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SteveVH
Guest
Exactly! Amazing graces flow from this sacrament and heal us in many profound ways.
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Reuben_J
Guest
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Brandall
Guest
Let me start by saying that I don’t have a problem with confession and I’m currently in an RCIA program. There are obvious benefits to it even if you don’t think it necessary. Having to actually think about the sins you have committed and coming up with an action plan of how not to commit them seems to have benefits. That certainly is probably more effective than to say, forgive me God, for I have sinned. With a confession, where you have to name and claim your sin and actually think about repenting of the sins, it can only be helpful.
What about the following though.
9 Pray then like this:
Our Father who art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy kingdom come,
Thy will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread;[a]
12 And forgive us our debts,
As we also have forgiven our debtors;
13 And lead us not into temptation,
But deliver us from evil.**
If you go to confession at 8 and mass at 9, aren’t these requests of God, during the Lord’s prayer, to forgive your sins redundant? Why would Jesus suggest that you ask God to forgive you if he is leaving people on earth with that power? Does the priest having the power to forgive sins preempt God from forgiving sins? If one gets to judgement day without ever having been to a confessional going to be denied entry to heaven?
I’m not trying to stir the pot, I just don’t understand why God cannot forgive sin. I’ve read every post here and I’ve read this link scripturecatholic.com/confession.html. Still though, I do not understand why God cannot forgive sin.**
What about the following though.
9 Pray then like this:
Our Father who art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy kingdom come,
Thy will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread;[a]
12 And forgive us our debts,
As we also have forgiven our debtors;
13 And lead us not into temptation,
But deliver us from evil.**
If you go to confession at 8 and mass at 9, aren’t these requests of God, during the Lord’s prayer, to forgive your sins redundant? Why would Jesus suggest that you ask God to forgive you if he is leaving people on earth with that power? Does the priest having the power to forgive sins preempt God from forgiving sins? If one gets to judgement day without ever having been to a confessional going to be denied entry to heaven?
I’m not trying to stir the pot, I just don’t understand why God cannot forgive sin. I’ve read every post here and I’ve read this link scripturecatholic.com/confession.html. Still though, I do not understand why God cannot forgive sin.**
M
MartinJordan
Guest
Hebrews 5 : 1- 4
Every high priest is selected from among the people and is appointed to represent the people in matters related to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. 2 He is able to deal gently with those who are ignorant and are going astray, since he himself is subject to weakness. 3 This is why he has to offer sacrifices for his own sins, as well as for the sins of the people. 4 And no one takes this honor on himself, but he receives it when called by God, just as Aaron was.
God is forgiving the sin.
MJ
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believerdoc
Guest
Here is where Catholics and Protestants would disagree. Christ is our High Priest; He is the one perfect sacrifice and has offered it once for all. With that in mind there is no longer a need for sacrifices to be offered as were required under the Old Covenant which seems to be the system you are describing, As you know the high priest would enter into the Holy of Holies and offer a sacrifice on behalf of the people. Christ has entered the Holy of Holies in Heaven and poured out His Blood on the Mercy seat once for all. Praise God for His great mercy.
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Isaiah45_9
Guest
Jesus established a New Covenant and Sacraments as means for us to be perfected and sanctified by Him, through Him and in Him.
Romans 12:1 I appeal to you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. 2 Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may prove what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.
Hebrews 13:16
15 Through him then let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of lips that acknowledge his name. 16 Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.
1 Peter 2:4 Come to him, to that living stone, rejected by men but in God’s sight chosen and precious; 5 and like living stones be yourselves built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
*
Philippians 2:14 Do all things without grumbling or questioning, 15 that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, 16 holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may be proud that I did not run in vain or labor in vain. 17 Even if I am to be poured as a libation upon the sacrificial offering of your faith**, I am glad and rejoice with you all. 18 Likewise you also should be glad and rejoice with me.*
Mark 8:34 And he called to him the multitude with his disciples, and said to them,* “If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.** 35 For whoever would save his life will lose it; and whoever loses his life for my sake and the gospel’s will save it. 36 For what does it profit a man, to gain the whole world and forfeit his life? 37 For what can a man give in return for his life? 38 For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him will the Son of man also be ashamed, when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.”*
John 20:19 *On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, **Jesus *came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” 20 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. 21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”
Christ, Himself, established the Sacrament of Reconciliation. He, by His power, gives those with Holy Orders as the Apostles, the ministry of Reconciliation. By Him, through Him and in Him.
This is what Martin’s post ultimately refers to.
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dronald
Guest
Perhaps the biggest stumbling block for Protestants would be the love they experience in their own Church.
My fiance does missions trips every year and has a circle of believers who love us very much. Most would look at that and see God’s work at hand.
That isn’t to say the same doesn’t happen in Catholic Churches, but I can’t get over how much everyone treats me with love and how much I’m learning and how much good our Church does for the poor all around the world. Imagine what you sound like as a Catholic to a humble, loving soul like my fiance when you tell her she’s wrong. She would think you’re crazy.
My fiance does missions trips every year and has a circle of believers who love us very much. Most would look at that and see God’s work at hand.
That isn’t to say the same doesn’t happen in Catholic Churches, but I can’t get over how much everyone treats me with love and how much I’m learning and how much good our Church does for the poor all around the world. Imagine what you sound like as a Catholic to a humble, loving soul like my fiance when you tell her she’s wrong. She would think you’re crazy.
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heidi_storage
Guest
See, I just think that it isn’t necessary for a priest to absolve me of my sins–I think that Jesus provides forgiveness directly. This is what I mean about theological differences.Your saying this makes me think of all the people that most will tell their sins to others, such as confidants or counselors or even on TV shows, so why should they be reluctant to talk to a priest who can give them absolution of their sins instead of merely sympathizing or trying to find psychological remedies for that which only God can give? Funny, isn’t it?
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kmcarl56
Guest
I do see a need for some people to have a person to admit their sins to, and be forgiven, and receive punishment, because they do not feel good or are too ashamed about talking directly to God about such things. It is more comfortable for them to talk to a priest in person, receive advice, and pay a price for the sin.
I also see a need for a more personal relationship with God so that you can feel more comfortable telling Him anything, especially your sins, and asking for His mercy.
Although most Protestants think that confession to a priest is unnecessary, and that being forgiven by a priest is not the same as being forgiven by God, I think that most Protestants simply do not know or understand the priest’s role in this forgiveness. They tend to forget that Jesus gave Peter and the other Apostles the authority, and that the authority to do so has been passed down through the ages. I was one of these people until now.
I think that both ways are proper and can make a person feel redeemed and forgiven so that they can go on with their lives trying not to repeat that sin. It is my deepest hope and prayer that Christians, Catholic and Protestant, can and will come together in the name of Christ our Lord, and stop bickering over dogma. What the Bible says is the Truth.
As I’ve said before, most people are “born into” a religion or denomination, and are, therefore, indoctrinated with the theology and dogmas of that denomination. These people, myself included, have been taught since childhood certain ways of praising the Lord, obeying His commands, and the way to minister to others who are lost.
It is my hope and prayer that we, as Christians, fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, can come together in the name of Christ our Lord and Savior to spread the Good News to everyone we can so as to win souls to eternal salvation.
:grouphug:
I also see a need for a more personal relationship with God so that you can feel more comfortable telling Him anything, especially your sins, and asking for His mercy.
Although most Protestants think that confession to a priest is unnecessary, and that being forgiven by a priest is not the same as being forgiven by God, I think that most Protestants simply do not know or understand the priest’s role in this forgiveness. They tend to forget that Jesus gave Peter and the other Apostles the authority, and that the authority to do so has been passed down through the ages. I was one of these people until now.
I think that both ways are proper and can make a person feel redeemed and forgiven so that they can go on with their lives trying not to repeat that sin. It is my deepest hope and prayer that Christians, Catholic and Protestant, can and will come together in the name of Christ our Lord, and stop bickering over dogma. What the Bible says is the Truth.
As I’ve said before, most people are “born into” a religion or denomination, and are, therefore, indoctrinated with the theology and dogmas of that denomination. These people, myself included, have been taught since childhood certain ways of praising the Lord, obeying His commands, and the way to minister to others who are lost.
It is my hope and prayer that we, as Christians, fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, can come together in the name of Christ our Lord and Savior to spread the Good News to everyone we can so as to win souls to eternal salvation.
:grouphug:
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Reuben_J
Guest
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SteveVH
Guest
It is God who forgives your sin, through his duly appointed and ordained priest. So asking God to forgive our sin in the Lord’s Prayer does not conflict at all with going to confession. I think God would respond: “Yes, I will forgive you your sins. Go to sacrament which I instituted for that very purpose and be forgiven.”
It is much like a President sending his ambassador to a foreign country with the authority to enter into certain agreements that will obligate the President. It is by the President’s authority that the ambassador enters into the agreement, not his own authority. The ambassador’s signature is binding because of the authority of the one who sent him.
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chero23
Guest
Not only do they see confessing to a priest, Mary, the pope, purgatory, the real presence in the Eucharist as stumbling blocks, but I think the inquisition, the crusades and priest abuse is also on their mind.
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57Bill
Guest
First of all thanks so much SteveVH 
for the thorough examples. I’ll go through the ones I have in an ECF book and reread them with your thoughts in mind and other examples as time permits.
for the thorough examples. I’ll go through the ones I have in an ECF book and reread them with your thoughts in mind and other examples as time permits.
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SteveVH
Guest
First of all thanks so much SteveVH
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Brandall
Guest
As a Baptist in RCIA, I can share views on these matters. BTW, I was never a protestant before because I was always connected to the church I always knew. I’m protesting now and separating myself from the Baptist church for the Catholic church.
The people in my life aren’t the type to spend a lot of time talking against another church so Catholics weren’t part of the conversation. From little snippets through the years, I had “learned” that Catholics worshiped idols, worshiped saints, worshiped Mary and thought they were actually eating the body and drinking the blood of Jesus. And oh yeah, that was real wine in that chalice. At the Baptist church, it’s Welch’s grape juice. While many Baptists drank, it was a private thing and in public, it was scorned. Drinking wine at church seemed sinful.
There were many Catholics among my friends and some of the young women I dated were Catholic too, so I was a frequent visitor at mass. Oddly enough, I only heard the gospel during these visits. Maybe they didn’t allow visitors when they did their idol worship and saint worship.
Honestly though, I do understand some of the confusion. Prayer to most people is something you do to communicate with a deity. Therefore, if you are praying to someone else, then you must think them a deity too. I’ve read a few legal briefs in my time and understand the word pray or prayer, when used in a legal document, is meant as a request. Obviously, when the bible was translated into English, this seemed like a good word to use for communicating with our spiritual father. Perhaps it was more a part of the English language back then but now, prayer is most commonly used as a way to communicate with a deity and for the Catholics, with saints.
There are no statues in the Baptist church and many in the Catholic church (obviously for them to worship).
When I felt compelled to learn more about the Catholic church, it was easy enough to understand why things are that way. I understand the praying to saints and to Mary. That doesn’t mean I’m comfortable with it yet and maybe never will be. I’ve said a few “Hail Mary’s” to get me in a contemplative and worshipful mood in preparation for church or prayer. Honestly though, it isn’t something I’m comfortable doing and maybe that will change and maybe it won’t. One thing that really did throw me for a loop though was some of the things I heard during a mass last December. Mary was called “Co-Redemptrix”, “Mediatrix” and “Advocate”. It was said during that sermon that “all graces flowed through Mary”. I not only wasn’t down for that, I was ready to walk away from the Catholic church to never return again. I had already met the man in charge of adult education and RCIA and had met with him several times. The next day, I left him a message saying I needed to meet with him. He’s a good guy and I needed to tell him why I was leaving. When we met, he explained those concepts to me and I was gratefully relieved to find that those things do not mean what they sound like they mean.
As for the Eucharist, I really have no problem with the concept, at least what I can really understand about it. It does not say in the bible, “pretend this is my body”, it says, “this is my body”. Even in the Baptist church, which is a cousin several times removed from the Catholic church, it was conveyed that “The Lord’s Supper” was solemn and should be done only after asking god for forgiveness and repenting of sins. Since many Catholics see this as the highlight of the mass, (and many leave the right after consumption of the sacrament) I’m looking forward to experiencing it myself. I am expecting great spiritual blessings and hoping not to be disappointed. I’m struggling with “adoration of the blessed sacrament” but I’m keeping an open mind about it. At this point, it borders on being idolatrous. Maybe it will make more sense after I am able to partake. Somethings can only be understood on a spiritual level.
I have no problems with the pope and am grateful for a church with a hiearchy. Each Baptist church is autonomous and frankly, that is one of the biggest problems I have with the Baptist church. To have beliefs, doctrines, stances and even personnel matters decided by a vote is not a good way to operate a church.
As for the inquisitions, the crusades and priest abuse, none of these is a big problem to me. Men, women, everyone makes mistakes and does bad things. Some worse than others. Every church has their skeletons that they would like to hide. The Catholic Church though, being so large and having a longer history, has more of them. It’s all relative and I’m not bothered by the sins that have gone on before particularly when I see systems set in place to avoid them being repeated. That does not mean that I have no compassion for the victims of such but you can’t change history, you can only learn from it.
Now, having said all of the above, it appears that there may be some Catholics that cross the line with some of the veneration of saints and such. I don’t know how pervasive that may be within the church but I definitely get that sense. Hopefully, it isn’t widespread and those that are over the line, will be led back across.
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Charlemagne_II
Guest
**Brandall
Prayer to most people is something you do to communicate with a deity. Therefore, if you are praying to someone else, then you must think them a deity too.**
Catholics do not worship the saints. They venerate them. That is to say, they pay their respects to them. Likewise, not seeing them as dead to this world, they ask them to pray with them for their own needs and intentions. This is one of the things I have never understood about Protestants. They seem to treat the dead as completely dead to this world. The Catholic Church teaches that the saints are members of the Church Triumphant, and therefore worthy of our veneration and love, but not our adoration. Just as you would pray (beseech) a Congressman to vote for a law that would be in your interest, Catholics pray to the saints (WHO STILL LIVE IN HEAVEN) to vote for our interest by joining in the petitions we lay at the altar of God. Most of all, we ask them to join with us in asking God to make us better Christians.
“Ask and you shall receive.” There is strength in numbers!
Prayer to most people is something you do to communicate with a deity. Therefore, if you are praying to someone else, then you must think them a deity too.**
Catholics do not worship the saints. They venerate them. That is to say, they pay their respects to them. Likewise, not seeing them as dead to this world, they ask them to pray with them for their own needs and intentions. This is one of the things I have never understood about Protestants. They seem to treat the dead as completely dead to this world. The Catholic Church teaches that the saints are members of the Church Triumphant, and therefore worthy of our veneration and love, but not our adoration. Just as you would pray (beseech) a Congressman to vote for a law that would be in your interest, Catholics pray to the saints (WHO STILL LIVE IN HEAVEN) to vote for our interest by joining in the petitions we lay at the altar of God. Most of all, we ask them to join with us in asking God to make us better Christians.
“Ask and you shall receive.” There is strength in numbers!
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SteveVH
Guest
You have a good head on your shoulders. God bless you on this incredible journey.
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Reuben_J
Guest
Awesome. Welcome home. May God continues to bless you in your journey.
.
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MartinJordan
Guest
That’s why they’re called Protestants. But proper and complete context and proper understanding of Ministerial Priesthood in which Aaron was, is followed in the Catholic Priesthood model. In Exodus that was when the whole Israelites were kingdom of priests., Yet God also implemented a particular priesthood from one of the twelve tribes of Israel, the Levi. From this tribe remember that God chose Aaron and his sons and their male descendants to be His priests.
This is what Hebrews 5 is referring to.
MJ
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PRmerger
Guest
I think that your fiance sounds like she’s standing in the tradition of Apollos, full of fervor and the spirit of love, but in need of some gentle correction.
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