Stumbling Block for Protestants?

[PRmerger]

I wound imagine the Catholic hierarchy is a significant stumbling block for Protestants…I know even I am skeptical of it at times.

Hierarchy is nothing more than sacred order. And without it we have disorder.

I certainly don’t want to be in a body that is disordered!

 

[PRmerger]

You’re right. Mea culpa. I had the dates given by Josephus off (I read CE as BCE).

Ah. So then there are indeed no secular sources which confirm Luke’s account of a census given during Jesus’ infancy?

 

[Per_Crucem]

Ah. So then there are indeed no secular sources which confirm Luke’s account of a census given during Jesus’ infancy?

Edwin and I were just talking about possible dates for it. That’s the only part in question, is getting it to all line up. But the census definitely happened.

 

[PRmerger]

Edwin and I were just talking about possible dates for it. That’s the only part in question, is getting it to all line up. But the census definitely happened.

The census definitely had a secular source that details its existence? The same one that Luke adverts to?

 

[Per_Crucem]

The census definitely had a secular source that details its existence? The same one that Luke adverts to?

Josephus’ Antiquities, the Acts of Augustus, and Tacitus’ Annals all make reference to either the census or to a census overseen by Quirinius.

 

[PRmerger]

Josephus’ Antiquities, the Acts of Augustus, and Tacitus’ Annals all make reference to either the census or to a census overseen by Quirinius.

 

[Mlon]

Mlon, don’t lie to yourself, this lie that you believe is from satan.

Ufam Tobie

I can take any verse in the bible and make it support a religious view point. You really have to read a lot into that verse to make the claim a priest has to make intercession for my sin. Let’s try this. What if I am a confessing Roman Catholic and I am ship wrecked on a deserted island with no chance of rescue. I pray each day to God and ask for forgiveness for my sins in the name of His son. According to RC theology I would not be saved since I do not have a priest to intercede for me.

 

[Per_Crucem]

But I think your point still stands, PR.

We can’t discount 2 Maccabees because of an apparent contradiction. Though I wonder if anyone has ever tried to resolve the different accounts of Antiochus’ death?

 

[benjohnson]

You post was made on 1380740220

PAH! You Catholics and your decimal integers. Unix time is supposed be in in hexidecimal as Martin Luther would have it. :choocho:

 

[Isaiah45_9]

PAH! You Catholics and your decimal integers. Unix time is supposed be in in hexidecimal as Martin Luther would have it. :choocho:

:doh2:

And here I thought I’d do you a favor, lol. I work in data recovery, which the file signatures we use are in hex… lol.

Ask and you shall receive:

524C6C7C

 

[Mlon]

It is very Catholic to say that the only mediator for our sins is Jesus Christ. Just like the only Father is God in heaven.

And just as all earthly fathers are icons or reflections of the One True Father, so, too, is all human mediation only an icon or reflection of the One True Mediator.

The intercession of the saints is only done through their union with the One Mediator, Jesus Christ.

No one ought attack you here, Mlon, but do expect refutations and rebuttals to what you present.

But please do not interpret charitable dialogue, questions to you and challenges with an attack on you.

Amen!

Except that you have followed a man-made tradition that says that God’s Word is contained only in the written word.

Catholicism professes to be a people of the Word–the Word of God, Jesus Christ. And His Word comes to us through 2 channels: Sacred Scripture AND Sacred Tradition.

And to believe that it is limited to only Sacred Scripture is to be duped into believing a man-made tradition.

Scripture never claims to be the ONLY channel of God’s Word.

I want to thank you for your thoughtful response to my post. In fact, your comments seem to be much more reasonably then other responses I have encountered. My reference to be attacked stemmed from an exchange I had with a RC in another site. When I posed some the same view points their response was to call me a heretic. My position is Roman Cathloics are my brothers and sisters in Christ. Just because we may have doctrine differences doesn’t mean we are enemies. If we all believe in the Holy Trinty and through the blood of Jesus we are saved, then we are united as believers.

We need to focus on the true enemy - Satan. He has had an all out assault against the RC church. The reason is the RC church is the symbol of our faith throughout the world. If it falls, we are fragmented. If you look at the world around us, it is deteriorating at a rapid rate. In fact, I never witnessed such a hatred toward Christ and his Church in my life time. Instead of pointing our fingers at each other, we should be opening our arms to the lost.

Finally, I enjoy and believe in a lively debate among my friends in Christ. Just as long it doesn’t resort into those same people telling me I’m going to hell because I do not follow their church.

Thanks!

 

[benjohnson]

But I think your point still stands, PR.

We can’t discount 2 Maccabees because of an apparent contradiction. Though I wonder if anyone has ever tried to resolve the different accounts of Antiochus’ death?

I agree…

I remember an idea form Kierkegaard that stuck in my head along the lines of “You can’t build faith by piling up historical facts.”

We have faith despite what we see, not because of what we see - every Sunday, I enter the house of God and have a foretaste of the feast to come. What I see are funny old ladies, a pastor that sings off-key, bread and wine, and infants crying.

But what I know I’m seeing is different than what my eye sees.

 

[benjohnson]

We need to focus on the true enemy - Satan. He has had an all out assault against the RC church.

Isn’t that the truth. And by politely and courteously sparing with our Catholic friends in Christ we build each other up in Christian faith and keep all our swords sharp for the old foe that assails us all in subtle ways and not so subtle.

 

[chero23]

I want to thank you for your thoughtful response to my post. In fact, your comments seem to be much more reasonably then other responses I have encountered. My reference to be attacked stemmed from an exchange I had with a RC in another site. When I posed some the same view points their response was to call me a heretic. My position is Roman Cathloics are my brothers and sisters in Christ. Just because we may have doctrine differences doesn’t mean we are enemies. If we all believe in the Holy Trinty and through the blood of Jesus we are saved, then we are united as believers.

We need to focus on the true enemy - Satan. He has had an all out assault against the RC church. The reason is the RC church is the symbol of our faith throughout the world. If it falls, we are fragmented. If you look at the world around us, it is deteriorating at a rapid rate. In fact, I never witnessed such a hatred toward Christ and his Church in my life time. Instead of pointing our fingers at each other, we should be opening our arms to the lost.

Finally, I enjoy and believe in a lively debate among my friends in Christ. Just as long it doesn’t resort into those same people telling me I’m going to hell because I do not follow their church.

Thanks!

You mentioned that Jesus is the only mediator, but in the paragraph, Paul wants us to pray for one another, if truly you see that as I can go straight to Jesus then why do protestants ask one another to pray for them. Their contradicting their own stance. On the contrary, that verse is saying the more we pray for each other, the chances of it getting answered is higher bc we have interceded for each other.

Remember in OT times there was no just me and God doctrine. Or me and my Torah, and God doctrine. In the NT, that wasn’t the case either. In James 5:16 it says that we must confess our sins to each other, you see God is a God for the people, he wants us to help each other out. A lot of Protestants have this Egocentric mentality and that is a false mentality. That is the reason why a lot of ppl become Atheist.

 

[Anglo_Trad]

Why do more Protestants not convert to the Church? Is the Sacrament of Penance (confession) a stumbling block to conversion? We see many Catholics no longer going to confession, and many others converting to Protestantism. Blaise Pascal several hundred years ago commented that he believed Confession was indeed a stumbling block to Protestant conversion.

Your thoughts?

Confession is no problem for me. I go on a regular basis.

What are the stumbling blocks for me? The main ones would be having to go to confession if I became a catholic because the Catholic Church doesn’t believe my priest can absolve my sins. Next would be the Catholic Church’s requirement for me to be confirmed. I consider myself to be valildly confirmed already. Then there’s the issue of papal supremacy. I don’t believe that the Bishop of Rome should have the jurisdiction over the entire church he claims. Those would be the main issues for me.

 

[chero23]

Confession is no problem for me. I go on a regular basis.

What are the stumbling blocks for me? The main ones would be having to go to confession if I became a catholic because the Catholic Church doesn’t believe my priest can absolve my sins. Next would be the Catholic Church’s requirement for me to be confirmed. I consider myself to be valildly confirmed already. Then there’s the issue of papal supremacy. I don’t believe that the Bishop of Rome should have the jurisdiction over the entire church he claims. Those would be the main issues for me.

I think that you have to understand that Confession can and only is permitted to those men who have apostolic succession. The Catholic Church can trace itself back to the time of the Apostles.

With the Pope, you just have to understand that you need 1 person in charge, no matter were your at. If you have 10 different ppl making decisions it can be chaotic. Besides the Early Church Fathers speak of the importance of the Bishop of Rome and his role as leader of the entire church

 

[Anglo_Trad]

I think that you have to understand that Confession can and only is permitted to those men who have apostolic succession. The Catholic Church can trace itself back to the time of the Apostles.

I agree with what you are saying. Where we differ is that I believe that my priest has valid orders.

With the Pope, you just have to understand that you need 1 person in charge, no matter were your at. If you have 10 different ppl making decisions it can be chaotic. Besides the Early Church Fathers speak of the importance of the Bishop of Rome and his role as leader of the entire church

There does not have to be one person in charge. The Anglican and Orthodox churches function perfectly well without that model of ecclesiology.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

I agree with what you are saying. Where we differ is that I believe that my priest has valid orders.

There does not have to be one person in charge. The Anglican and Orthodox churches function perfectly well without that model of ecclesiology.

Regarding not having one person in charge, on an organizational level I’m sure it works but you have the downside of making definitive Magisterial teaching more difficult to define and schism practically impossible to identify.

 

[Anglo_Trad]

Regarding not having one person in charge, on an organizational level I’m sure it works but you have the downside of making definitive Magisterial teaching more difficult to define and schism practically impossible to identify.

I do not understand why it is not possible without a single person in charge. This is not how things are done in the Eastern Orthodox churches. They are not considered by the Catholic Church to be heretical therefore they must, without single person in charge, be able to make decisions regarding definitive teachings. Similarly they had no difficulty in deciding that the Western Patriarchate was in schism.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

I do not understand why it is not possible without a single person in charge. This is not how things are done in the Eastern Orthodox churches. They are not considered by the Catholic Church to be heretical therefore they must, without single person in charge, be able to make decisions regarding definitive teachings. Similarly they had no difficulty in deciding that the Western Patriarchate was in schism.

What I mean is that they are, for example, entirely unable to hold an ecumenical council for lack of any standard by which its ecumenical nature could be universally recognized. Likewise there can be no equivalent of a Papal encyclical or anything of that nature, as there is no Patriarch with authority to teach the whole Church.

As for schism being unidentifiable, obviously when a schism occurs each side will think it is the right one. What I meant is there is no objective standard for determining who is in communion and who is out, other than a vague concept of “orthodox doctrine” which every Christian presumably believes themselves to have. Lack of a single unmistakable point of unity allows any side of a dispute to simply say “I’m right, therefore it is you who are cast out of the Church not me.”