Subjective experience and the Trinity

[Kaben123]

Hello.

We all have a sense of self (personhood) and this is tied with our subjective experience of the world. I can, for example, feel the pain of fire, but when another person feels this, I do not experience it. These qualia are all subjective.

What is the teaching of the Church on this subjective experience in the Trinity? If all the persons of the Trinity share the same subjective experience, then how can they be called persons? And if they have different subjective experiences, how can this be the case in *one *being? They all share in the same properties of God, and should therefore have the same subjective experience, it seems.

Thanks.

 

[paduard]

Hello.

We all have a sense of self (personhood) and this is tied with our subjective experience of the world. I can, for example, feel the pain of fire, but when another person feels this, I do not experience it. These qualia are all subjective.

What is the teaching of the Church on this subjective experience in the Trinity? If all the persons of the Trinity share the same subjective experience, then how can they be called persons? And if they have different subjective experiences, how can this be the case in *one *being? They all share in the same properties of God, and should therefore have the same subjective experience, it seems.

Thanks.

The teaching of the Church is that the doctrine of The Trinity is a Mystery; which thus includes but does not explain the contradictions you set out.

 

[Kaben123]

The teaching of the Church is that the doctrine of The Trinity is a Mystery; which thus includes but does not explain the contradictions you set out.

But some smart fellow must have thought about it!

 

[Jim_Baur]

This may sound simple and profound.

St. Thomas teaches that the persons are real, and yet it is an analogy.

He talks about this in the first part of the Summa, questions 27 through 45.

As you know, one needs the concepts and the vocabulary of the particular subject or discipline.

Good luck with your quest.

 

[JDaniel]

Hello.

Kaben:

And right back at you. Welcome to CAF.

We all have a sense of self (personhood) and this is tied with our subjective experience of the world. I can, for example, feel the pain of fire, but when another person feels this, I do not experience it. These qualia are all subjective.

Yes (thank goodness!).

What is the teaching of the Church on this subjective experience in the Trinity? If all the persons of the Trinity share the same subjective experience, then how can they be called persons? And if they have different subjective experiences, how can this be the case in *one *being? They all share in the same properties of God, and should therefore have the same subjective experience, it seems.

It is important to understand that God is not a being that undergoes experiences. ‘Experiences’ presume ‘time’, which is not possible of an infinite being. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are viewed as three aspects of One Divine Being. If we are fortunate enough to be good enough to see God face-to-face, we will no doubt see something that we can’t begin to imagine during our human situation. It makes sense for God to send Jesus to earth to convene with man. Further, the Fall is all about the utter lack of filial love exposed by Adam and Eve, for their Father. Jesus is the Way, the showing of what God, our Father, wants us to understand to be filial love.

Further, it makes sense for God to utilize His Holy Spirit to intervene in man’s affairs at that level where we can understand Providence, but don’t require the physical presence of a being doling it out. This isn’t the movies. We are not bit players in DeMille’s The Ten Commandments, wherein the Angel of Death was depicted as a grayish cloud, passing from door to door.

I can’t say that these are the official teachings of the Church. But, they make sense. Also, the “filial love” answer is one of the official Church teachings.

God bless,
jd

Thanks.

 

[levinas12]

Hello.

We all have a sense of self (personhood) and this is tied with our subjective experience of the world. I can, for example, feel the pain of fire, but when another person feels this, I do not experience it. These qualia are all subjective.

What is the teaching of the Church on this subjective experience in the Trinity? If all the persons of the Trinity share the same subjective experience, then how can they be called persons? And if they have different subjective experiences, how can this be the case in *one *being? They all share in the same properties of God, and should therefore have the same subjective experience, it seems.

Thanks.

Great question!

What makes it a great question is that it is thought provoking. We have to think about the meaning of person. As you point out, human persons cannot share the very same subjective experience because their bodies are different - but this needs to be unpacked a bit more. Each of us is a unique “there”. In German, the word for “there” is “da”. That’s why Heidegger talks about “da-sein”, “being-there”. My “da” can never be your “da”. But again this is because my body cannot be your body.

The Persons in the Trinity are not distinguished from one another because they have different bodies. Jesus has a human body but his difference (as the Second Person) is not based on his human body. The Persons of the Trinity are distinguished from one another because they **are **different Relations to Each Other. Notice the “are” here. It’s not that the Trinitarian Persons have different relations; They are different Relations; Their Being is a Relation.

So do the different Relations produce different perspectives (similar to what we experience as human beings)? Well, without bodies, there cannot be different perspectives (at least in one sense of “perspective”).

So,if the Persons cannot have different perspectives, it would seem that They cannot have different subjective experiences. In fact, can They have any subjective experience? Are the Trinitarian Persons “subjects” at all? At least as we would understand a “subject”, i.e., as a center of experience. How can there be 3 centers in the Trinity?

If there were 3 centers, then would these centers just be one set of “centers” in addition to all the other “centers” (angels, humans)? No. God does not have boundaries (God is “infinite”).

Let’s continue this conversation in some more postings.

 

[Jim_Baur]

God is love.

We experience God and the Holy Trinity the more we grow in the virtue of love.

 

[Jim_Baur]

God is love. Those that love live in God and God in them.

 

[JDaniel]

God is love. Those that love live in God and God in them.

Jim:

I think God lives in everything and everyone. Some of us refuse to accept that, and some want no part of his love, unfortunately. But, if we bother God, with our loves for him, we will be like our own children to us. I remember how good it felt when my own kids came to me. Imagine that! They came to me!! Me! A nothing compared to our Creator! But, the feeling was incomparable. So, you are mostly correct.

God bless,
jd

 

[Jim_Baur]

JDaniel

Thanks!