Subdeacons and the minor orders

[Godric2]

I read somewhere that subdeacons do exist still in the Catholic church - in those communities which are solely extraordinary form.

Is this right? I can’t see how it can be unless the seminaries are different too.

Cross Dressing saints?

 

[phil19034]

I read somewhere that subdeacons do exist still in the Catholic church - in those communities which are solely extraordinary form.

Is this right? I can’t see how it can be unless the seminaries are different too.

Cross Dressing saints?

Yes, they still exist and they still exist in the Eastern Catholic Churches. I’m not sure thought how they get installed, but might be through select seminaries only?

 

[L_Marshall]

I read somewhere that subdeacons do exist still in the Catholic church - in those communities which are solely extraordinary form.

Is this right? I can’t see how it can be unless the seminaries are different too./URL]

This is correct. Communities like the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter, and the Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest use the Extraordinary Form exclusively, and ordain their seminarians to the subdiaconate (as well as the four minor orders). Many of these groups have their own seminaries, where classes of men receive minor orders, or the subdiaconate together. I imagine If this were not the case, the man would go to another seminary, but receive the minor order or subdiaconate with the community, probably during a break from seminary.

 

[MorEphrem]

I read somewhere that subdeacons do exist still in the Catholic church - in those communities which are solely extraordinary form.

Well in terms of existing in the Catholic Church, they still exist in the East. I think all Eastern Churches have retained minor orders (although ours are different I believe- cantor, lector, subdeacon).

Cross Dressing saints?

Ah yes, Mort Marina, a saint that has a soft spot with me. I was very happy to visit her shrine in the Holy Valley in Lebanon (that is where many of the Maronite patriarchs are buried). There’s a lovely sooghito (dialogue hymn) between her and Satan - she wanting to remain in the monastery and Satan trying to get her to reveal she’s a woman so that her superior lifts her punishments since they were imposed on the accusation that she had impregnated an innkeeper’s daughter.

 

[Lawrence178]

The FSSP ordains men to the Subdiaconate and Minor Orders. You can find pictures of the ceremonies on their website.

 

[babochka]

Yes, they still exist and they still exist in the Eastern Catholic Churches. I’m not sure thought how they get installed, but might be through select seminaries only?

Subdeacons are not installed, they are ordained.

 

[giuseppeTO]

Pope Paul VI suppressed all of the minor orders below deacon. So the only place you will typically find them in the West is in seminaries that follow the extraordinary form and ordain their priests to use te Extraordinary Forms of the sacraments (ICK, FSSP, SSPX, GSI).

The orders start with the tonsure and include Porter, Lector, Acolyte, Exorcist, Subdeacon, Deacon, Priest. The minor orders (usually one year in duration) are typically given in pairs and the vow of celibacy is usually taken at Subdeacon. The Subdeaconate is usually of a very short duration. In the SSPX, the Subdeaconate is conferred in the week prior to Holy Week and the Deaconate is conferred three months later at priestly ordinations on the second or third Friday of June.

When minor orders are conferred, one becomes a cleric when one receives the tonsure. In the Pope Paul VI reforms, one becomes a cleric with the Deaconate.

Typically, in the Extraordinary Form, one is addressed as Rev. Mr.“Smith” with the ordination to subdeaconate, which is the title in the reformed rites one uses after ordination to the deaconate.

 

[Chatter163]

It has been correctly explained that the FSSP and ICRSS still ordain men to the subdiaconate, and they are titled “The Rev. Mr. ________,” as was done prior to 1972. (BTW, the subdiaconate, while admittedly not of divine origin, is extremely ancient, dating to at least the third century.) However, it is to be noted that since the FSSP and ICRSS must function under the current code of canon law, that canonically, one does not become a cleric until diaconal ordination. This has been clarified by the pontifical* Ecclesia Dei *commission. So, while ordination ceremony is held, and the title conferred, one is still canonically a layman until becoming a deacon, even though by all outward appearances, they have already become a member of the clergy.

 

[MorEphrem]

BTW, the subdiaconate, while admittedly not of divine origin, is extremely ancient, dating to at least the third century.

I suppose that is a matter of theologoumenon; I was taught that the 9 ranks of ordination are the earthly reflection of the 9 ranks of celestial beings that serve God.

 

[malphono]

It has been correctly explained that the FSSP and ICRSS still ordain men to the subdiaconate, and they are titled “The Rev. Mr. ________,” as was done prior to 1972. (BTW, the subdiaconate, while admittedly not of divine origin, is extremely ancient, dating to at least the third century.) However, it is to be noted that since the FSSP and ICRSS must function under the current code of canon law, that canonically, one does not become a cleric until diaconal ordination. This has been clarified by the pontifical* Ecclesia Dei *commission. So, while ordination ceremony is held, and the title conferred, one is still canonically a layman until becoming a deacon, even though by all outward appearances, they have already become a member of the clergy.

That is all very true, but I might note here that tonsure itself never really made much of a difference. By that I mean a tonsured cleric not in Major Orders (and sacramentally speaking, that includes sub-diaconate) who left formation was easily and routinely laicized. IOW, when one becomes a cleric is a matter of law, not Orders.

In the Oriental Churches it’s a bit different, since the minor ministries were never restricted to those in formation for Major Orders, but that really doesn’t pertain to this thread.

 

[giuseppeTO]

That is all very true, but I might note here that tonsure itself never really made much of a difference. By that I mean a tonsured cleric not in Major Orders (and sacramentally speaking, that includes sub-diaconate) who left formation was easily and routinely laicized. IOW, when one becomes a cleric is a matter of law, not Orders.

In the Oriental Churches it’s a bit different, since the minor ministries were never restricted to those in formation for Major Orders, but that really doesn’t pertain to this thread.

Is tonsure administered in the Oriental Churches and if so, at what point?

 

[janeway529]

I may have heard that seminarians can be commissioned as Lectors and Acolytes before their diaconal ordination.

 

[MorEphrem]

Is tonsure administered in the Oriental Churches and if so, at what point?

Well now since (at least the Maronite Church) conflates the subdeaconal ordination with lector and cantor, tonsuring occurs at this triple ordination.

 

[L_Marshall]

I may have heard that seminarians can be commissioned as Lectors and Acolytes before their diaconal ordination.

Seminarians are instituted to the ministries of lector and acolyte before diaconal ordination. This is still required by Canon Law. In Pope Paul VI’s aforementioned motu proprio Ministeria Quaedam [On First Tonsure, Minor Orders, and the Subdiaconate], His Holiness did away with the four minor orders, and the tonsure, and the subdiaconate, but replaced the minor orders with two ministries.

These are not the same as orders, because the individual is not a cleric upon receiving the first step (tonsure).

Some people would like to see a return of the minor orders and subdiaconate, since they do serve a purpose in liturgical ministry, and act as a ladder for men preparing for Holy Orders (with the re-instatement of the permanent diaconate, this would include men preparing to be permanent deacons).

In ancient dioceses, many men who were not even preparing to receive Holy Orders would receive the minor orders to help at the church, since no vow of celibacy was required until the subdiaconate. Some diocese still institute laymen who are not pursuing Holy Orders to the ministry of acolyte.

 

[malphono]

Well now since (at least the Maronite Church) conflates the subdeaconal ordination with lector and cantor, tonsuring occurs at this triple ordination.

They’re not always conflated and, properly speaking, tonsure goes along with Cantor, that being the first of the Minor Orders.

 

[TimothyH]

Subdeacons are not installed, they are ordained.

My understanding is that the ordination of a subdeacon is not the sacrament of Holy Orders. Can anyone confirm this?

-Tim-

 

[Alfonsus]

Pope Paul did 2 things in Ministeria Quaedam:

1. The clerical status is conferred upon ordination to deaconate.
2. The ministry of minor orders are now packed into two ministry, lector and acolyte. The acolyte have the fullness of minor order’s ministry, and if so chooses, can be called subdeacon.

Thus the ministry is never completely abolished in the Latin Church.
The function and ministry of subdeacon is now reside in the ministry of acolyte.

 

[Filii_Dei]

My understanding is that the ordination of a subdeacon is not the sacrament of Holy Orders. Can anyone confirm this?

-Tim-

The Second Vatican Council only mentions the Holy Orders of Deacon, Priest and Bishop, and the Church currently only discusses the sacrament of Holy Orders in relation to the Diaconate, Presbyterate and Episcopate. However, historically the Church has also considered the Subdiaconate as a Major Order. St Thomas Aquinas was of the specific view that the Subdiaconate was a sacramental order. The Catholic Encyclopedia, while certainly not the Magisterium and defining the Subdiaconate as a Major Order as was in line with the Church at that point in time, also documents the differing perspectives and discussion on the sacramentality of the order.