Stumbling Block for Protestants?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Charlemagne_II
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Well…then why did God not just forgive directly Eliphaz and his friends here:

Job 42:

7 After the LORD had said these things to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has. 8 So now take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and sacrifice a burnt offering for yourselves. My servant Job will pray for you, and I will accept his prayer and not deal with you according to your folly. You have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has.” 9 So Eliphaz the Temanite, Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite did what the LORD told them; and the LORD accepted Job’s prayer.

Why did God tell Eliphaz to have Job pray for them to be forgiven? What do you think was God’s purpose in telling Eliphaz to go through Job?
For one thing, that was the Old Testament law, and that was what God commanded of him. When Christ came into the world, some of the Old Testament laws were changed according to the new salvation of mankind, which includes forgiveness of sins by God. I am not forgiven by the priest, I am forgiven by God. The priest has no authority over God.
So realistically, what difference does it make? I confess my sins my way, you confess your sins your way. Neither way makes us less Christian.
 
For one thing, that was the Old Testament law, and that was what God commanded of him. .
Actually KM…this passage has nothing to do with OT laws…it has something to do with what God desires…that is why I asked…not what the OT law was…but what was God’s point in telling Eliphaz to go through Job to be forgiven?

What was the point of telling Eliphaz to go to someone to pray for him to be forgiven? Has God’s desire changed from when God told Eliphaz to what God desires today?
When Christ came into the world, some of the Old Testament laws were changed according to the new salvation of mankind,
Actually, the OT was not changed…but was fulfilled and perfected in the NT. The OT is a continuation of the NT.

So I ask again…what was God’s point or purpose in telling Eliphaz to go through Job to be forgiven? Has this somehow changed in our times?
which includes forgiveness of sins by God. I am not forgiven by the priest, I am forgiven by God. The priest has no authority over God.
The priest is the conduit of God’s forgiveness.

Here is another example:

2Sam 12 (please read the whole chapter, will only cite this verse):

13 Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.”

Nathan replied, “The LORD has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. 14 But because by doing this you have shown utter contempt for[a] the LORD, the son born to you will die.”

Question: Why did God send Nathan to David to confront him for his sin? Why was Nathan needed? Why did God not just forgive David directly?
So realistically, what difference does it make? I confess my sins my way, you confess your sins your way. Neither way makes us less Christian
Let me ask you…where does the Bible, in the NT, state the manner of how to be forgiven for our sins? Can you cite the verse and passage with says in particular how to do about the manner of confession?

The difference…we choose to follow what Jesus had laid down how to be forgiven.
I confess my sins my way, you confess your sins your way. Neither way makes us less Christian
But here is the conundrum…should it be your way and mine or should there be only one way? How does having your way or mine accomplish Christ’s wish for one faith, one belief?
 
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

This is speaking about God forgiving us our sins if we seek forgiveness from
Him. How can a priest with hold that?
 
So what would you imagine that Jesus meant when he said this:

"And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23"If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.” (John 20:22-23)

There is only one other time that God breathed on mankind and that was when he created Adam and Eve. The significance of this should not be underestimated. Christ was giving the Apostles (and their successors) his own authority to forgive sins.

Which would contradict the reason Christ gave the authority to forgive sins to the Church. Forgiving one’s sins presupposes that the sins must be confessed. Why would Jesus give this authority to the Church if it were not necessary? And, where did you acquire the authority to do differently?
He breathed onto the Ten and into Adam 😉 My question though… Is this Sacrament practiced early in Sacred Tradition? Acts 1:8 is somewhat similar to John and Matt 28:18-20 with respect to authority to teach. A Sola argument is “where in the Bible” is this demonstrated besides what Jesus said to the ten. I’m not arguing but need a better understanding. thanks.🙂
 
He breathed onto the Ten and into Adam 😉 My question though… Is this Sacrament practiced early in Sacred Tradition? Acts 1:8 is somewhat similar to John and Matt 28:18-20 with respect to authority to teach. A Sola argument is “where in the Bible” is this demonstrated besides what Jesus said to the ten. I’m not arguing but need a better understanding. thanks.🙂
This book traces the sacrament from the OT to its perfection in the NT:

amazon.com/Lord-Have-Mercy-Healing-Confession/dp/0385501706

*esus told his first clergy, “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” In Lord, Have Mercy, Scott Hahn explores the sacrament of reconciliation and shows why it is the key to spiritual growth, particularly in these times of intense anxiety and uncertainty.

Drawing on the history of ancient Israel, the Gospels, the writings of the early Church, and the lives of the saints, Hahn reveals the living, scriptural heart of the Church’s teachings on penance, forgiveness, and reconciliation. It is a story that begins with the sin of Adam and Eve, continues in the biographies of Moses, King David, and the Apostle Peter, and reverberates in the lives of believers today. Hahn presents the Catholic and biblical perspective on sin and mercy, elucidating in clear, easily understood language the true import of Jesus’ simple, yet profound promise–“I am the door; if anyone enters by Me, he will be saved (John 10:9). *
 
I understand this fully, but it did not give the Church the right to deal out punishment. If the sin is forgiven, then it is forgotten. So why should a person have to say 10 Hail Marys to receive full forgiveness?
Punishment? Praying is punishment? Sorry you feel that way.

Penance can take any number of forms. A penance for one person may be to spend a day dedicated completely to his family. One might be told to read a certain Psalm. Or one might simply pray the Lord’s Prayer. It depends upon what is going on in one’s life and a wise priest will assign a penance that is helpful to that person in repenting.

It is certainly nothing close to a punishment.
What happens when I commit a sin and no priest is around to confess it to, like if I live in a very remote rural area. Can I not confess my sin to God alone, and ask Him alone for foregiveness?

This makes no sense to me.
We should always express sorrow for our sins to God, as soon as we commit them, and ask for his forgiveness. And then we should plan on seeing a priest as soon as we can, depending on the nature of the sin. In other words, if one has said a cross word to their spouse that is one thing. If one has murdered someone or committed adultery that is quite another. If we have the intention of going to the sacrament of Reconciliation (Confession) but are prevented from doing so for a good reason (there is no priest around), there is no reason to worry. What you will find, however, is that there are Catholic Churches even in the most rural of areas.

What I think you may not understand is that confessing our sins to a priest and receiving absolution fills us once again with the sanctifying grace we received at Baptism. We are cleansed, once again. It is really one of the most beautiful experiences one can have.

God bless.

Steve
 
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

This is speaking about God forgiving us our sins if we seek forgiveness from
Him. How can a priest with hold that?
Jericho, why do you think that Christ gave the Apostles the authority to forgive sins? Just interested in your thoughts.
 
He breathed onto the Ten and into Adam 😉 My question though… Is this Sacrament practiced early in Sacred Tradition? Acts 1:8 is somewhat similar to John and Matt 28:18-20 with respect to authority to teach. A Sola argument is “where in the Bible” is this demonstrated besides what Jesus said to the ten. I’m not arguing but need a better understanding. thanks.🙂
The Didache
“Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life. . . On the Lord’s Day gather together, break bread, and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure.” (Didache 4:14,14:1 – A.D.70)

The Letter of Barnabas
“You shall judge righteously. You shall not make a schism, but you shall pacify those that contend by bringing them together. You shall confess your sins. You shall not go to prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of light.” (Letter of Barnabas 19 – A.D. 74)

Ignatius of Antioch
“For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the bishop. And as many as shall, in the exercise of penance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, that they may live according to Jesus Christ.” (Letter to the Philadelphians 3 – A.D. 110)

“For where there is division and wrath, God does not dwell. To all them that repent, the Lord grants forgiveness, if they turn in penitence to the unity of God, and to communion with the bishop.” (ibid. 8)

Origen
"[A filial method of forgiveness], albeit hard and laborious [is] the remission of sins through penance, when the sinner . . . does not shrink from declaring his sin to a priest of the Lord and from seeking medicine, after the manner of him who say, “I said, to the Lord, I will accuse myself of my iniquity.” " (Homilies in Leviticus 2:4 – A.D. 248)

Basil the Great
“It is necessary to confess our sins to those to whom the dispensation of God’s mysteries is entrusted. Those doing penance of old are found to have done it before the saints. It is written in the Gospel that they confessed their sins to John the Baptist [Matt. 3:6], but in Acts [19:18] they confessed to the apostles.” (Rules Briefly Treated 288 – A.D. 374)

John Chrysostom
“Priests have received a power which God has given neither to angels nor to archangels. It was said to them: “Whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose, shall be loosed.” Temporal rulers have indeed the power of binding: but they can only bind the body. Priests, in contrast, can bind with a bond which pertains to the soul itself and transcends the very heavens. Did [God] not give them all the powers of heaven? “Whose sins you shall forgive,” he says, “they are forgiven them; whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.” The Father has given all judgment to the Son. And now I see the Son placing all this power in the hands of men [Matt. 10:40; John 20:21-23]. They are raised to this dignity as if they were already gathered up to heaven.” (The Priesthood 3:5 – A.D. 387)
 
Punishment? Praying is punishment? Sorry you feel that way.

Penance can take any number of forms. A penance for one person may be to spend a day dedicated completely to his family. One might be told to read a certain Psalm. Or one might simply pray the Lord’s Prayer. It depends upon what is going on in one’s life and a wise priest will assign a penance that is helpful to that person in repenting.

It is certainly nothing close to a punishment.
Exactly, Steve. When I was a kid, learning Catechism and for my first few Confessions, I thought that penance given by a priest during confession was some forms of punishment. Of course, it was the kind of teaching we received those days and it says much of its quality but nevertheless if you goes through that you could be forgiven to have the same attitude about penance. For us cradle Catholics then, prayers were chores that we must do, so you can see how/why we saw penance as something imposed on us perhaps, against our liking.

It was much later, and you have said it nicely, that penance is seen as never a punishment but an act that is advised/given by a priest to bring us back to God because by sinning we have distanced ourselves from him and we need to come back and close the separation.

Besides the penance given, we can always do more but in the context of Confession, a penance surely comes with an unique blessing, suggesting that we are surrendering ourselves to the forgiveness of God and would want to do anything to improve our relationship with Him.

Penance helps us to realize deeper our shortcoming and the causes of why we committed the sins. Yes, it is true penance does not consist just of verbal prayers (Hail Marys, Our Fathers, etc.) but other actions that we may do, the examples given by you, to help to improve our failure in the area where we sin. Usually the solution would be prayer thus it is a common form of penance but it could be also to address our weaknesses in our ordinary lives - in the family, for example.

Protestants do have similar kind of confession except they call the confessor a counsellor and not a priest because unlike in Catholicism they do not have one in the same mould.
 
…but most of us simply do not believe RC understanding of things.🤷
I guess this pretty much says about protestants who are established in their belief though it by no means universal. Some Protestants are misinformed of Catholic’s doctrines for one reason or the other. Those in this category are more open to explanation and see the rationale behind the said belief. There are converts to Catholicism who exactly had gone through some of this process.
 
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

This is speaking about God forgiving us our sins if we seek forgiveness from
Him. How can a priest with hold that?
The priest can’t and doesn’t. That is not Catholic teaching as I understand it.
 
Well said; judicious cautious use of qualifying words.

GKC
One of my goals here at CAF is to create post that is ridiculously verbose and confounding and yet with proper use of qualifying words manages to not saying anything. My hope is that both sides of a particular issue read as an attack against their own arguments and much merriment ensues.
 
The priest can’t and doesn’t. That is not Catholic teaching as I understand it.
I’ll give you an example of how absolution can and should be withheld, and it is very typical in this day and age. Imagine a man confessing that he is living with his girlfriend and having sexual relations. The priest asks if this person is willing to change his living arrangements and move out. The man says no. He wants absolution but has no intention of avoiding this same sin in the future. The priest, in such an instance, should withhold absolution until there is true contrition and repentance in the form of concrete action.
 
I’ll give you an example of how absolution can and should be withheld, and it is very typical in this day and age. Imagine a man confessing that he is living with his girlfriend and having sexual relations. The priest asks if this person is willing to change his living arrangements and move out. The man says no. He wants absolution but has no intention of avoiding this same sin in the future. The priest, in such an instance, should withhold absolution until there is true contrition and repentance in the form of concrete action.
Exactly. But this is someone who isn’t repentant. The priest does not have the authority to withhold absolution from a truly repentant person, right? The ministry of the priest is to hold us accountable so that we don’t fool ourselves into thinking that we’re all right with God when we aren’t really repentant (and even more importantly, to assure us of God’s mercy even when we feel as if we are such sinners that God can’t forgive us). Also, priestly absolution is an expression of the truth that salvation comes to us in and through the Body of Christ, not through an individual relationship with Jesus. It has nothing to do with condemning a truly repentant person, which is how Protestants misunderstand it.

Edwin
 
One of my goals here at CAF is to create post that is ridiculously verbose and confounding and yet with proper use of qualifying words manages to not saying anything. My hope is that both sides of a particular issue read as an attack against their own arguments and much merriment ensues.
Good luck with that. Generally.

GKC
 
Exactly. But this is someone who isn’t repentant. The priest does not have the authority to withhold absolution from a truly repentant person, right? The ministry of the priest is to hold us accountable so that we don’t fool ourselves into thinking that we’re all right with God when we aren’t really repentant. Also, priestly absolution is an expression of the truth that salvation comes to us in and through the Body of Christ, not through an individual relationship with Jesus. It has nothing to do with condemning a truly repentant person, which is how Protestants misunderstand it.

Edwin
In most cases the priest cannot really know who is truly repentant and who is not, unless you have a scenario such as the one I presented. You are correct, however, that absolution is never withheld normally. The priest is not there to condemn, but rather to forgive. Even withholding absolution is done in charity in order to motivate one to repentance rather than enable them to keep engaging in an activity which is deadly to their souls.
 
I understand this fully, but it did not give the Church the right to deal out punishment. If the sin is forgiven, then it is forgotten. So why should a person have to say 10 Hail Marys to receive full forgiveness?

What happens when I commit a sin and no priest is around to confess it to, like if I live in a very remote rural area. Can I not confess my sin to God alone, and ask Him alone for foregiveness?

This makes no sense to me.
Perhaps it would help to explain that there are more than one kind of punishment for sins. The following should help explain:

"…Punishments are Both Temporal and Eternal

The Bible indicates some punishments are eternal, lasting forever, but others are temporal. Eternal punishment is mentioned in Daniel 12:2: “And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt.”

We normally focus on the eternal penalties of sin, because they are the most important, but Scripture indicates temporal penalties are real and go back to the first sin humans committed: "To the woman he said, ‘I will greatly multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children (Gen. 3:16).

…Temporal Penalties May Remain When a Sin is Forgiven

When someone repents, God removes his guilt (Is. 1:18) and any eternal punishment (Rom. 5:9), but temporal penalties may remain. One passage demonstrating this is 2 Samuel 12, in which Nathan the prophet confronts David over his adultery:

“Then David said to Nathan, ‘I have sinned against the Lord.’ Nathan answered David: ‘The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin; you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die’” (2 Sam. 12:13-14). God forgave David but David still had to suffer the loss of his son as well as other temporal punishments (2 Sam. 12:7-12). (For other examples, see: Numbers 14:13-23; 20:12; 27:12-14.)

Protestants realize that, while Jesus paid the price for our sins before God, he did not relieve our obligation to repair what we have done. They fully acknowledge that if you steal someone’s car, you have to give it back; it isn’t enough just to repent. God’s forgiveness (and man’s!) does not include letting you keep the stolen car.

Protestants also admit the principle of temporal penalties for sin, in practice, when discussing death. Scripture says death entered the world through original sin (Gen. 3:22-24, Rom. 5:12). When we first come to God we are forgiven, and when we sin later we are able to be forgiven, yet that does not free us from the penalty of physical death. Even the forgiven die; a penalty remains after our sins are forgiven. This is a temporal penalty since physical death is temporary and we will be resurrected (Dan. 12:2)."

Source: catholic.com/tracts/primer-on-indulgences

It may also help to keep in mind the image of the Priest as a doctor. The Priest is acting in the Person of Christ, who is the Great Physician. To quote Tertullian, writing in the 2nd century:

“’[Regarding confession, some] flee from this work as being an exposure of themselves, or they put it off from day to day. I presume they are more mindful of modesty than of salvation, like those who contract a disease in the more shameful parts of the body and shun making themselves known to the physicians; and thus they perish along with their own bashfulness’ (Repentance 10:1 [A.D. 203]).”

Source: catholic.com/tracts/confession

Here Fr. Hardon describes the importance of the penance prescribed by the Priest:

"It is impossible to exaggerate the importance of performing the penance assigned by the priest in confession.

Why is this so important?

The penance which the confessor imposes partakes of the efficacy of the sacrament of penance. This means that at least some of the temporal punishment incurred by the sinner is infallibly removed by performing the assigned penance.

The prescribed penance is a sobering reminder that where there was sin there must be voluntary acceptance of pain, at least the recitation of certain prescribed prayers.

The assigned penance tells the sinner that he owes God the sacrifice of his own will to make reparation for disobeying the Divine Will. And the more we have sinned, the more we must love God in the future for giving in to self-love in the past.
Every pain we experience is a gift of God’s mercy. We should join these gifts with the penance we receive in confession. This will make our whole life on earth a life of reparation for sin. It is the best preparation for eternity."

Source: therealpresence.org/archives/Sacraments/Sacraments_004.htm

I hope this helps to explain…
 
Exactly, Steve. When I was a kid, learning Catechism and for my first few Confessions, I thought that penance given by a priest during confession was some forms of punishment. Of course, it was the kind of teaching we received those days and it says much of its quality but nevertheless if you goes through that you could be forgiven to have the same attitude about penance. For us cradle Catholics then, prayers were chores that we must do, so you can see how/why we saw penance as something imposed on us perhaps, against our liking.

It was much later, and you have said it nicely, that penance is seen as never a punishment but an act that is advised/given by a priest to bring us back to God because by sinning we have distanced ourselves from him and we need to come back and close the separation.

Besides the penance given, we can always do more but in the context of Confession, a penance surely comes with an unique blessing, suggesting that we are surrendering ourselves to the forgiveness of God and would want to do anything to improve our relationship with Him.

Penance helps us to realize deeper our shortcoming and the causes of why we committed the sins. Yes, it is true penance does not consist just of verbal prayers (Hail Marys, Our Fathers, etc.) but other actions that we may do, the examples given by you, to help to improve our failure in the area where we sin. Usually the solution would be prayer thus it is a common form of penance but it could be also to address our weaknesses in our ordinary lives - in the family, for example.

Protestants do have similar kind of confession except they call the confessor a counsellor and not a priest because unlike in Catholicism they do not have one in the same mould.
The penance I received once was to write my dad a love letter. I did and it changed our relationship forever. That was one wise priest with a huge heart.
 
The penance I received once was to write my dad a love letter. I did and it changed our relationship forever.
I tend to see the penance as medicinal. At times, a medicine can be a “pain” to take, but we know that it is good for us. And it brings about good, not only for ourselves, but for others, your story here being an example.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top