Stumbling Block for Protestants?

[Per_Crucem]

Right. I asked you to appeal to Scripture to back up your claim that if it’s not in Scripture it’s permitted.

You don’t have a verse to support your paradigm

No, I’m talking about your initial question to the other poster about confession.

 

[SteveVH]

No, I wouldn’t. If one says that you can command or forbid things that God does not command or forbid, you begin playing a very dangerous game with people’s souls. Jesus spoke at length about this in the Gospels.

We have never said that. You are limiting the word of God to the Scriptures. That is where we disagree. Please show us where the Catholic Church commands or forbids things that God does not command or forbid?

You know well His admonition against the Pharisees for teaching the commandments of men as being the commandments of God. The apostles themselves, especially Paul, teach at length in their epistles to various churches about issues such as this.

In making this statement you are presupposing that the Catholic Church teaches the commandments of men rather than the commandments of God. Yet the only Christian communities that can be traced back to a man, rather than Christ, are those who divide from the Catholic Church.

Where does the Bible say that we will be saved by reciting the “sinners prayer”? Is this from man or from God. Where does the Bible say that the most important thing is a “personal relationship” with Jesus Christ? Is this from man or from God? Do you see my point?

 

[Per_Crucem]

Sure.

Not sure your point?

My point is to hold yourself to the standard you’re demanding of heidi about confession.

How do you know God doesn’t command it? Because it’s not in the Bible?

What is the standard for determining whether God commands it, if He doesn’t actually command it somewhere?

Again, where does Scripture say that everything God commands is found only in the Bible?

See above.

That’s a command that God doesn’t make which you, paradoxically, are making.

I hope you see the irony here!

God speaks in several places about those who teach things as law, those things which aren’t law.

 

[dronald]

I am confused. I thought you said that you were getting some “signals” that God wants you to stay in your current church, despite your theological leanings towards Catholicism.

What signals are you receiving?

Ah, I gotcha.

Well, God used this Church to help me find the family and friends I had been praying for. Since then, whenever we have something going on in our lives we get together and pray for eachother, read Scripture and Worship God.

My Church is also very deep in apologetics, we are taught to learn the Bible inside and out so that we can soundly discuss our beliefs with anyone. What we do is we casually hang out and talk to people who are willing to talk to us and give them the Gospel of John to read. We aren’t radical though, sometimes we’ll just hang out on the steps of a busy centre and if anyone passes by we politely ask them if they would like a free book.

We don’t fight or argue, we just want to show others we love them. We go to the homeless and talk about Jesus to then, we feed them and continue on. My now fiance goes to Africa and Romania on missions trips, spreading the Gospel, building wells, Churches, schools etc.

The Church has large prayer meetings and asks nothing in return but for us to pray and worship God. I would say since December over 500 people have been Baptized. There is just so much good that comes from this Church, and it’s obviously being influenced by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

What is the standard for determining whether God commands it, if He doesn’t actually command it somewhere?

His Church.

Unless you have another way to demonstrate where God commanded the New Testament?

 

[Per_Crucem]

We have never said that. You are limiting the word of God to the Scriptures. That is where we disagree. Please show us where the Catholic Church commands or forbids things that God does not command or forbid?

In making this statement you are presupposing that the Catholic Church teaches the commandments of men rather than the commandments of God. Yet the only Christian communities that can be traced back to a man, rather than Christ, are those who divide from the Catholic Church.

I haven’t said anything about what I presuppose the Catholic Church teaches. You think I’m applying that standard solely to Catholicism? I assure you, I don’t

Where does the Bible say that we will be saved by reciting the “sinners prayer”?

No where.

Is this from man or from God. Where does the Bible say that the most important thing is a “personal relationship” with Jesus Christ? Is this from man or from God? Do you see my point?

Yes, I do. I am not arguing for any of those things.

 

[Per_Crucem]

His Church.

So anything the Church says or does is by the command of God? How do you know?

 

[SteveVH]

I haven’t said anything about what I presuppose the Catholic Church teaches. You think I’m applying that standard solely to Catholicism? I assure you, I don’t.

But you still apply it to Catholicism, just not solely. So please tell us which Catholic doctrines and dogmas are the teachings of men and not the teaching of God? Most importantly, how do you determine what is taught by man and what is taught by God? Does this come down to your own private interpretation of Scripture or do you use a higher authority than yourself in determining the truth of Scripture?

 

[Per_Crucem]

But you still apply it to Catholicism, just not solely. So please tell us which Catholic doctrines and dogmas are the teachings of men and not the teaching of God?

In many cases, it’s not the teachings themselves, but rather, that they are commanded to be believed or practiced. The Immaculate Conception, the Assumption, Perpetual Virginity, abstaining from foods, purgatory, the papacy…to name a few. Really, it seems to be a bit of a thread derail to start talking about 20 different issues at once.

Most importantly, how do you determine what is taught by man and what is taught by God?

Hence, Scripture.

Does this come down to your own private interpretation of Scripture or do you use a higher authority than yourself in determining the truth of Scripture?

We both use our own private judgments about those things (and everything else).

 

[SteveVH]

In many cases, it’s not the teachings themselves, but rather, that they are commanded to be believed or practiced. The Immaculate Conception, the Assumption, Perpetual Virginity, abstaining from foods, purgatory, the papacy…to name a few. Really, it seems to be a bit of a thread derail to start talking about 20 different issues at once.

“I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.”…
(Matthews 16:19)

Do you understand what those words mean? This is teaching authority. It was given to the Church under divine protection. The Church therefore has the duty, obligation and authority to decide what must be believed in order to guide the faithful.

Hence, Scripture.

Which must be interpreted correctly. It does not interpret itself.

We both use our own private judgments about those things (and everything else).

What is everything else? It seems to me that you are either reliant on yourself or your local pastor (a man), or something you have read (written by man) to interpret the word of God. In either case you are dependent upon “man” for your interpretation.

 

[PRmerger]

No, I’m talking about your initial question to the other poster about confession.

And I asked you to support your paradigm that you have professed here.

It appears that you have no Scripture to back this up.

 

[Per_Crucem]

“I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.”…
(Matthews 16:19)

Do you understand what those words mean? This is teaching authority. It was given to the Church under divine protection. The Church therefore has the duty, obligation and authority to decide what must be believed in order to guide the faithful.

And how did you determine that this is what the passage means, and that it applies specifically to the Catholic Church?

 

[Per_Crucem]

And I asked you to support your paradigm that you have professed here.

It appears that you have no Scripture to back this up.

See #109

 

[PRmerger]

My point is to hold yourself to the standard you’re demanding of heidi about confession.

Again, that is not our standard.

It is like someone being an English Only advocate here. I come along and say that I am bi-lingual, and believe that all documents by the gov’t should be in English and Spanish.

You come along and say, “Show me why English only should be the standard!”

I will simply respond with, “I don’t believe English only should be the standard.”

You are making me confirm a standard that I don’t espouse.

 

[PRmerger]

What is the standard for determining whether God commands it, if He doesn’t actually command it somewhere?

The Word of God, of course!

God speaks in several places about those who teach things as law, those things which aren’t law.

Is there some law that you believe Catholicism has professed which is not God’s law?

 

[PRmerger]

Ah, I gotcha.

Well, God used this Church to help me find the family and friends I had been praying for. Since then, whenever we have something going on in our lives we get together and pray for eachother, read Scripture and Worship God.

My Church is also very deep in apologetics, we are taught to learn the Bible inside and out so that we can soundly discuss our beliefs with anyone. What we do is we casually hang out and talk to people who are willing to talk to us and give them the Gospel of John to read. We aren’t radical though, sometimes we’ll just hang out on the steps of a busy centre and if anyone passes by we politely ask them if they would like a free book.

We don’t fight or argue, we just want to show others we love them. We go to the homeless and talk about Jesus to then, we feed them and continue on. My now fiance goes to Africa and Romania on missions trips, spreading the Gospel, building wells, Churches, schools etc.

The Church has large prayer meetings and asks nothing in return but for us to pray and worship God. I would say since December over 500 people have been Baptized. There is just so much good that comes from this Church, and it’s obviously being influenced by the Holy Spirit.

Could not the same be said for the Mormon church? Do they not do good, spread good will among their members (some of the nicest people I’ve ever met are Mormons!), and have a genuine bonhomie that may not be found in other churches…

 

[Per_Crucem]

Again, that is not our standard.

It is like someone being an English Only advocate here. I come along and say that I am bi-lingual, and believe that all documents by the gov’t should be in English and Spanish.

You come along and say, “Show me why English only should be the standard!”

I will simply respond with, “I don’t believe English only should be the standard.”

You are making me confirm a standard that I don’t espouse.

I know you don’t espouse it. But why would you expect a non-Catholic to hold to the same standard that you do (i.e., heidi)?

 

[PRmerger]

So anything the Church says or does is by the command of God? How do you know?

The same way you do: you defer to her authority. At least, you do when it comes to the canon of the NT.

How do you know that the Church got this right, Per Crucem?

 

[SteveVH]

And how did you determine that this is what the passage means, and that it applies specifically to the Catholic Church?

Since there was only one Church which Christ founded, and the Catholic Church was the only Church in existence for the first 1500 years (I include the EO) then it must, obviously, apply to the only Church in existence at that time. To what other Church do you believe Jesus was speaking? Do you believe that you have the power to bind and loose?

 

[PRmerger]

I know you don’t espouse it. But why would you expect a non-Catholic to hold to the same standard that you do (i.e., heidi)?

Ummmm, I am asking her to stand by her own standard, Per Crucem.

She holds to the belief that everything we profess about God must be found in the Bible (something, paradoxically, not ever found** in the Bible**), but can’t show, in the Bible, where it says that we can’t confess our sins to a priest.