Subjectivity of Mortal Sin

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JimG:
Well, let me clarify. I’m never in doubt as to what constitutes a mortal sin for me. When I go into the confessional, I’m not in doubt about what to confess. I don’t judge other people’s hearts. I can only know what is in my own.
That was a good clarification. If you have a mortal sin on your heart, then it will show up during regular confession. If it honestly slips your mind when you made reasonable effort to make a sufficient inventory, then I understand those sins are forgiven, too. Technically they should not be confessed again but a lot of people like to “just to be sure.” To me that sounds like they doubted they were forgiven the first time around is the reason it doesn’t leave their conscience, but hey if it bothers them, then go on back into that booth and let Jesus handle the yoke for a bit by letting the priest do his job and advise and/or absolve you.
I don’t recall, growing up, that my parents had a detailed list of rules. But I knew when I was doing wrong, and so did they.
Same here.

Really if there was any doubt in my parents’ mind whether I was doing wrong, they would ask me straight out what I was doing, and I would tell them. Then they would say that is wrong and optionally why it is wrong, and off we went without repeating that particular problem. If they told me why it was wrong, then I would start trying to apply similar logic in seemingly similar situations. Problem is that my abstractions didn’t always lead to the same conclusions as theirs, so even as we fixed one problem we planted potential seed for others in the future. Sigh. That’s probably about like me and the Church. Once I think I understand it I find out I’m really just getting farther off and Jesus has to “slap me around” again. Reminds me of the gospel of John.

Alan
 
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JimG:
Well, that sounds pretty nuanced, but I wouldn’t advise using either one of those paragraphs in the confessional.
That sounds like wise advice to me! 👍 I will comply. :yup:

Alan
 
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michaelgazin:
When reading 1 John 5:16, he says “If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin…” so apparently there are sins that we can know are mortal, or at least that is the implication.
I’ll take at least a shot at this. I believe that to the Jews, “mortal sin” had a very specific meaning. Remember that “mortal” essentially means “deadly”, so we can see that John was talking about “deadly sins”. Well, the Hebrew Scriptures also talked about deadly sins, and so it could be supposed that John was referring to those. It wasn’t until much later that people like Pope St. Gregory the Great and St. John Cassian helped to formalize the list that we now have called the “7 deadly sins”. Those are:

Pride
Avarice (greed)
Envy
Anger
Lust
Gluttony
Sloth

All of these have roots in Sacred Scripture as grave sins, but there is no difinitive list there.

This is still, obviously, no slam dunk when it comes to discerning true mortal sin because each of these sins can be committed to a lesser or greater amount. But they are all dangerous because they are potentially deadly to our souls.

Remember, too, that Jesus said that someone commits adultery in their hearts (adultery commonly understood as a mortal sin) by even looking at another person lustfully, so we can certainly see why lust is included as a deadly sin. If we carry that logic through the rest of the list, we could all be running to the confessional (anger=murder, pride=making ourselves gods, etc.)! :bigyikes:

So, when John said “mortal sins”, he may have been referring to specific sins such as are found in this list that his audience would have understood.

Peace,
javelin
 
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puzzleannie:
the first requirement is that the act be objectively immoral, gravely so. All mortal sins are therefore objectively immoral. Whether or not the person is aware that the act is immoral, or the extent of the gravity of the matter does not affect its objective evil. Whether or not the person’s state of knowledge, or absence of consent, reduces or eliminates his personal guilt for the action, the evil effects still accrue.

For instance: a teen has never been taught that premarital sex and contraception are wrong, and indulges in those practices. He or she may not be subjectively guilty of a mortal sin, but nonetheless the evil effects of fornication and contraception will affect their life, and those involved in their actions. A woman who is raped has by no means given consent to the sex act, and is entirely guiltless of sin, yet no one can deny she will suffer evil effects of the gravely sinful action.
This is a great answer, and completely in line with what the church teaches.

All mortal sins are objectively immoral. But the culpability that we incur for committing a mortal sin is subjectively judged by God. For example, if one is invincibly ignorant of the duty to attend Mass on Sunday, God will not hold that person culpable for missing Mass (e.g. a Buddhist that has never heard the Gospel will not be condemned by God for missing Mass on Sunday!)

But what about a Catholic that knows his faith and chooses to blow off Mass on Sunday to go to the beach? That person gave the consent of their will to choose going to the beach instead of going to Mass. And that Catholic knows that the church teaches doing such a thing is a mortal sin. If that Catholic is unrepentant for blowing off Mass, can he stand before God and claim that he never gave the consent of his will? Can that Catholic claim that he was ignorant of the Church teaching?INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE

Lack of knowledge, either of fact of law, for which a person is not morally responsible. This may be due to the difficulty of the object of the knowledge, or scarcity of evidence, or insufficient time and talent in the person, or any other factor for which he is not culpable.

(Etym. Latin in, not + vincibilis, easily overcome: invincibilis.)

VINCIBLE IGNORANCE

Lack of culpable knowledge for which a person is morally responsible. It is culpable ignorance because it could be cleared up if the person used sufficient diligence.

One is said to be simply (but culpably) ignorant if one fails to make enough effort to learn what should be known; guilt then depends on one’s lack of effort to clear up the ignorance.

That person is crassly ignorant when the lack of knowledge is not directly willed but due to neglect or laziness; as a result the guilt is somewhat lessened, but in grave matters a person would still be gravely responsible.

A person has affected ignorance when one deliberately fosters it in order to not be inhibited in what one wants to do; such ignorance is gravely wrong when it concerns serious matters.

(Eytm. Latin vincibilis, easily overcome; ignorantia, want of knowledge or information.)

Pocket Catholic Dictionary, John A. Hardon, S.J

**Catechism of the Catholic Church

ERRONEOUS JUDGMENT

1792 ** Ignorance of Christ and his Gospel, bad example given by others, enslavement to one’s passions, assertion of a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience, rejection of the Church’s authority and her teaching, lack of conversion and of charity: these can be at the source of errors of judgment in moral conduct.

1793 If - on the contrary - the ignorance is invincible, or the moral subject is not responsible for his erroneous judgment, the evil committed by the person cannot be imputed to him. It remains no less an evil, a privation, a disorder. One must therefore work to correct the errors of moral conscience.

Saying that mortal sin requires “full” knowledge and consent is a handy memory cue that may be useful in catechesis, but it is not a precise formulation of the kind one would get in a moral theology manual.

The kind of consent needed, more technically, is the degree of consent needed to make a fully human act. This does not mean saying, “Yes! I want to do something really evil!” and having nor reticence about it. One can have misgivings, regrets, mixed feelings, et cetera, and still give deliberate consent to an action.

Similarly, one does not have to know with metaphysical certitude that a given act is gravely sinful. Lesser degrees of knowledge count – again, the degree of knowledge needed for an authentically human act is the key. Indeed, someone might even be feigning ignorance or being hardhearted toward the evidence …

“This Rock Magazine”, p. 47, July-August 2002
 
We use the word “sin” a lot.

I wonder what exactly we mean by “sin” because I think some of our conversations may rely on slightly different definitions.

For example, is there a difference between “sin” and “a sin”?

Exactly what is the “sin” composed of. My engineering and enquiring mind wants to know. If it is physical or tangible in some worldly way, is it a particular physical deed that is outside of acceptable limits, the intent to commit such a deed, the reason one intends to commit a deed, the way one feels in one’s heart about a situation, or what?

If it is conceptual, then is “sin” a category of all behavior that shows an act of will against the Lords? Is an instance, or occasion, of sin, then definied by one or more of those tangible actions above, or perhaps are those actions simply physical manifestations of a sin, which itself causes one to attempt, wish, or carry out such activities.

By now I think I’m babbling. I know what I’m trying to ask, so maybe someone else knows too.

Alan
 
“Sin” without the article may sometimes refer to a generic human condition. As in, we are all affected by the results of original sin, which caused a defect in our nature.

But “a sin” means some particular action or omission by a particular individual that is contrary to God’s will.
 
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JimG:
But “a sin” means some particular action or omission by a particular individual that is contrary to God’s will.
OK, we can start there, and I assume you mean this action or omission can manifest physically or mentally, or both.

In the case of the physical sin, is its status as a mortal sin or not based on objective characteristics of the act itself, or the thought behind it? Both?

In the case of the mental sin, where does temptation end and mental sin begin? We have guidelines about the mentality necessary for sin to be mortal, which some of us agree can hold an objective truth value although humans cannot discover that objective truth.

I’m not trying to make any particular points here now, just kicking these words around a bit to see if it helps lead anywhere.

Alan
 
I’d like to chime in with an example that has troubled me.

Missing Mass is often the example of choice when one discusses this. Missing Mass doesn’t quite seem to maintain the same gravity as mass murder or rape but, yet, is a mortal sin. This troubles many, myself included.

I have, for better or worse, contimplated this rather deeply since my coming back to the faith 2-3 years ago. Initially, upon discovering that missing Mass is a mortal sin, I was troubled. How can this be?, I’d ask. If it is in fact a mortal sin, then greater than 99% of Catholics I know are not in a state of sanctified grace and have a one way ticket to hell.

Upon deeper (and longer) contimplation I now view it a bit differently. To begin with, speaking for myself, I have come to a point in my life where I not only do not miss Mass because I do not want to commit a mortal sin; I do not miss Mass because I do not desire to miss Mass. I hunger to go to Mass and to maintain communion with God. For me to miss Mass at this point in my life (for no good reason) I’d feel I am turning my back on Him. Therefore, I am. Which is what losing sanctifying grace is. I conclude therefore, that for me, missing Mass (again, for no good reason) is a mortal sin.

However, if we consider a friend of mine (ficticious) who believes himself to be a “good” catholic, I think we have to look at this differently. I’d maintain he is not in a state of mortal sin if he misses Mass. I further believe that even if I were to tell him that missing Mass was a mortal sin and he still did not go to Sunday services, he’d still (possibly) not be in a state of mortal sin.

My reasoning for this is:

He is not theologically knowledgeable enough to understand the significance of church authority. As is true of most Catholics. Therefore he believes he has the right to make certain decisions on his own. As is true of most Catholics. Further, if he was aware of the doctrine of the authority of the church, he’d likely still rebel to a certain degree because he has not educated himself to fully understanding the reason, history and ultimatley beauty and truth of this doctrine. This takes time, energy and work for most of us to come to a deeper understanding.

Therefore my friend is turning his back on God and offending God. Yet, he is not knowledgable of this offense. If he has some knowledge of this offense, he is unaware of the gravity of the offense. Therefore, I do not believe my friend is in a state of mortal sin.
 
I think I agree with Mijoy2’s analysis as it relates to missing Sunday Mass. Missing Mass is an objectively grave matter, but the spiritual formation of many simply has not given them sufficient knowledge to really appreciate this; thus the gravity of the sin is mitigated.

I come from an earlier generation of Catholics in which missing Mass on Sunday was at least as unthinkable–if not more so–than fornication. (Nowadays neither is unthinkable.)

This was so ingrained that it was axiomatic to go to Mass every Sunday no matter what the circumstances. Even when I was away from home and in the USAF I continued to hit the chapel every Sunday. Once, for the first time in my life, I actually slept in and missed Mass. The next day, a fellow barracks-mate called me on it! Not only did he notice that I missed Mass, he made sure I went to confession.

So I can’t take great credit for fidelity, because the culture–even the military culture–pushed us to follow the rules–even the Catholic Church rules!

The culture today is different, and pushes us in the opposite direction. So it’s harder. It’s why the Church has to be counter-cultural especially now. It’s more important to explain the rules than ever.

Sorry for the digression.
 
PS–I’d also like to point out that not all mortal sins are of equal gravity. Some are worse than others–even though any one can send you to hell.

Fornication is mortal, but one could say that adultery is worse, because it affects more lives. Perjury under oath is usually mortal, but multiple murder is worse.

Seducing an adult is mortal. Seducing a child is worse.
 
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michaelgazin:
If the requirements for a sin to be mortal are entirely subjective (i.e. full knowledge, consent), are there any mortal sins that are objectively mortal irregardless of the sinner’s disposition and knowledge?
It’s not a question of whether or not a sin is subjective or objective, but what level of intent to sin exists in the person committing the sin.

A mortal sin is always objectively sinful. The issue is when is one culpable for the sin. - when the commit the sin with full knowledge that it is sin and with full consent and intention.

One cannot *unknowingly * commit mortal sin. (Hence the phrase ignorance is bliss?) But, then again, one cannot intentionally remain ignorant of what is sin either.
 
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