough their theology is based on the personal belief of their founders/leaders…

ie: they pretend to not understand how God can be a Holy Trinity… yet, they have no problems creating a two distinct and seperate God and god theology to explain Jesus’ Divinity (not God but like a god–now that is clear understanding!)

…and their keen understanding does not stop there… it seems that they have some special knowledge about Jewish custom that Thomas uses “My Lord and my God!” Odd how nowhere else in Scriptures is that precise term ever used!

…and talk about dismissing Scriptures… so their streak of lighting shock the Virgin Mary into conceiving the Word?

…and not to mention how that streak of lighting whent about making friends of God and Inspiring the Sacred Scriptures!

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Sad isn’t it?

Yes. Which would mean that Jesus created Himself if all things were created by God through Jesus.
…but their limit does not end there… they have tried to explain to me that Jesus is not the Alpha and the Omega (Beginning and End); that when Scriptures say that He is the Beginning and the End this only means that He is the first to be Resurrected… then they go into that wonderful void… so I challenge, if that is what Scriptures mean then why do we bother at all since if Jesus is the Beginning of Resurrection… wouldn’t that also make Him the End/Last? Would that not mean that no one else will be resurrected?

…they usually start looking into their little manuals so that we may return to their choreographed theology…

…interestingly enough, they proudly boast of being the visible people of God… ‘cause they are the ones that have His Name–blind faith again since Scriptures speaks of only One Name by whcih all will be Saved: Jesus; and Apocalypse speaks of those who are Saved not having any other Name but Jesus’

…talk about the blind leading the blind! 🤷

Maran atha!

Angel
 
OK…

First off the I am he, which Jesus ascribes to Himself quite regularly for which I am is shorthand is not the name God gives the Moses. That name is Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh, which means roughly I am the becoming one. This is usually associated YHWH, but YHWH is actually I am he. The LXX authors when they translated this name used to Greek words, ego eimi. The name Christ ascribed to Himself in the Greek of the Gospels is this very name.

There is no doubt that He was claiming divinity. That is why they picked up stones to stone Him to death because they knew right well what He was saying.

Concerning Corinthians. I will use John because the JW’s seem to like it so much.

Christ says that He does not seek His own glory but the Father’s. John 8:50

That He wants to glorify the Father. John 17:1

That He seeks to do the will of the Father. John 4:34

That Father wills the Son’s worship. John 6:40

Christ’s authority comes from the Father. John 8:28

All of these being true, it seems plainly obvious to me that Christ’s greatest joy is to glorify the Father. Furthermore since it is a sin to not glorify God then it is completely appropriate that God would seek His own glory and that the Son would glorify the Father. That being so then why wouldn’t Christ place Himself under the Father?

This seems to me to be the most natural and holy thing the Son could do, and far from Paul saying Christ is not God (after all in Romans 9:5 Paul says 5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.) Paul is saying that Christ, being God, has His greatest joy in Glorifying the Father, who is God.

God Bless
…but this only works if God the Father and God the Son are truly One (as Jesus states) and not a LORD and a subordinate since the Father seeks that all serve/worship the Son so that His Glory be Complete… why would a LORD (Who would not share His Glory) seek to have an underling be placed on equal standing? …and if not on equal standing, why does the Almighty God tolerates His servants worship of Christ Jesus right at His Throne and in His very Sight (Apocalypse 5:6-8) and just slightly less notable all of Heaven and Earth (Apocalypse 5:9-14)?

…oh… wait, their theology only involves the 144,000 whom they claim are from their religious group… :D:p

Maran atha!

Angel
 
They say here that Jesus and God are of the same mind not that Jesus is God.
I have been talking to one for over 4 years and they have what seems to be a reasonable explanation for every thing.
…but it’s only reasonable if we ignore all other Scriptures; if we compare other Scriptures their theology falls short: ie: Jesus not only said that He and the Father are One, but also that He is in the Father and that the Father is in Him–that if we have seen Him we have seen the Father… that everything that Belongs to the Father Belongs to Him… it is quite difficult to understand a theology that spouses the Almighty God creating a demigod to infuse him with His Power in order to bring forth Creation… then allow this demigod to have full Authority and to rival Him in His Own presence (Apocalypse 5:6-9)… then there’s the other Paraclete which they desire that He should not exist at all… their demigod not only challanges God Almighty but He Delegates Full Power and Authority to what they term a lightning spark and it is this other Paraclete that fully reveals God’s Salvific Plan and Inspires Sacred Writings…

Conversely, from Jesus’ own revelation I can tell that the Jehovah are not God’s witnesses since they can’t receive the Holy Spirit because they cannot see Him due to their determination to deny the Son’s Divinity–which brings us back to their limited theology that strips them down to semi-believers since those who deny the Son cannot but deny the Father as they are ONE: the ONE TRUE GOD!

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Even when it says in Hebrews starting from VS5 that God calls no son angel and no angel son they still believe that Jesus is Michael the archangel. Go figure.
…it’s easy: Romans 1:18-21.

Maran atha!

Angel
 
…it’s easy: Romans 1:18-21.

Maran atha!

Angel
Great Scripture quote. Thanks.

I am going to have to make notes from this thread to keep handy when again I talk to my friend. It is a shame. She is a very smart educated lady and yet she can’t see the truth. I wonder how they ingrain their beliefs so deeply in their followers?
God Bless and thanks again to all of you for the interesting thread
 
…but this only works if God the Father and God the Son are truly One (as Jesus states) and not a LORD and a subordinate since the Father seeks that all serve/worship the Son so that His Glory be Complete… why would a LORD (Who would not share His Glory) seek to have an underling be placed on equal standing? …and if not on equal standing, why does the Almighty God tolerates His servants worship of Christ Jesus right at His Throne and in His very Sight (Apocalypse 5:6-8) and just slightly less notable all of Heaven and Earth (Apocalypse 5:9-14)?

…oh… wait, their theology only involves the 144,000 whom they claim are from their religious group… :D:p

Maran atha!

Angel
And the fact that it does not work if the Father and Son are God and subordinate is why the argument is sound.

God Bless
 
But didn’t God tell Moses in Exodus 3:14 "God replied, ‘I am who am.’ Then he added, “This is what you shall tell the Israelites: I AM sent me to you.” Meaning that Moses was to tell them**(The Israelites)** that “I AM” sent Moses to them?
Yes, but the name which God gives Moses translates, “I am that I am” or maybe “I am that which I do” or “I am that which I become”. I think the last two are more sketchy. The point is that YHWH is best translated “I am he” and this was the name Christ applied to Himself when He said ego eimi which translates “I am I am” but was the specific translation used by the authors of the LXX to translate YHWH. There is no doubt this was a claim to divinity on Christ’s part.
True…I can see why they would use the specific scripture qouted above when implying that when he was subjecting himself to the Father. So then would it be feasable for me to use John 10:30 “The Father and I are one” to show that Jesus is God?
Of course
My understanding of this is that Christ, in his human nature, was showing us what to do when it comes to recognizing and glorifying God as our Father.

Nonetheless, though very good points though. Thanks a million!!!
I think we need to be very careful about using language about Christ in His human nature versus His divine nature. While certainly we must always affirm that Christ is both fully man and fully God, we must never say that He was only man and only God. When Christ the man was hungry, God was hungry. When Christ the man suffered, God suffered. So too when Christ the man declared He did nothing except that which was given Him by His Father, so too God the Son did nothing except that which was given Him by His Father.

I cannot explain how this is so, but I am certain that it is. I turn to the Church herself when she anathematized Nestorius in 431 for teaching that Christ’s human nature could never be in union with divine nature. Pope Celestine I and Cyril stood against him and the Council of Ephesus anathematized the teaching.

Nestorius taught that when Christ was hungry, sleepy, crying, suffering or dying, that was the human nature. When Christ was performing miracles, raising Himself/others from the dead or speaking prophecy that was the divine nature. The Church declared;
  1. If anyone distributes between the two persons or hypostases the expressions used either in the gospels or in the apostolic writings, whether they are used by the holy writers of Christ or by him about himself, and ascribes some to him as to a man, thought of separately from the Word from God, and others, as befitting God, to him as to the Word from God the Father, let him be anathema.
That is the forth of twelve anathemas. You should read them they are pretty exhaustive. But the point is, always remember that anything jesus the man did, God did, and anything Jesus as God did, man did. It is a mystery, but it is also our greatest comfort For our High Priest has both full understanding of our plight as men, and yet all sufficiency within Himself to save and sanctify us unto that day when He return for His Church.

God Bless
 
No one mentioned John 1:1 which clearly states that Jesus is God **EXCEPT **in their New World Translation it reads, “and the word was a god”. A god? Is this god a true or false God? They will resort back to the Old Testament where people were called gods or in reference to angels. So exactly who is this god? Work with them on that for a while. They will do everything in their power to convince you that there should be an “a” before the word God in John 1:1. Oh brother… They will climb over boulders to avoid anthills…those passages that are as plain as day. God bless.
 
Great Scripture quote. Thanks.

I am going to have to make notes from this thread to keep handy when again I talk to my friend. It is a shame. She is a very smart educated lady and yet she can’t see the truth. I wonder how they ingrain their beliefs so deeply in their followers?
God Bless and thanks again to all of you for the interesting thread
We all have a hunger to know God (yeah, even atheists); that particular sect has devised a successful method to both lure and trap the unsuspecting…

…part of if is the Church’s fault; we have been trained to be meek and when moving us to deeper pastures we are branded “fragile” (error creeps in)… then there’s the passive “come”

…on the flip side: they act friendly and unthreatening; they employ (from what I undestand) a three-year indoctrination that both renders the mind malleable and embeds the sects theology in almost a blank mind; they also use a military technique similar to that ole divide and conquer where most relationships outside of the sects are terminated, including celebrations of holidays and birthdays…

…its been my experience that they are also boosted with a high dose of “superiority complex” and they end up believing that their understanding is greaten than that of all people who do not belong to their sect…

(Moormons are somewhat similar–at least in the beginning.)

Maran atha!

Angel
 
No one mentioned John 1:1 which clearly states that Jesus is God **EXCEPT **in their New World Translation it reads, “and the word was a god”. A god? Is this god a true or false God? They will resort back to the Old Testament where people were called gods or in reference to angels. So exactly who is this god? Work with them on that for a while. They will do everything in their power to convince you that there should be an “a” before the word God in John 1:1. Oh brother… They will climb over boulders to avoid anthills…those passages that are as plain as day. God bless.
…this is exactly my experience… or they go into that old 'well… it’s Logos… so you see…"

Refer them to the Father calling the Son God and they still refuse to accept God’s Word over their founders’ interpretations.

Show them the titles in Isaiah and they dance and feign wanting to demonstrate clarification…

…ask them how many Lords they serve… they quickly go back to their little yellow book…

…ask them when is it that the Father, God Almighty will come to the Temple… and they accuse you of jumping around and not sticking to Scriptures…

…ask them why Jesus is worshiped… they will come back with a more senior member next time…

…oh, don’t bother asking why they changed their theology several times over… it seems that their circulars/magazines are not kept past a decade or so…

Jesus spoke of them when He stated “Why do you call me Lord, Lord?”

Maran atha!

Angel
 


…oh, don’t bother asking why they changed their theology several times over… it seems that their circulars/magazines are not kept past a decade or so…

Angel
They will tell you that they are being enlightened. This is a process according to them. I asked my friend about this enlightenment. I said that when a JW is enlightened they make a 180 deg turn as to their first interpretation to something different.

Enlightenment should be that a particular topic is expanded in explanation and understanding and not completely erased or changed. She had nothing to say about that. They have a scripture verse about this enlightenment but I can’t recall it right now.

They have an answer to everything.

If you don’t agree with them and they can’t indoctrinate you ,you are no longer welcome. Anyway if you reach that point you know they are not teaching truth so you would leave on you own.
 
We all know very well how the Watchtower has “translated” many verses relating to the Deity of Christ differently than most bibles preceding theirs. A predicament they find themselves in is that their is no consistency in their “translation” on who and what Jesus really is. Is Jesus God, or a god? He of course is one or the other, but not both.

Their NWT specifically without a doubt calls Jesus God (with a capital G) in Isaiah 9:6, Matthew 1:23, John 20:28.

Yet in other verses they call Jesus “a god” : John 1:1, John 1:18 (only begotten god,) John 10:33

I have not had a chance to actually ask a JW about this specific question with regards to their translation. As a previous poster mentioned, they do have very well thought out replies to points that are brought up to them that appear to contradict their belief. I wonder if they have a crafty answer for something that appears to be a glaring inconsistency with how they describe the Lord Jesus?
 
Enlightenment should be that a particular topic is expanded in explanation and understanding and not completely erased or changed. She had nothing to say about that. They have a scripture verse about this enlightenment but I can’t recall it right now.

They have an answer to everything.
The verse you’re thinking of that they twist is Proverbs 4:18.

No, they don’t have an answer for everything. If they did, I wouldn’t have left that way of thinking and decided to become Catholic. JW’s are not that tough to deal with, IF you know what to throw at them. The problem is getting them to return or stick around when they get cornered. The truth is on the Church’s side and we know that. Getting them to see reason is no different than any other anti-Catholic sect. Establishing who has the authority given to them by Jesus Christ is key to any debate. All roads lead to Rome…
 
The verse you’re thinking of that they twist is Proverbs 4:18.

No, they don’t have an answer for everything. If they did, I wouldn’t have left that way of thinking and decided to become Catholic. JW’s are not that tough to deal with, IF you know what to throw at them. The problem is getting them to return or stick around when they get cornered. The truth is on the Church’s side and we know that. Getting them to see reason is no different than any other anti-Catholic sect. Establishing who has the authority given to them by Jesus Christ is key to any debate. All roads lead to Rome…
That is the verse thanks.

I find they are extremely good at twisting scripture to their way of thinking and that is frustrating to me. Compared to the person I talk to I am a babe in the woods. But I am learning S L O W L Y---------
 
Glad someone mentioned Jon 1:1, I guess I should have. I was going to cover this but it seemed long, but now its been broached well why not? We all swim in deep water here right?

If you understand the structure of the Greek there is actually no way to render the verse “…a god.”

First off John 1:1,2 is a poem. The structure is two couplets. The first and fourth lines begin and end with the same declaration while the last noun of the first line is the first of the second, the second the third. So the couplets are 1&4 which is an overall declaration and 2&3 which tell us something specific. It would look like this without verse markers.

Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος
καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν
καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος
οὗτος ἦν ἐν ἀρχῇ πρὸς τὸν θεόν

For those who can’t read Greek, which I admit I am still learning and started learning because I came out of the LDS group and have some JW friends, it reads thus…

In beginning was the word
and the word was with the God
and God was the word
he was in beginning with the God

Now if you have had this discussion with JW’s they have told you there is no indefinite article in the Greek (there is no ‘a car’ there is only ‘car’) and they are right, and if the third line of the poem read “and the word was God” they would have an argument right? Well, no.

The reason why is the word that John uses for “God”. The Greek word for God is Theos, as in theology, and John uses two different words in the poem.

θεόν-“Theon”; gender neutral word for God.

θεὸς-“Theos”; masculine word for God.

Now when theon is used and if there is no definite article in front of the word then we can, but not necessarily must, assume ‘a’ may be used. For example, the JW’s have no problem inserting “the” before ἀρχῇ-“archae”; beginning, even though it could be rendered “In a beginning” this would clearly be outside the author’s intent so no one reads it this way.

So “a god” might be appropriate? The problem is both times John uses theon he precedes it with this word, “τὸν”, and that word means, “the”, so there is no doubt which God John is talking about.

The one time “the” does not precede the word “God” in the poem John uses the masculine form θεὸς, and in Greek you can never assume the indefinite article, you must always assume the definite article precedes the masculine form of any noun. In other words it is not “a car” but “this car”. That is why the proper reading of the Lord’s Prayer is “deliver us from the Evil One” πονηρός-“ponaeros” rather than “deliver us from evil” πονηρόν-“ponaeron”.

So if we want to want to insert all of the articles into the third line of the poem, as the JW’s insist, then it will read thus…

καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος

and (the) God was the word

In other words, you actually can’t translate this verse the way the JW’s do and remain faithful to the text.

That is why the JW “translation” is actually a “interpretation” and is not valid in this or any time.

God Bless
 
Glad someone mentioned Jon 1:1, I guess I should have. I was going to cover this but it seemed long, but now its been broached well why not? We all swim in deep water here right?

If you understand the structure of the Greek there is actually no way to render the verse “…a god.”

First off John 1:1,2 is a poem. The structure is two couplets. The first and fourth lines begin and end with the same declaration while the last noun of the first line is the first of the second, the second the third. So the couplets are 1&4 which is an overall declaration and 2&3 which tell us something specific. It would look like this without verse markers.

Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος
καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν
καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος
οὗτος ἦν ἐν ἀρχῇ πρὸς τὸν θεόν

For those who can’t read Greek, which I admit I am still learning and started learning because I came out of the LDS group and have some JW friends, it reads thus…

In beginning was the word
and the word was with the God
and God was the word
he was in beginning with the God

Now if you have had this discussion with JW’s they have told you there is no indefinite article in the Greek (there is no ‘a car’ there is only ‘car’) and they are right, and if the third line of the poem read “and the word was God” they would have an argument right? Well, no.

The reason why is the word that John uses for “God”. The Greek word for God is Theos, as in theology, and John uses two different words in the poem.

θεόν-“Theon”; gender neutral word for God.

θεὸς-“Theos”; masculine word for God.

Now when theon is used and if there is no definite article in front of the word then we can, but not necessarily must, assume ‘a’ may be used. For example, the JW’s have no problem inserting “the” before ἀρχῇ-“archae”; beginning, even though it could be rendered “In a beginning” this would clearly be outside the author’s intent so no one reads it this way.

So “a god” might be appropriate? The problem is both times John uses theon he precedes it with this word, “τὸν”, and that word means, “the”, so there is no doubt which God John is talking about.

The one time “the” does not precede the word “God” in the poem John uses the masculine form θεὸς, and in Greek you can never assume the indefinite article, you must always assume the definite article precedes the masculine form of any noun. In other words it is not “a car” but “this car”. That is why the proper reading of the Lord’s Prayer is “deliver us from the Evil One” πονηρός-“ponaeros” rather than “deliver us from evil” πονηρόν-“ponaeron”.

So if we want to want to insert all of the articles into the third line of the poem, as the JW’s insist, then it will read thus…

καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος

and (the) God was the word

In other words, you actually can’t translate this verse the way the JW’s do and remain faithful to the text.

That is why the JW “translation” is actually a “interpretation” and is not valid in this or any time.

God Bless
Excellent post! I would add that their New World Translation is not so much a translation but rather a transliteration.
 
That is why the JW “translation” is actually a “interpretation” and is not valid in this or any time.

God Bless
Great point!!!👍 but, convincing them otherwise,from what I have been reading, would be a moot point. I actually debated one, before the spanish speaking guy, a few months back and I felt that I gave her a really good explanation. She hasn’t come back and it seems that I either struck a nerve or got her thinking. Anyway, all of this I have been reading is REALLY good. Makes for great “ammo” for a lack of a better word.
 
Great point!!!👍 but, convincing them otherwise,from what I have been reading, would be a moot point. I actually debated one, before the spanish speaking guy, a few months back and I felt that I gave her a really good explanation. She hasn’t come back and it seems that I either struck a nerve or got her thinking. Anyway, all of this I have been reading is REALLY good. Makes for great “ammo” for a lack of a better word.
In truth in dealing with either LDS/JW/SDA folks I go for that moment in their eyes when they get ready for the next cabbed question and it is not there. You can sort of see the pause and panic on their face that tells you that you have hit home. I don’t consider this a victory for me and I know exactly how uncomfortable it is because it happened to me many times, but it worth while because if it happens enough questions will be asked and truth will out.

God Bless
 
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