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Eric_Hilbert
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Put this thread in the “Hot Topics” for the week (you know, that email ya’ll ignore? 
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So be nice.
)So be nice.
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EIF5A
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Isn’t Christ our Advocate now?
The example with Job doesn’t contradict praying to Christ directly.
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EIF5A
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Christ is not the Catholic Church.Indeed.
It must be noted that it is no more arrogant to say, “Outside of the Catholic Church there is no salvation” than it is to say, “Outside of Christ there is no salvation.”
Either they both are utter declarations of hubris…
OR…
both are NOT declarations of arrogance.
Even the Church doesn’t say where the limit of God’s grace and mercy is for salvation.
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PRmerger
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It is a parallel that I have been articulating.
If I say, “The Catholic Church is no more against the poor than it is against criminals”, you would be incorrect to say, “But the poor are not criminals”. No one has posited that they are.
Ok.
This means what, in the context of this discussion?
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StevenFrancis
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The common objections of Protestants, and the answers to those objections found in Roman Catholicism, in addition to the Holy Eucharist, and the sacrament of reconciliation were all attractants for me during my conversion process TO the Catholic Church. Reading history, you can see some justification for what SHOULD have been a movement of “rebuilding His Church”, as St. Francis had done once before, and the Church fathers had done before Him when tackling all of the worlds various heresies. I can find no justification for a continuation of protestant churches to still be operating in the 21st century. I just don’t “get it”.
Having said this, I know for a fact that there are many deeply sincere lovers of Jesus Christ who are not Catholic, and there are many Catholics who are protestant in their belief system, and are really Catholics by self-identification only. These are the ones who leave eventually, would be my guess. The Catholics who go don’t want to accept the fullness of the Christian faith. They want to find a church which conforms to their own comfort zone ideas about Christianity. The ones to do finally convert from protestant faith traditions, as well as the Catholics who “revert” give wide varieties of reasons for their actions.
The sacrament of reconciliation may be one of those Catholic beliefs which bothers some. I don’t know why. Next to the Holy Eucharist, I’m hard pressed to think of a more beautiful and necessary sacrament. I think it may boil down to the simple fear of saying our sins out loud to another human being, even if that person is in “persona Christi”, and acting as Christ for you. Even in 12 step programs for recovery, this seems to be the hardest part of a persons recovery process, and it is often overlooked or skipped by all but the most sincere addicts wishing to get well. The process challenges us. It’s humiliating on it’s face. Especially if there are recurrent sins of the same type. Many Catholics simply don’t do it. They rationalize it, that they have ability to pick and choose which steps in the sanctification process are real, and worth their doing, and which ones they’d rather not do.
Addicts who do this, don’t get well. Christians who do this end up eating and drinking judgement upon themselves, or at a minimum, negate the sanctifying grace of the Holy Eucharist.
All the sacraments work together. They all have their place, and their purpose. It is why Jesus instituted them. If you’re proposing that the Church might be more popular if She tossed out some of the sacraments, well, who knows? Maybe She would be. But then She wouldn’t be efficacious in Her mission and work. More bottoms in pews, doesn’t help anyone if the the Church isn’t doing what Christ wants Her to do regarding salvation.
Just my thoughts on the subject. Not aimed at the OP, nor any other particular poster.
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EIF5A
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Salvation only found in the Catholic Church…?It is a parallel that I have been articulating.
If I say, “The Catholic Church is no more against the poor than it is against criminals”, you would be incorrect to say, “But the poor are not criminals”. No one has posited that they are.
Ok.
This means what, in the context of this discussion?
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PRmerger
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Yes. That is a Truth proclaimed by Christ through His Apostles.
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EIF5A
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I don’t think humiliation is the biggest issue but it’s certainly something that would cause hesitation, much to the delight of the devil who wants to keep us sick and paralyzed. Accepting a priest as “christ” is seen as contradictory to Scripture. Anyway, there were no Christian priests for Christ to hypothetically command,“Confess your sins to priests”, which would allow the Protestant conscience to confess to a person. But Christ went up to Heaven before the Church can be more fully developed by the guidance of the Holy Spirit. And Protestants don’t believe in Tradition…so…back to square one.
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EIF5A
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How does the Church define Catholic Church and who is included?
Are the Orthodox included?
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Mlon
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PRmerger
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Yes, the Orthodox are included, even if they are in schism.
Anyone baptized in the Triune formula with water is joined, although imperfectly, to the CC.
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PRmerger
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What was asked of you, Mlon, was to provide some Scriptural support for your belief that “whether or not one is forgiven for their sins is by their relationship with Christ.” Chapter and verse for this please.
And for verses which state that your verses constitute the “overall message” of the gospel.
NB: I am not asking for verses which you think are the “overall message”. For another Christian could pick and choose an entirely different set of Scripture verses and state, “These are what encompass the overall message of the Bible”.
I am asking for verses which state: “This is the overall message of the gospel”.
That the “overall message” is 'implied" is fine. As long as you are ok with Catholics using this paradigm to say that “Doctrine A” is also implied.
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Isaiah45_9
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pocohombre
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Is that like asking how can you believe anything from the OT magisterium, or the Jewish nation/religion and their Holy Writ because in fact they crucified their/our Savior ?
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pocohombre
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Sorry pablope,couldn’t help think of the hypertechnicality in not seeing how remission of our sins is not somehow connected to how we relate to Christ.
I am sure it is somewhere in scripture and anyone’s cathechism.
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Reuben_J
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He is asking for the chapter and verse where this is in the Bible.
Saying is one thing, providing source for one belief is another and this is what he wants to know. Is it from the Bible or not? if not, from where does it come from?
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pocohombre
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If one were to be technical, Job was not a priest. Furthermore they sacrificed the offering “themselves” with Job interceding. Was Job really righteous ? Did he speak perfectly? Was he not rebuked ? Did he not repent, as we have all repented who are in Christ and His righteousness ? Can we not all intercede for one another, confess our faults one to another, as per scripture ? Are we not like Job, a kingdom of reconcilers interceders, priests? Where do you get that this represents the Levitical priesthood in OT which turns into NT priesthood (apart from lay priesthood) ? I thought something more perfect has come, that the old testament and it’s priesthood is fullfilled and replaced with new testament and new priesthood(all believers). Anyways, Job is cool and what we get is that because of “gained”, imputed righteousness he reconciled, prayed for others- something quite universal for both Catholic and otherwise, in their own ways.
Question: Why did God, who spoke directly to Eliphaz, not just forgive him directly? And why did God order him to go through Job?
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Reuben_J
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In other word, it is a Bible interpretation, an exegesis. hmm … .
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PRmerger
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Well, you are correct.
I *don’t *believe anything from the OT magisterium and their Holy Writ. At least, not on their authority.
I believe it because of Christ’s authority that he bestowed upon His Apostles.
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