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Per_Crucem
Guest
That is true.
The Orthodox probably have bigger gripes over Honorius than I do. Though, from what I understand, St. Leo II confirmed him a heretic, and future bishops had to say he was a heretic upon ordination?
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Jaberwocky
Guest
Yes, he was a heretic for negligence. Not for unorthodoxy. So the term “heretic” is probably not the best use of the term. But it was made clear ample times as to what he was condemned for.
The Council itself had already agreed to the idea that no Roman Pontiff will be held accountable for Unorthodoxy (which is how we understand the word today) and which does present a case against the Orthodox for insisting that the in-errancy of the successor of Peter on doctrinal matters was unheard of.
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SteveVH
Guest
Yes, GKC, you are correct. I should have used the term “illicit” rather than “invalid”, an oversight on my part and a fairly serious oversight at that. Nevertheless, as you point out, this really has nothing to do with the ordination of women, which violates the requirement of a valid subject and is therefore no ordination at all.
Thanks for the correction.
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GKC
Guest
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cmodrmac
Guest
You have been promoting unity among Catholics and Lutherans for some time now which is laudable. And then you proclaim to hold as valid the ordination of a female bishop who in turn promotes same sex relationships and ordinations of gay bishops openly living with their gay partners. Do you really have any expectation of unity with the Catholic Church when your ecclesial community behaves in this way?
I would like to answer the question related to an expectation of Unity with the Roman Catholic Church. The answer from my viewpoint is a categorical no. The differences related to the understanding of human sexuality are too great to overcome without significant Divine intervention.
The problem that Roman catholics, at least some of them, have is the expectaiion that because the RC Church says so, it must be so. Anglicans and Lutherans just do not believe that. But the Episcopal Church and many of its members have great respect and in some cases affection for the RC Church. We believe that we are all doing the LOrd’s work. I suggest Pauls Epistle to the romans chapter 3 be read. By the way we celebrate the feast day of St. Francis Sunday. There are Anglican Franciscan communities.
I would like to answer the question related to an expectation of Unity with the Roman Catholic Church. The answer from my viewpoint is a categorical no. The differences related to the understanding of human sexuality are too great to overcome without significant Divine intervention.
The problem that Roman catholics, at least some of them, have is the expectaiion that because the RC Church says so, it must be so. Anglicans and Lutherans just do not believe that. But the Episcopal Church and many of its members have great respect and in some cases affection for the RC Church. We believe that we are all doing the LOrd’s work. I suggest Pauls Epistle to the romans chapter 3 be read. By the way we celebrate the feast day of St. Francis Sunday. There are Anglican Franciscan communities.
This would seem to contradict the Catholic position regarding PNCC, and a few other groups.
Jon
I
Isaiah45_9
Guest
Welcome to EC’s world.
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Per_Crucem
Guest
Do you mean we don’t accept that in a general sense, or with respect to what Rome says about human sexuality?
And here is the issue I have spoken with you about before. Regardless of the claim of succession. Regardless of whether or not you can present irrefutable evidence of the line of succession, the laying on of hands, back to a bishop in communion with the Bishop of Rome. As soon as you ordain women, the CC will not consider it valid.
Presbyter ordination has more support from the history of the Church than the ordination of women. Ordination of women does not bring the LWF closer to unity.
Jon
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SteveVH
Guest
We would agree.
Why is this a problem for Catholics? We believe that Christ founded our Church, gave it the authority to bind and loose and sent the Holy Spirit to guide it into all truth. In other words, we believe that our Church is divinely protected from teaching error in the areas of faith and morals. Why would we not believe that when the Church says so, it must be so?
Anglicans and Lutherans just do not believe that. But the Episcopal Church and many of its members have great respect and in some cases affection for the RC Church. We believe that we are all doing the LOrd’s work. I suggest Pauls Epistle to the romans chapter 3 be read. By the way we celebrate the feast day of St. Francis Sunday. There are Anglican Franciscan communities.
I am happy that you celebrate St. Francis but I’m not sure why you are mad. St. Francis, by the way, submitted completely to the authority of the Church. He believed “when it said so, it was so”. He reformed the Church from within. When he spoke, bishops wept. He understood the difference between sound doctrine and the weakness of human beings, even Catholic clergy.
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EvangelCatholic
Guest
Since joining CAF I have put considerable energy into finding common ground between Lutherans and Catholics. Just as Lutherans and Anglicans have forged strong ties/ full-communion, both Communions are also desirous and working toward full reunification of the Western Church under the Pope. The impression is that the Roman Catholic Church has also devoted much attention to the goal of healing the holy Church.
It is fun to debate and dissect theological minutia but it is also very important that all catholics recognize our basic commonality. Roman Catholics enter Lutheran cathedrals to venerate the relics of saints where a Benediction of the Sacrament was also conducted at Uppsala. Lutherans were present and participated. Was Christ present? Of-course. That is the point.
It is fun to debate and dissect theological minutia but it is also very important that all catholics recognize our basic commonality. Roman Catholics enter Lutheran cathedrals to venerate the relics of saints where a Benediction of the Sacrament was also conducted at Uppsala. Lutherans were present and participated. Was Christ present? Of-course. That is the point.
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GKC
Guest
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GKC
Guest
Or don’t necessarily accept that, in a general sense.
In the specific sense being discussed here, one needs remember that, generally, generalizing about Anglicans is hazardous.
GKC
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GKC
Guest
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Per_Crucem
Guest
By having everyone become Catholic, Evangel. Look, I hear where you’re coming from on this, but when you say “Lutherans and Anglicans have forged strong ties/full-communion,” the reason that is, is because both communions have jettisoned that which made them Lutheran or Anglican with the exception of the trappings. So you must preface the statement with liberal Lutherans and Anglicans. Rome is NOT going to accommodate Lutheran or Anglican beliefs where it differs from Rome; especially not on the liberal end of things.
And they shouldn’t, either. I don’t want Roman Catholics to accept evangelical doctrine just for the sake of unity. I want them to accept evangelical doctrine because they believe it.
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EvangelCatholic
Guest
Lutherans are confessional otherwise they are not Lutherans. How is the full-communion or Lutherans and Anglicans [either Provoo Communion or Called to Common Mission] jettisoned our traditions? We still believe in the Augsburg Confession, which is a catholic statement of faith. I don’t understand how some Lutherans can believe that other Lutherans are not faithful to the confessions when we most certainly are.
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PRmerger
Guest
If they have retained their union with the Bishop of Rome. :yup:
So is it possible now for you to say that the Catholic Church, which gave you the canon of the NT without error, was given the charism of infallibility?
For is that not what the Church professes is the charism she’s been given: the ability to profess a truth about God without error?
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PRmerger
Guest
Bonhomie? I had to look it up. You’re better than O’Reilly!
shaw:- Status