Stumbling Block for Protestants?

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Honorius said:
That is true. However, If God says to do something, it would technically be correct. If an angel (In this case Tobiah did not know it was Raphael at the time, but let’s go with it), is it correct?:confused:

Also, thank you for responding to the supposed errors in the books themselves. I think you are the first to do so.👍
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Again, Honorius, you are making a circular argument.

You cannot say something doesn’t belong in the Bible, because it says things that aren’t part of the Bible.

That’s circular.

That would be like excluding the books of the Bible which talk about a donkey talking because that’s not part of the Word of God.

Is there a more consistent and logical reason that you can offer for rejecting the deutero-canon?
 
PRmerger said:
It makes you ill equipped to understand Purgatory. That’s petty big, don’t you think?
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Not Particularly. If 2nd Maccabees was removed the small index at the back of my Catholic Bible listing verses referring to purgatory would still show 8 or 9 references that “prove” purgatory.
 
LionHeart777 said:
I’m not following… unless it’s just a joke (hence the grin).

But in case not, your post made it seem like we were unique in accepting the Deuteros. I was saying no, actually among Christians it’s those who reject them who are unique (in that regard.) I am aware that Orthodox Bibles are larger…

But they are not all the same… for example, the Ethiopians have the largest Bible.
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It was intended as a joke.😉
 
PRmerger said:
Again, Honorius, you are making a circular argument.

You cannot say something doesn’t belong in the Bible, because it says things that aren’t part of the Bible.

That’s circular.

That would be like excluding the books of the Bible which talk about a donkey talking because that’s not part of the Word of God.

Is there a more consistent and logical reason that you can offer for rejecting the deutero-canon?
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Without using other parts of the Bible (If indeed it is correct) I can criticize most of the historical accounts. They also have several inconsistencies.

In 1 Maccabees Antiochus Epiphanes dies in Babylon, of sadness and anxiety upon hearing his armies have been defeated in Palestine. In 2 Maccabees he dies near Ecbatana after falling off his chariot and contracting worms of some sort.

In 1 Maccabees chapter 8, verse 16 states that the Romans entrust the govenment to one man every year. This is false. In actuality 2 consuls would be elected every year. To be fair, in emergencies a dictator would be elected, but still, the statement is false.

It is time for me to retire for the night. I will post more tomorrow afternoon.:coolinoff:
 
Honorius said:
So leaving out the Apocrypha would make someone ill equipped for every good work? I would say many protestants are proof of this not being true. Not too long ago there was a thread of lamentation about how protestants know their Bible better than Catholics.

About which Old Testament, I would say we should use whatever was used by the Jewish community at the time. Even the introduction in my NAB-RE Bible to most of the Apocryphal books say that although Jews and Protestants do not view them as canon, the Catholic Church does.

The information about the New Testament does not seem to be speaking about the Apocrypha and appears to be irrelevant. It would be relevant in answering other posters about the topic perhaps.:compcoff:
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Go off on a tangent much?

We already know what the Jewish community at the time was mostly using, no? Would 70% of the quotes being from the Septuagint not make a case for what was acceptable for the writers of the New Testament - you know, the dudes that wrote inerrant stuff? And yet, you completely ignore this fact and believe that it’s ok to be minimalistic and chose a smaller canon, and by doing so - take away from the revelation of God…

The Church has spoken about the DC’s. Anyone else’s opinion is just that - an opinion.

It would be relevant for you to answer my question and not hide behind the OP fallacy since I am challenging your post, not the OP.

But after all, you have the freedom to chose what to do. :cool:
 
Honorius said:
Not too long ago there was a thread of lamentation about how protestants know their Bible better than Catholics.
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John 5:39 You search the scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness to me; 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

It is not just “knowing”, it is coming to Christ to have life.
 
Honorius said:
Without using other parts of the Bible (If indeed it is correct) I can criticize most of the historical accounts. They also have several inconsistencies.

In 1 Maccabees Antiochus Epiphanes dies in Babylon, of sadness and anxiety upon hearing his armies have been defeated in Palestine. In 2 Maccabees he dies near Ecbatana after falling off his chariot and contracting worms of some sort.

In 1 Maccabees chapter 8, verse 16 states that the Romans entrust the govenment to one man every year. This is false. In actuality 2 consuls would be elected every year. To be fair, in emergencies a dictator would be elected, but still, the statement is false.

It is time for me to retire for the night. I will post more tomorrow afternoon.:coolinoff:
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Do you need, then, to exclude the Gospel of Luke for historical inaccuracies? For it mentions a Roman census, which cannot be verified by any historical record.
 
PRmerger said:
Do you need, then, to exclude the Gospel of Luke for historical inaccuracies? For it mentions a Roman census, which cannot be verified by any historical record.
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Are you referring to the census of Quirinius?
 
PRmerger said:
No. Where does Luke mention that? :confused:

Edit: ah, nevermind.

Yes. It is the census that was decreed by Caesar Augustus while Quirinius was governor of Syria.
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The census did take place. The only issue that hasn’t been resolved 100% is the timing of the census as compared to the Gospel narratives in Luke and Matthew.
 
PRmerger said:
Secular source for this, please?
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Tacitus, Seutonius, and Dio Cassius wrote of it on the Roman side; also see the Acts of Augustus.

See H.H. Ben-Sasson, A History of the Jewish People, Harvard University Press, 1976, ISBN 0-674-39731-2, page 246: “When Archelaus was deposed from the ethnarchy in 6 CE, Judea proper, Samaria and Idumea were converted into a Roman province under the name Iudaea.”; page 274: “Josephus connects the beginnings of the extremist movement with the census held under the supervision of Quirinius, the legate of Syria, soon after Judea had been converted into a Roman province (6 CE).”

The Jewish historian Josephus also records the event. See Emil Schürer, Fergus Millar (editor), Geza Vermes (editor), The history of the Jewish people in the age of Jesus Christ Vol I, (Continuum, 1973), page 424: “It was started … in the earliest in the summer of C.E. 6.” and completed “at the latest in the autumn of C.E. 7”
 
Honorius said:
That is true. However, If God says to do something, it would technically be correct. If an angel (In this case Tobiah did not know it was Raphael at the time, but let’s go with it), is it correct?:confused:
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Not sure this is a particularly strong argument, Honorius. An angel tells Mary about the Incarnation; an angel tells Joseph to take Mary as his wife; an angel announces to Zechariah in the temple. Should all of them ignored the angels because they weren’t directly hearing the voice of God?
 
Honorius said:
About which Old Testament, I would say we should use whatever was used by the Jewish community at the time.
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Then you wouldn’t use much of anything, since those texts that were in Hebrew at the time do not exist today. What is used today, at least in Protestant circles, is the Masoretic text, which is about 8 centuries later than the time of Christ. Outside the synagogues, various editions of the Septuagint were used in Palestine. All of them would have had various books of the non-Hebrew texts included in them.
 
Per_Crucem said:
Tacitus, Seutonius, and Dio Cassius wrote of it on the Roman side; also see the Acts of Augustus.

See H.H. Ben-Sasson, A History of the Jewish People, Harvard University Press, 1976, ISBN 0-674-39731-2, page 246: “When Archelaus was deposed from the ethnarchy in 6 CE, Judea proper, Samaria and Idumea were converted into a Roman province under the name Iudaea.”; page 274: “Josephus connects the beginnings of the extremist movement with the census held under the supervision of Quirinius, the legate of Syria, soon after Judea had been converted into a Roman province (6 CE).”

The Jewish historian Josephus also records the event. See Emil Schürer, Fergus Millar (editor), Geza Vermes (editor), The history of the Jewish people in the age of Jesus Christ Vol I, (Continuum, 1973), page 424: “It was started … in the earliest in the summer of C.E. 6.” and completed “at the latest in the autumn of C.E. 7”
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Fair enough. 👍

I amend my question to Honorius, then, with questions regarding the historicity of the deutero-canon to this: do you discount the Gospel of Mark because it has a scientific inaccuracy? Mark proclaims that the mustard seed is the smallest of seeds on all the earth. This is an inaccuracy.

Using your paradigm, Honorius, do we then get to exclude this Gospel narrative for its scientific inaccuracy?
 
As a former Catholic now Protestant i don’t think it’s a fear of confessing sins to a priest is the problem with the Catholic Church. To say so come across a little arrogant. Just to be clear about my feeling regarding the Catholic Church please see my post in the new member post. You will see I am not anti Roman Catholic.

With that said why would I confess my sins to a person who for all intents and purpose cannot save their own soul? The only mediators to intercede for my sins is Jesus Christ. While a Pastor or Priest can help guide me spiritually they cannot act as my intermediate between heaven and earth. Now before everyone starts attacking me please show me scriptural references indicating otherwise. Please another thing please do not tell me like another RC said to me Christianity is not a religion of the book. My response is Christianity is a religion of Gods word.

God is well aware of my sins. The act of me realizing I am a sinner and confessing them to Him directly in Jesus’ name is how they are forgiven. That is why when Jesus gave up His spirit on the cross the tapestry over the entrance of the Holy of Holies in the temple was torn from top to bottom. It was Gods was of saying the barrier between heaven and earth is broken. Your way to the Father is now through my son Jesus.
 
Mlon said:
With that said why would I confess my sins to a person who for all intents and purpose cannot save their own soul? The only mediators to intercede for my sins is Jesus Christ. While a Pastor or Priest can help guide me spiritually they cannot act as my intermediate between heaven and earth. Now before everyone starts attacking me please show me scriptural references indicating otherwise.
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Because God’s word commands you to. It also promises that through the Office of the Holy Ministry, God’s word of forgiveness is given to you. It is not about mediation or intercession. It is Christ working through His called and ordained servants to, speaking with His command and authority, proclaim forgiveness in His name. When that happens, you are forgiven as surely as if Christ Himself said it to you.

John 20:23
James 5:16
2 Cor. 5:20
Luke 24:47
 
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