Stumbling Block for Protestants?

[Jon_S_1]

Trust me. You or I would not want to go back to the way it was before the reformation. As C.S. Lewis said ,“Those ignorant of the history are slaves to the recent past”. The last hundred years, even the 2nd Vatican has given great strides towards unity and toleration and understanding. It took centuries after Luther to allow a Catholic church at one end of main street and a Protestant at the other.

But Poco !
CS Lewis is advocating not being ignorant if history, and yet 90% of Protestants are ignorant if history before 1500 and are slaves to the last 175 years of Protestant doctrinal changes (insert Rapture here as example)

 

[pocohombre]

I would like you to answer this Poco
If I want to inquire what the Bible teaches about abortion. What would you tell me.
And also.
Why should I believe your interpretation over anyone else’s ?

Here is what I am preaching. What are the possible sources for truth in any matter? Hint-someone once asked, “Whom do men say that I am ?” Who can teach us truth ?

 

[Jon_S_1]

Here is what I am preaching. What are the possible sources for truth in any matter? Hint-someone once asked, “Whom do men say that I am ?” Who can teach us truth ?

And so if I read the Bible fervently and pray fervently and determine acceptance of abortion is the compassionate thing that the Bible leads me to then I am right.

Right?

 

[pocohombre]

But Poco !
CS Lewis is advocating not being ignorant if history, and yet 90% of Protestants are ignorant if history before 1500 and are slaves to the last 175 years of Protestant doctrinal changes (insert Rapture here as example)

Rest from your easy assertions of all the ills of protestantism. The ills are real, and would easily turn off many. They at least do not claim infallibility. It is a miracle that anyone is Protestant. We are as ugly as the twelve brothers who later became twelve tribes in OT. Have you read their escapades ? Yet, by God’s grace God’s end was met. I will agree Catholicism has a nice “package”, very attractive and very,very appealing.

 

[pocohombre]

And so if I read the Bible fervently and pray fervently and determine acceptance of abortion is the compassionate thing that the Bible leads me to then I am right.

Right?

No,except for self righteousness on the matter.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Rest from your easy assertions of all the ills of protestantism. The ills are real, and would easily turn off many. They at least do not claim infallibility. It is a miracle that anyone is Protestant. We are as ugly as the twelve brothers who later became twelve tribes in OT. Have you read their escapades ? Yet, by God’s grace God’s end was met. I will agree Catholicism has a nice “package”, very attractive and very,very appealing.

Remember the 12 tribes were in union and worshiped under the authority of prophets, priests, and Kings…not individuals.

 

[Jon_S_1]

No,except for self righteousness on the matter.

???

 

[PRmerger]

No,except for self righteousness on the matter.

So it’s not from the Bible alone that one can come to truth, but from reading the Bible within a certain lens of truth, right?

 

[PRmerger]

I talked about the “whatever”-important element that should not be missed-8-9 posts earlier (PR)

And I am still unclear as to how you know that the 27 book canon of the NT is correct, without submitting to the authority of the CC.

Could you please explain that again to me?

 

[misskay56]

I haven’t read any threads recently from this site, because when I read the things that “Protestants” and non-believers say about Catholics, I shutter, because I feel that many who are not members of the Catholic faith say things out of ignorance. I don’t know of any Catholics who pray to statues or paintings of Mary and Jesus. Yes we have them, but the reason for them is for them are far from the reasons that others quoting. Yes, we pray to Mary, but we ask her to pray FOR US. Everyone in heaven prays for us, all the angels and saints. Learn the history of the Church and the reasoning behind our faith before you pass on lies. You pass on the lies and don’t even know it. I will say this though, I think that each interpretation of the bible and Jesus’s teachings are basically the same. Whether you are Catholic or Protestant and you confess Jesus as your Lord and Savior then you too will be a saint the day you enter into heaven.

 

[stewstew03]

And I am still unclear as to how you know that the 27 book canon of the NT is correct, without submitting to the authority of the CC.

Could you please explain that again to me?

And… How is it the Church got the NT right, but the OT wrong? Were the Councils only partially filled with the Spirit, while Martin Luther received a full tank?

 

[pocohombre]

Remember the 12 tribes were in union and worshiped under the authority of prophets, priests, and Kings…not individuals.

Israel did not reflect Catholic authority either. One must also consider there were different authority structures during Israel’s long history. There is union and authority in Orthodox and Protestants. There must be some unifying criteria to be considered "Protestant’, otherwise how would you know to call them such ? Also you might be confusing “individual” experience and revelation with being part of the corporate Body. They happen simultaneously. It is not “one or the other”.

 

[pocohombre]

So it’s not from the Bible alone that one can come to truth, but from reading the Bible within a certain lens of truth, right?

Close. I think I asked for the different sources of truth we are blessed with and what is really needed, and hinted to some scripture between Jesus and the apostles ( "Whom do men say that I am ?). You would have to be more specific with what is a “certain lens”.

 

[pocohombre]

???

What is the shrug ? You said if one (protestant) were to pray, read and conclude abortion ok, then it is. I said no, and all the person has is a self-righteous view on the matter. That the revelation derives from the flesh (self).

 

[Jon_S_1]

What is the shrug ? You said if one (protestant) were to pray, read and conclude abortion ok, then it is. I said no, and all the person has is a self-righteous view on the matter. That the revelation derives from the flesh (self).

Well what happens when entire churches and denominations believe this is what the Bible means and what Christians should practice?

What gives you the right to claim to know better than them?

What authority do you or your church or your denomination have to correct them?

Perhaps they tell you that you have the self righteous view and lack compassion for women in tough positions.

 

[pocohombre]

Can you give an example of doctrines the Catholic Church has changed…ever?

There are several forms of change. One is saying it is “a” then saying it is "“b”. Another is saying allowing “a” and "b’ then allowing only “a”. For instance Marion doctrine falls into the latter with the The Assumption and the Immaculate Conception. As you know for millenia you could believe it true or not, or have varied forms of “thought” be acceptable. Now since 1854 and1950 it can only be one way. That is a type of change. One day you believe Mary was like all in that “all have sinned and fall short”. The next day you must believe she was born without original sin. .It should be noted that the Church when making a decree for the first time will begin by saying that the church has always taught what is about to be decreed. So, it is pretty hard to tell a Catholic that purgatory or auditory confession is a “change”…It is also argued that practices and tradition may change but not the doctrines behind them .There does come a point to me that though that after so much change it does show a subtle dogma change. One may insist that there have been no doctrinal changes but it hides from the fact that practices show true colors, and in my opinion many of Her practices of today are not what they were “yesterday”, nor apostolic. Nor are Orthodox and Protestants perfect here either.

 

[PRmerger]

Close. I think I asked for the different sources of truth we are blessed with and what is really needed, and hinted to some scripture between Jesus and the apostles ( "Whom do men say that I am ?). You would have to be more specific with what is a “certain lens”.

The Catholic answer is: through the lens of the Church which gave us these Scriptures.

I’m not sure what your answer is. What lens is the correct lens for you, poco, that tells you that one cannot read the Bible and conclude that abortion is moral? What lens is the correct lens that tells you that one cannot read the Bible and conclude that Jesus is not God but the son of God? What lens is the correct lens that tells you that one cannot read the Bible and conclude that Saturday is the day of worship, not Sunday?

What lens is the correct one for you? Where do you get it? Who has it and can give it to you and your children?

 

[Jon_S_1]

There are several forms of change. One is saying it is “a” then saying it is "“b”. Another is saying allowing “a” and "b’ then allowing only “a”. For instance Marion doctrine falls into the latter with the The Assumption and the Immaculate Conception. As you know for millenia you could believe it true or not, or have varied forms of “thought” be acceptable. Now since 1854 and1950 it can only be one way. That is a type of change. One day you believe Mary was like all in that “all have sinned and fall short”. The next day you must believe she was born without original sin. .It should be noted that the Church when making a decree for the first time will begin by saying that the church has always taught what is about to be decreed. So, it is pretty hard to tell a Catholic that purgatory or auditory confession is a “change”…It is also argued that practices and tradition may change but not the doctrines behind them .There does come a point to me that though that after so much change it does show a subtle dogma change. One may insist that there have been no doctrinal changes but it hides from the fact that practices show true colors, and in my opinion many of Her practices of today are not what they were “yesterday”, nor apostolic. Nor are Orthodox and Protestants perfect here either.

So really no changes.

You know the church does not declare something unless called upon to do so.

Example from the early centuries would be is Christ God

Once the heresy emerges the church declares per Matt 18

The fact that Marion doctrines were not declared until do late is actually proof of their authenticity. Just because it was not declared dogma does not mean the church did not teach it.

There are countless writings in Mary in the church from the earliest of times, even Luther and Calvin took a stronger position than today’s Protestants regarding her.

Only after the Protestant heresies worked tirelessly for a couple hundred years to deny Mary did the church have to step in and declare what is truth.

 

[pocohombre]

Well what happens when entire churches and denominations believe this is what the Bible means and what Christians should practice?

You know what happens and it is been happening since day 1 in the garden.You can’t change this setup, the way things are, the way truth is discerned. It would be nice if we could all agree, but not if it is thru artificial, even fleshly means.

What gives you the right to claim to know better than them?

Is that like me asking you what gives you the right to say you are better at discerning the true church ?

What authority do you or your church or your denomination have to correct them?

It’s like we know how the dialogue goes. I am reminded that God’s established religious authority constantly asked Jesus the same thing, “by what authority do you go against our authority”. Does truth need an authority in order to be realized ?

Perhaps they tell you that you have the self righteous view and lack compassion for women in tough positions.

If they do that is how it goes. I wouldn’t have it any other way short of them repenting.

 

[Jon_S_1]

You know what happens and it is been happening since day 1 in the garden.You can’t change this setup, the way things are, the way truth is discerned. It would be nice if we could all agree, but not if it is thru artificial, even fleshly means.
Is that like me asking you what gives you the right to say you are better at discerning the true church ?
It’s like we know how the dialogue goes. I am reminded that God’s established religious authority constantly asked Jesus the same thing, “by what authority do you go against our authority”. Does truth need an authority in order to be realized ?
If they do that is how it goes. I wouldn’t have it any other way short of them repenting.

So your resigned to a point of relativism

Or

You hold the corner on truth because you say so.

When Moses came off the mountain and do the nation of Israel worshiping the golden calf he did not say “oh well” and let them go whichever way they wanted.

No he was given authority by God to lead and he did.

This happens over and over again through the Old Testament.

Finally Christ comes and founds a church and gives Gods authority to the church do that the church he works through and protects can be the beacon of truth.

So that church could compile the scriptures.

So that church could settle disputes with authority.

So that church when called upon could say like Moses on the mountain. “Thus Sayeth God”