Stumbling Block for Protestants?

[Jon_S_1]

Ah, I gotcha.

Well, God used this Church to help me find the family and friends I had been praying for. Since then, whenever we have something going on in our lives we get together and pray for eachother, read Scripture and Worship God.

My Church is also very deep in apologetics, we are taught to learn the Bible inside and out so that we can soundly discuss our beliefs with anyone. What we do is we casually hang out and talk to people who are willing to talk to us and give them the Gospel of John to read. We aren’t radical though, sometimes we’ll just hang out on the steps of a busy centre and if anyone passes by we politely ask them if they would like a free book.

We don’t fight or argue, we just want to show others we love them. We go to the homeless and talk about Jesus to then, we feed them and continue on. My now fiance goes to Africa and Romania on missions trips, spreading the Gospel, building wells, Churches, schools etc.

The Church has large prayer meetings and asks nothing in return but for us to pray and worship God. I would say since December over 500 people have been Baptized. There is just so much good that comes from this Church, and it’s obviously being influenced by the Holy Spirit.

Why do you think these things do not happen in Catholic Churches?

If it was not at your nearest parish try another one. I was at an Evangelical Mega Church For many years (ever heard of Chuck Swindoll, Mike Erre.)

I saw many good things, many conversions, but never did I see the authentic faith lived out, the compassion for the marginalized and true community till I went to the Catholic Church.

Keep seeking the truth, don’t settle for comfort and familiarity over truth!

 

[Jon_S_1]

My reason kind of was looked over so I want to explain again.

I’ve been trying to join the CC but I feel like God wants me to stay in the Church that I’m in. The genuine love I see from everyone whether it be towards me or towards others. The amount I have learned and continue to learn. Just everything seems to point me back to my Church that I honestly love. I had tears in my eyes praising God yesterday with all the believers there, I just love God so much. Why does it seem He really wants me to stay in the Church He brought me to nine months ago?

I have since met the love of my life through this Church and proposed to her on Saturday, she said yes. God has blessed me so much through this Church, I just can’t grasp that He would want me to be Catholic.

I had lots of emotional worship experiences in my evangelical church, met my wife, dedicated my kids, had lots of friends, was being “fed” at least to the evangelical limits. Lots of tears and memories.

That doesn’t mean it was what God wanted for me.

If it was about me, and how it made me feel, I’d still be there, but I think you know, it is about God and how he wants to be worshiped, about doing what he commands, about having the Eucharist, and the Sacraments.

As you prepare for marriage, there is nothing more beautiful than the Catholic Sacrament and the spiritual truths in the Catholic doctrine on marriage.

Imagine if Hillsong United, was dropped in Sinai, while Moses was wondering with the Israelites in the desert. As they constructed the ark and the temple as God commanded. Down pops a rock band (whom I love) and a energetic preacher. Do you think the Israelites would prefer that experience? Would it make them feel good, even feel close to God? Should they have abandoned temple worship? Would that please God?

This is all part of your discernment, keep it up and keep seeking! I will be praying for you!

 

[Brandall]

I had lots of emotional worship experiences in my evangelical church, met my wife, dedicated my kids, had lots of friends, was being “fed” at least to the evangelical limits. Lots of tears and memories.

That doesn’t mean it was what God wanted for me.

If it was about me, and how it made me feel, I’d still be there, but I think you know, it is about God and how he wants to be worshiped, about doing what he commands, about having the Eucharist, and the Sacraments.

As you prepare for marriage, there is nothing more beautiful than the Catholic Sacrament and the spiritual truths in the Catholic doctrine on marriage.

Imagine if Hillsong United, was dropped in Sinai, while Moses was wondering with the Israelites in the desert. As they constructed the ark and the temple as God commanded. Down pops a rock band (whom I love) and a energetic preacher. Do you think the Israelites would prefer that experience? Would it make them feel good, even feel close to God? Should they have abandoned temple worship? Would that please God?

This is all part of your discernment, keep it up and keep seeking! I will be praying for you!

This, yes this, is why I’m in RCIA. From the first mass (as an adult) that I attended, in seeking a better way, I knew I had found a better way. Thanks so much for putting into words, so eloquently, what I’ve been feeling in my soul.

 

[PastorVW]

As a Free Methodist minister, I would like to address the OP’s question as best I can. Before I do so, I should say that as a Wesleyan (theologically), many Catholic doctrines are either less of a problem than for my Calvinist friends, or are no problem at all. This will become apparent as I progress through the issues.

Confession: In all honesty, we seem to have thrown the baby out with the bathwater here. We tend to never preach that we need to “confess our sins to each other and so fulfill the law of Christ.” Still, as pastors, our people come to us with their confessions, especially when the sin is great. That said, I do not see the Catholic system of confession in Scripture.

Worship of the Saints: This usually comes from a misunderstanding of Catholic teaching at this point - largely a misunderstanding of the word “prayer” that confuses it with the word “worship”. Anyone who understands the true teaching knows this is not the case. Again, I do not see prayer to the Saints in Scripture - but it is not idolatry, at least not in Church’s teaching.

Salvation by works: More of a problem for Calvinists who believe in unconditional eternal security than those of us who believe in conditional eternal security. Most evangelicals would say, “We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone.” Not far off from Catholic teaching on this point. Both believe that saving faith requires a transformed life. Both believe that we are saved by Grace. Neither believes that we can merit salvation by our own works, apart from Grace.

Biblical authority: Here, IMHO is the biggest stumbling block of all. If tradition and church teaching are of equal authority to Scripture, than most if not all issues are resolved. If the only authority is Scripture, than - IMHO - Catholic doctrine is incorrect in many matters, although - again IMHO - none of them are essential to salvation.

Most Protestant evangelicals have no place in their belief system for tradition, although they do have, in most cases a place for reason. So, when Catholics appeal to it, it seems to them to be an attack upon the inspiration and authority of Holy Scripture. Nothing means more to us than God’s Word.

I am a bit less put off, because as Wesleyans we believe that Scripture contains everything need for salvation, but not everything of value in guiding Christian belief. In regards to “essential to salvation” - think of the Catholic standard for determining if a group is Christian or not… In our view, Scripture has the higher authority and may correct anything below. Below Scripture - on equal levels - are reason and tradition. At the bottom is experience, which may be corrected by all three, Thus, I have often warned my flock (before I retired), that if someone says, “I have a new teaching from Scripture that no one has ever seen before” to not believe it - because if no one has ever seen it in 2,000 years, it almost certainly isn’t there. Yet, because we find place for tradition we value such things as the Apostle’s Creed.

That said, I am not convinced that the Church - Catholic or the ENTIRE Church composed of all believers - has authority equal to Scripture. Is the Church a witness to Scripture? Yes, absolutely. Did God entrust the Church with the preservation of Scripture? Yes,absolutely. Did the original Apostles of the Church write the New Testament under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit? Unquestionably. Does any of this place the Church on the same level as Scripture? No way. If it did, than logically the Catholic Church would follow the “Mormon model” and continue to produce Scripture. To the Catholic Church’s credit, you do not do this.

Finally, I have to say that I have great respect for the Catholic church. The most recent Popes have been inspirational to all believers, even if some Protestants don’t want to admit it. They have also been very gracious towards us, and I have no problem responding in return. I have worshiped in Catholic churches many times and I will do so again. We are brothers and sisters in Christ, headed for the same destination, so we should work toward loving and understanding each other.

Grace and Peace,

Pastor Vince

 

[Porknpie]

If it was about me, and how it made me feel, I’d still be there, but I think you know, it is about God and how he wants to be worshiped, about doing what he commands, about having the Eucharist, and the Sacraments.

 

[Porknpie]

Wonderful hello Pastor !

Salvation by works: More of a problem for Calvinists who believe in unconditional eternal security than those of us who believe in conditional eternal security. Most evangelicals would say, “We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone.” Not far off from Catholic teaching on this point. Both believe that saving faith requires a transformed life. Both believe that we are saved by Grace. Neither believes that we can merit salvation by our own works, apart from Grace.

We are saved by Grace, through Faith, working in Love. We can not be saved by works. That is a misconception of Catholic teaching.

Biblical authority: Here, IMHO is the biggest stumbling block of all. If tradition and church teaching are of equal authority to Scripture, than most if not all issues are resolved. If the only authority is Scripture, than - IMHO - Catholic doctrine is incorrect in many matters, although - again IMHO - none of them are essential to salvation.

Christ established a Church before there was any Written Word. We both agree that the bible is the inspired and inerrant Word of God…may I ask two questions?

1. how do you know that the 66 books in your bible are all inspired and inerrant and that books outside of the bible haven’t been excluded that are?
2. by what authority do you only have 66 books and not 73…(the original KJV had 73)/

Most Protestant evangelicals have no place in their belief system for tradition, although they do have, in most cases a place for reason.

Sure they have tradition. They have enormous traditions that are man-made and not originating from Christ to the apostles (obvious variants by denomination below)

• they only have 66 books in their bible, missing 7
• they believe in baptism delayed to the age of reason
• they believe in symbolic baptism
• they only believe in baptism by immersion
• they believe the Eucharist is symbolic
• they believe in once saved, always saved
• they believe in an invisible Church
• they believe in alter calls
• they believe in the rapture, that Christ will come twice
• they believe in Sola Scriptura
  etc, etc.

None of the above have their origin in what Christ taught the apostles and what the apostles taught their descendants. They are all 100% man-made traditions, the core problem being that they view the Written Word apart from the apostolic faith that produced it and from the Church that guarded and protected it from when it was written.

They have lost reason by turning from Christ’s Church. Christ promised to send the Holy Spirit to guide his Church to all Truth and to be with his Church until the end of time. The points above only highlight the mass confusion sola scriptura and sola fide have brought to man-kind. 40,000 Christian denominations serve as proof … it can not be reasoned with Christ’s words in scripture that he would guide his Church to all Truth.

Reason illuminates faith but one must reason correctly with an enlighten intellect.

PnP

 

[TexanKnight]

I have talked to several people who claim the Catholic Church is just too hard. Standards are too high. Much easier to go to a protestant church where all you have to do is believe to be saved, you cannot lose your salvation, and you do not have to confess to anyone.

 

[PRmerger]

So if you make a mistake you can lose your authority ?

I am confused–are you of the position that the Jewish “magisterium” has any authority for Christians?

I will answer the above question when I understand your position regarding Jewish authority for Christians.

 

[Brandall]

I have talked to several people who claim the Catholic Church is just too hard. Standards are too high. Much easier to go to a protestant church where all you have to do is believe to be saved, you cannot lose your salvation, and you do not have to confess to anyone.

Converting is indeed difficult when you have an already busy life. But, it has been a joyous burden as I’ve learned so much. Not just about the Catholic Church but Christianity in general.

As far as not losing your salvation, either you can or you can’t. It’s not true one way at one church and true the opposite way at another church. Even if you’re not sure, it would seem prudent to act like you can and attempt to live that way to the best you’re able.

 

[dronald]

It’s not about me at all, it’s about the two couples in the past two weeks. One of whom did not know Christ and another who had left Him. My fiance, myself and a couple friends are seeing one couple quickly come to know Christ. They had no friends and the husband was a childhood friend of mine, I can’t switch Churches because quite frankly I don’t think God wants me to. If God wanted me in a Catholic Church He would (or will one day) make it clear. But so far for me it’s been extremely clear that He wants me where I am right now.

 

[Brandall]

It’s not about me at all, it’s about the two couples in the past two weeks. One of whom did not know Christ and another who had left Him. My fiance, myself and a couple friends are seeing one couple quickly come to know Christ. They had no friends and the husband was a childhood friend of mine, I can’t switch Churches because quite frankly I don’t think God wants me to. If God wanted me in a Catholic Church He would (or will one day) make it clear. But so far for me it’s been extremely clear that He wants me where I am right now.

I’m glad you’re happy and feel needed. My wife and daughter attend a mega-church and seem fairly happy there. What with the plays, professional musicians and what not, who wouldn’t be?

As for me, I don’t see a lot of “There” there. All that overproduced “show” just tends to make up for the emptiness. Church should be more about worshiping and learning about god, not off Broadway entertainment. Please take no offense because I am just saying how I feel about where my wife goes to church. I grew up in a medium sized Baptist church and loved it there. There were other problems that caused me to look elsewhere.

As far as where God wants you, you might be right, you might be wrong. For nearly a year, I had planned to enter RCIA this August. Then over the summer, a friend that I had known for more than 40 years came back to pastor the Baptist Church of my youth. It took weeks for me to make a decision but I’m certain the decision I made was the right one. I’ve learned more in a bit over a month at the Catholic Church in RCIA than I learned in the previous 52 years. Yes, a lot of it is Catholic and regarding the church but most of it was about God, Jesus and the theology behind the church.

Do I wish I was at the Baptist Church, supporting my friend and that church I love? Absolutely! But I made a decision and it was correct. If I had gone to that Baptist Church, I would have been happy and see it start to rebuild, but I would have missed what I’m gaining.

I’ve always told my children that sometimes in life, you have hard decisions that regardless of what you choose, there will be regret. This was one of those moments for me.

 

[Jon_S_1]

It’s not about me at all, it’s about the two couples in the past two weeks. One of whom did not know Christ and another who had left Him. My fiance, myself and a couple friends are seeing one couple quickly come to know Christ. They had no friends and the husband was a childhood friend of mine, I can’t switch Churches because quite frankly I don’t think God wants me to. If God wanted me in a Catholic Church He would (or will one day) make it clear. But so far for me it’s been extremely clear that He wants me where I am right now.

I have no doubts Christ works in your church. I have no doubts Christ has used you there.

That does not mean the fullness of Christian truth lies there.

I would simply encourage you to continue seeking him, and don’t be afraid to make hard decisions.

I hope your fiancé is open to the idea of you becoming Catholic. As a wife who truly loves her husband she should desire your best even if it’s hard.

I know you have tasted the truth, keep your mind open and your heart on HIM maybe next year you will bring ten people with you.

 

[dronald]

I’m glad you’re happy and feel needed. My wife and daughter attend a mega-church and seem fairly happy there. What with the plays, professional musicians and what not, who wouldn’t be?

As for me, I don’t see a lot of “There” there. All that overproduced “show” just tends to make up for the emptiness. Church should be more about worshiping and learning about god, not off Broadway entertainment. Please take no offense because I am just saying how I feel about where my wife goes to church. I grew up in a medium sized Baptist church and loved it there. There were other problems that caused me to look elsewhere.

I don’t take offence because I can understand your opinion of some of the Mega Churches out there. Some are extremely deep in Theology (which I hope is the case for your wife and daughter) teaching morals, the Bible whether it be it’s geography or deeper meanings of passages, etc. And yes, some (like mine) do missions trips, feed the homeless, alcoholic counselling (free) marriage counselling (free) young adults, youth groups, bible studies, prayer meetings and modern music.

I have no doubts Christ works in your church. I have no doubts Christ has used you there.

That does not mean the fullness of Christian truth lies there.

I would simply encourage you to continue seeking him, and don’t be afraid to make hard decisions.

I hope your fiancé is open to the idea of you becoming Catholic. As a wife who truly loves her husband she should desire your best even if it’s hard.

I know you have tasted the truth, keep your mind open and your heart on HIM maybe next year you will bring ten people with you.

She will do whatever I do; if I converted to Catholicism she would convert with me. She’s been extremely worried but very supportive in whatever I decide. She doesn’t think the way I do, I get extremely stressed about whether I’m doing what’s right in God’s eyes, believing the right Religion, worshiping Him properly, etc. I study history and I study the Bible like crazy. My Fiance simply loves God with all her heart and just wants to do right by others. She’s not interested in stressing over everything, she just trusts in God and loves Him. She’s a much better person than I am, I can tell you that.

We’ll see what the future holds.

 

[Mlon]

True, dat.

But I don’t think you have any authority to determine when exegesis vs eisegesis is being utilized.

Indeed. But that appears to be what you have been doing: saying something is “implied” while not offering any Scriptural reference for how you came to determine that these particular verses constitute the “overall message”.

Incidentally, the Catholic Church has NEVER built doctrine from Scripture, vague or otherwise.

The CC was whole and entire before a single word of the NT was ever put to writ.

We do not glean our doctrines from Scripture.

Rather, the Scriptures reflect our doctrines, which came before any word of the NT was placed on papyrus.

Well, that’s what the CAFs is all about–going back and forth, right?

I can’t imagine that you would come to a discussion forum and not want to discuss.

That’s kind of like going to a Cruciverbalist Convention and then saying, “Well, you can do your crossword puzzles. I’ll give you the last word on that!” /QUOTE

I will offer the same challenge you have presented to me, although unless I am missing your point I thought I answered, can you provide scriptural evidence my soul is lost unless I confess my sins to a priest. That’s what this whole discussion is about. I said the message of the bible is the relational nature between us and God. One cannot argue that the bible is God revealing Himself to a fallen humanity to establish a relationship with them. If it’s not, then please explain it to me so I can learn.

 

[pocohombre]

Why do you think these things do not happen in Catholic Churches?

If it was not at your nearest parish try another one. I was at an Evangelical Mega Church For many years (ever heard of Chuck Swindoll, Mike Erre.)

I saw many good things, many conversions, but never did I see the authentic faith lived out, the compassion for the marginalized and true community till I went to the Catholic Church.

Keep seeking the truth, don’t settle for comfort and familiarity over truth!

Did you attend a church pastored by Swindoll ?

 

[pocohombre]

I am confused–are you of the position that the Jewish “magisterium” has any authority for Christians?

I will answer the above question when I understand your position regarding Jewish authority for Christians.

I guess we missed the connection. No ,the ot is the ot and we is in the new. Without going back I think you asked why leave a church that gave so much truth, truth that I rest in, and how could it be wrong on anything major enough to leave it ? Or that protestants may be illogical for being so resting on scripture that CC gave us. Something like that. So, do we not believe in many of the ot writings and traditions etc ? Of course we do. Yet that faith, that religion, that nation, congregation etc., etc., crucified Christ. Major mistake enough, even though Israel got so many things right, things we rest on (we have been grafted in) .

 

[Jon_S_1]

Did you attend a church pastored by Swindoll ?

Yes I attended the First Evangelical Free Church of Fullerton for 30 years. It is the Church Swindoll became “big” in before he left to Dallas Theological Seminary. I continued in that church through the entirety of the next pastor H. Dale Burke, and left during the transition between Burke and Mike Erre (Erre was a big Saddleback (Rick Warren) and Rock Harbor Pastor).

 

[Jon_S_1]

I will offer the same challenge you have presented to me, although unless I am missing your point I thought I answered, can you provide scriptural evidence my soul is lost unless I confess my sins to a priest.

The authority of the church to settle doctrine and bind followers-

Matt 18

15 “If your brother or sister** sins,[c] go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’[d] 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

18 “Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be[e] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[f] loosed in heaven.

1 John 1:9

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

(It does not say “in your heart” and the early church practiced Confession with the Apostles and Bishops as is even seen in John 20)

Acts 19:18

Also many of those who were now believers came, confessing and divulging their practices.

2 Corinthians 5

All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling[c] the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

Please note that “Confession” is called the “Sacrament of Reconciliation”. Here Paul is emploring the people to utilize this ministry. Note that Christ entrusted this message to the Apostles (and successeor bishops)**

 

[PastorVW]

I have talked to several people who claim the Catholic Church is just too hard. Standards are too high. Much easier to go to a protestant church where all you have to do is believe to be saved, you cannot lose your salvation, and you do not have to confess to anyone.

I would say that ANY church that makes walking with Christ EASY, is either apostate or no church at all. The call to follow Christ in the Scripture is a call to total commitment - and it is NEVER really “easy”.

That said, there are churches that preach that all you have to do is believe - and than fail to teach what Biblical belief really is. However, they are a minority, even among Calvinists.

One has to wonder what is being preached at such a church. Why is the congregation not being challenged to live out their faith in the world? (Never easy.) I hope and pray that if that person were in my congregation that they would find my church anything but EASY. The last time I covered for our Pastor, I preached on “finishing well” - focusing upon whet you will leave behind and being ready to face God. I had people tell me how personally challenging this was for them, and then thank me for having the guts to preach on it. That’s how all sermons, or Catholic homilies should be.

 

[pocohombre]

Yes I attended the First Evangelical Free Church of Fullerton for 30 years. It is the Church Swindoll became “big” in before he left to Dallas Theological Seminary. I continued in that church through the entirety of the next pastor H. Dale Burke, and left during the transition between Burke and Mike Erre (Erre was a big Saddleback (Rick Warren) and Rock Harbor Pastor).

Cool. I love His radio ministry. Don’t know about the other guys. Just as one Catholic parish priest is different from another, I suppose also here, for I am not too keen on Warren stuff.