Sublime Morality of Torture and Murder

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Sublime Morality of Torture and Murder

Many Muslims are quick to jump up and down about Abu Ghraib. It has become a catch-cry for the evil of the West. Abu Ghraib, Abu Ghraib, they chant whenever they’re in need for a tu quoque.

Let us examine how torture and murder are regarded in Islam from the sublime morality of the prophet Muhammad.

Once upon a time there was a Jewish tribe minding its own business in the city of Yathrib. One day a man came to them from the nearby city of Mecca and said he was the prophet of Allah, whom he claimed was the same as their god Yahweh. He asked them to accept him as their final prophet. Naturally the Jews were skeptical. This man is no Messiah, they said. So they questioned him and found his answers unconvincing. He got many things about Judaism wrong and as such they felt he couldn’t be the Messiah. So the Jews kindly and courteously declined his generous offer to subject themselves to his rule.

This riled the man from Mecca. He cursed them. He shouted abuse at them. He vowed to exile them from the land. The Jews shrugged their shoulders and said, ‘whadda crazy shmuck is he?’

Well, the false Messiah had enemies – his own kith and kin from Mecca. They wanted to kill him because not only did he insult their religion but he raided their caravans and killed their people. They wanted to bring the false Messiah to justice. So they told the Jews. Let’s call them Nadirs. They tried to force the Nadirs to fight this caravan raider, this false Messiah. But the Nadirs, being peaceful Jews, resisted. They had no part in this quarrel.

But the false Messiah heard that his enemies were trying to force the poor peaceful Nadirs into an alliance against him, which they had resisted. He threatened the Nadirs and they agreed not to enter into an alliance against him, even though he was a crazy schumacher.

The enemies of the shmuck, I mean false Messiah, heard about this and threatened the Nadirs again. But the poor Jews, caught in the sandwich, didn’t know what to do. So they did nothing.

Tthe schumacher, I mean false Messiah, heard about his enemies trying to force the poor Nadirs into an alliance against him. So the false Messiah gathered his army and went to the Nadirs. Make a peace treaty with me, he said, or else…

The Nadirs were much frightened. Well, we’re a peaceful lot, they told him. Why don’t we send 30 rabbis to meet with you? If you can convince them you’re the true Messiah we will gladly follow you. We would convert to Islam if you can convince our 30 rabbis.

Now, the schumacher, I mean false Messiah, knew his game was up. He could huff and he could puff, but no way could he pull the wool over the eyes of the 30 learned rabbis who could spot an imposter from a hundred paces. So he fought the Nadirs that day. He didn’t meet those 30 rabbis. He just unleashed his army against them.

Now, the Nadirs were not totally defenseless. They resisted. The false Messiah had to withdraw, and instead, vented his anger at their neighbors, the Qurayza. He turned up the next day with his army at the door of the Qurayza who were even more pacifist than the Nadirs and demanded a peace treaty or else…

What do poor defenseless Jews do in such circumstances? They signed the treaty. It is better to live under the yoke of a schumacher, I mean false Messiah, they reasoned than to be chopped up to feed the worms.

The schumacher, I mean the false Messiah, now newly emboldened returned to the Nadirs and fought them again. This time, he won. And as a result he exiled the poor Nadirs from their homes to a place called Khaibar.

Here endeth part one of the story. Abu Dawud 2998 Book 19, Number 2998 and 3004.

Part two of the story is a small one: the chief of the Nadirs was naturally a bit miffed. His name was Ka’b bin al-Ashraf and he fancied himself a bit of a poet. He rode to Mecca to complain about the treatment of his people to the false Messiah’s enemies. He also wrote some highly questionable poetry satirizing the false Messiah. Now, as everyone knows who’s followed the Danish cartoon incident, it is highly objectionable to satirize the false Messiah. This is justification for murder. So the false Messiah’s followers killed him. Here endeth part two.

Moral of this story: it is dangerous to satirize the prophet of the religion of peace. May get you killed if you do. Such is the religion of peace. Believe it or else.

cont
 
Part three begins when the schumacher, I mean false Messiah, continued to hated the Nadirs for resisting his irresistible charm. How can anyone refuse to accept his prophethood? He never forgave them.

A short time later, two tribes got into blows. They had nothing to do with the Nadirs and the false Messiah. But they were each friends to either side. This is like someone attacking you because your friend slapped someone else. Truly miraculous logic. It makes sense when you make up the rules to suit yourself.

The false Messiah’s friend got killed, so the false Messiah asked the Nadir, who had nothing whatsoever to do with the quarrel, to pay blood-money, thinking they wouldn’t do so as they had nothing to do with the whole incident. But lo and behold, those wretched hypocrite conniving deceitful Jews paid up. They wanted to avoid bloodshed so they succumbed to the blackmail, I mean the Justice system of the Arabs for a crime they had absolutely nothing to do with.

So, the schumacher, I mean the false Messiah, slunked away with two companions after meeting with and receiving the blood money from the Nadirs. Drats. He was outwitted. He never expected the Jews to pay up for something they didn’t do. Suddenly the false Messiah had a revelation. He claimed the Jews planned to drop a stone on him from a rooftop. How did he know this? An angel told him. Never mind his two companions didn’t see a thing. Thus, war was declared. Those crooked Joos, you see, planned to drop a stone. A stone, mind you, on the false Messiah’s head. Didn’t happen. Never mind.

So the false Messiah unleashed his army on the Nadirs and killed most of them. They did capture one by the name of Kinana al-Rabi. He was the son of a chieftain and knew where the Nadir kept their treasure, or so it was claimed. The false Messiah ordered that Kinana be tortured. And they tortured him something chronic. But there was no treasure. The Nadirs were poor farmers.

Funny thing was, just before he died, Kinana went and slipped on a banana skin (which was an incredible occurrence since bananas were unknown to the Arabs at the time) and beheaded himself on a scimitar carelessly lying about. Now, wasn’t that inconsiderate of him?

So, what did the poor schumacher, I mean false Messiah, do? He took prisoner Kinana’s 17 year old wife, Safiya bint Huyai, the daughter of the chieftain. Of course it was a love story. The false Messiah was such an attractive 60 year old that the 17 year old Safiya immediately fell in love and agreed to marry her. He had sexual relations with her the night after he caused the deaths of her father, her husband, all the male relatives, and the enslavement of her female and minor relatives. In short, the destruction of her entire people. Such is the power of Islam and the irresistible charms of the false Messiah that even a woman who’s lost everything to bandits would love and agreed to marry the bandit chief responsible for the misery of her people. It is truly miraculous and a great example of the ‘sublime morality’ of the schumacher.

Some might claim this constitutes rape. After all, what woman in her right mind would instantly fall in love with and marry the man responsible for the deaths and enslavement of her family and friends. But, it is mere cultural imperialism to suggest such a thing. Of course it was love at first sight. After all, no charge of rape was ever made and Safiya seemed content to submit to the schumacher’s unquestionable charms.

So, next time a Muslim utters the words, ‘Abu Ghraib,’ one should remind them of Kinana al-Rabi, and the sublime morality of torture and murder.

Chau,
Rodrigo
 
Rodrigo Bivar:
Sublime Morality of Torture and Murder

Many Muslims are quick to jump up and down about Abu Ghraib. It has become a catch-cry for the evil of the West. Abu Ghraib, Abu Ghraib, they chant whenever they’re in need for a tu quoque.

Let us examine how torture and murder are regarded in Islam from the sublime morality of the prophet Muhammad.
Mr. Rodrigo,

Obviously either you are deceived with anti-Islam propaganda who shows you specific out-of context parts of Islamic whole system to give the meaning whatever enemies of Islam wants to give or you are deliberately/knowingly on a compagin of defaming Islam, which is actually the Way of Life of Peace and tranquility.

If you are at the impression that your internet propaganda will cause any damage to Islam, then I am afraid that you are just wasting your time in copy-pasting-their ideas.

In fact your misqoutings will increase the curiosity of sincere/truth-seeking non-Muslims and when they carry out an honest research, unlike yours, about the whole system of Islam, either they may embrace Islam or atleast will have a kind attitude towards Islam because Islam is not what you and your peers are showing you. And once you loose the integrity because of misqoutings, no sincere person will pay attention to you/your propaganda.

As to your objections, they have already been answered on many Muslim sites. Just googled some Muslim sites the way you gooled anti-Islam sites, and you find the answers.

Having said this, instead of drawing your attention to incidents like Abu Ghrab or some 50 million killings by Hitler and his party, how about reading Isaiah 7 or Ezekiel 4 and see what Judeo-Christian Holy God of Love will do with his own choosen people–the Jews, let alone others.

Isaiah 7:20
The New American Bible

20 9 ** On that day the LORD shall shave with the razor hired from across the River (with the king of Assyria) the head, and the hair between the legs. It shall also shave off the beard. **

Footnote 9: [20] God will use the Assyrians from across the River (the Euphrates) as his instrument (razor) to inflict disgrace and suffering upon his people.

[usccb.org/nab/bible/isaiah/isaiah7.htm]](http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/isaiah/isaiah7.htm])
[usccb.org/nab/bible/isaiah/isaiah7.htm#foot9]](http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/isaiah/isaiah7.htm#foot9])

If this is what Judeo-Christian God will do with his people, then you can imagine what he is going to do with other people who are not his people. Do you think Judeo-Christian scriptures are for fun and the way Catholic church interpreted Isaiah 7:20 under the inspiration of her version of Holy Ghost, is a joke, in Catholics’ eyes?

This verse–Isaiah 7:20–is more serious than the issue you raised with a provocative title “Sublime Morality of Torture and Murder”, because God of Judeo-Christian scriptures who is supposed to be God of Love or LOVE itself, is **not going to forgive his OWN people ** and he, according to The Message Bible "will take the razor rented from across the Euphrates–the king of Assyria no less!-and shave the hair off your heads and genitals, leaving you shamed, exposed, and denuded. He’ll shave off your beards while he’s at it."

And the story doesn’t end here, it goes beyond:​

cont…
 
Mr. Rodrigo,

And the story doesn’t end here, it goes beyond:

Ezekiel 4:7-17
The New American Bible

7 **Fixing your gaze on the siege of Jerusalem, with bared arm you shall prophesy against it. **
8 See, I will bind you with cords so that you cannot turn from one side to the other until you have completed the days of your siege.
9 **Again, take wheat and barley, and beans and lentils, and millet and spelt; put them in a single vessel and make bread out of them. Eat it for as many days as you lie upon your side, three hundred and ninety. **
10 **The food you eat shall be twenty shekels a day by weight; each day the same. **
11 **And the water you drink shall be the sixth of a hin by measure; each day the same. **
16 **Then he said to me: Son of man, I am breaking the staff of bread in Jerusalem. They shall eat bread which they have weighed out anxiously, and they shall drink water which they have measured out fearfully, **
17 so that, owing to the scarcity of bread and water, everyone shall be filled with terror and waste away because of his sins.
12 **For your food you must bake barley loaves over human excrement in their sight, said the LORD. **
13 **Thus the Israelites shall eat their food unclean among the nations where I scatter them. **
14 **“Oh no, Lord GOD!” I protested. “Never have I been made unclean, and from my youth till now, never have I eaten carrion flesh or that torn by wild beasts; never has any unclean meat entered my mouth.” **
15 Very well, he replied, I allow you cow’s dung in place of human excrement; bake your bread on that.
[usccb.org/nab/bible/ezekiel/ezekiel4.htm]](http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/ezekiel/ezekiel4.htm])

Wow!..what a concession/discount from God in Judeo-Christian scripture for his own people!! Do you think forcing to eat human dung or even cow’s dung befits the holiness of Judeo-Christian concept of Loving-God and his loving nature? Is it not better if he just kill his own people instead of forcing them to eat cow’s/neat’s dung? Do you now see any footprints of this mentality in Abu Ghrab incidents?

PS: Did you notice the sequence of the verses (i.e verses 11, 16,17, 12, 13, 14, 15) in the New American Bible? They are not in serial order. Why?​

.
 
Justice this one is just too good. In many many poor parts of the world even today people use dung from animals and, yes, even humans, as fuel for fires - it’s hardly unheard of. Of course they’re not EATING it, but they ARE cooking over fires made from it.

Like I said, even today it still happens - nothing unique to our God or our religion. If you were there along side them you’d be doing it too rather than freeze to death or starve to death, I’m sure. If you didn’t you’d be an idiot.

Didn’t you notice the bit where it said BARLEY loaves? Why would they eat anything else when they have barley to make bread from? Presumably this went against Jewish dietary law though, so God was saying that in this instance out of necessity it was OK to break his dietary law.
 
Don’t be silly Justice2006,
We all know you’ve only got one string to your bow and that is to slag off at the Bible.

Can you defend your profit’s sublime morality of torture and murder? Or are you just jumping up and down shouting Abu Ghraib?

Now vemos despues,
Rodrigo
 
Rodrigo Bivar:
Don’t be silly Justice2006,
We all know you’ve only got one string to your bow and that is to slag off at the Bible.

Can you defend your profit’s sublime morality of torture and murder? Or are you just jumping up and down shouting Abu Ghraib?
Mr. Rodrigo,

I told you that I don’t like/entertain to “debate” with you since you are not a right person, IMO.

But the threads you are creating by using ready-made-false-propaganda-meterial from anti-Islam deceptive sites, forcing me to atleast site what in fact is right in the “inspired word of God–(the Holy Bibles)”. And this is for those who visit this thread.

I didn’t even explore what **in fact ** had happened in Abu ghrab jail of Iraq because what we learned through British media and recently from Australian media was just tip of the berg. Who knows what else happened besides what we learned form controlled media.

Anyways, here there are some more samples of totally different aspect of Love of Jude-Christian God, and his own actions towards his own people, let alone others.

Note: the following actions are taken direct by the B]Love of Jude-Christian God. (According to Christians, in their minds, God was Jesus who was born before Abraham. Don’t blame Muslims, that is what Christian believe.).

1 Kings 14:-5-16
(The American Bible)

**The LORD had said to Ahijah: “Jeroboam’s wife is coming to consult you about her son, for he is sick. This is what you must tell her. When she comes, she will be in disguise.”

So Ahijah, hearing the sound of her footsteps as she entered the door, said, "Come in, wife of Jeroboam. Why are you in disguise? I have been commissioned to give you bitter news.

Go, tell Jeroboam, 'This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: I exalted you from among the people and made you ruler of my people Israel.

I deprived the house of David of the kingdom and gave it to you. Yet you have not been like my servant David, who kept my commandments and followed me with his whole heart, doing only what pleased me.

You have done worse than all who preceded you: you have gone and made for yourself strange gods and molten images to provoke me; but me you have cast behind your back.

Therefore, I am bringing evil upon the house of Jeroboam: I will cut off every male in Jeroboam’s line, whether slave or freeman in Israel, and will burn up the house of Jeroboam completely, as though dung were being burned.

When one of Jeroboam’s line dies in the city, dogs will devour him; when one of them dies in the field, he will be devoured by the birds of the sky. For the LORD has spoken!’

So leave; go home! As you step inside the city, the child will die, and all Israel will mourn him and bury him, for he alone of Jeroboam’s line will be laid in the grave, since in him alone of Jeroboam’s house has something pleasing to the LORD, the God of Israel, been found.

Today, at this very moment, the LORD will raise up for himself a king of Israel who will destroy the house of Jeroboam.

The LORD will strike Israel like a reed tossed about in the water and will pluck out Israel from this good land which he gave their fathers, scattering them beyond the River, because they made sacred poles for themselves and thus provoked the LORD.
He will give up Israel because of the sins Jeroboam has committed and caused Israel to commit."**

[usccb.org/nab/bible/1kings/1kings14.htm]](http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/1kings/1kings14.htm])

I think the above verses–1 Kings 14:-5-16–speak for volumes. I better not comment, unless Mr. Rodrigo love to interpret them if he too is under the inspiration of his/or Catholic version of Holy Ghost since he loves to speak on Catholics’ behalf.​

.
 
Hey Mr. tuquoque, you never seems to be able to defend muhammad’s sublime morality here. Tell the readers whats islamic point of view about the torture and murder kinana and then your profit taking his wife to be his at the same day he killed her entire tribe. 😛
 
Dear Justice2006,
Your song is getting pretty boring now, bud. Sorry to say it, but that’s the truth. No matter what the topic, you come up with the same old same old issue.

Don’t distract the readers with your tangential charges against the Bible. I’m sure the readers know your favorite tactic of distraction and subverting the topic of threads you don’t like.

This issue of the B. Nadir, Ka’b ibn al-Ashraf, Kinana al-Rabi and Safiya bint Huyai has nothing to do with the Bible.

If you have nothing to say about Muhammad’s sublime morality of torture and murder, please go elsewhere. Thanks. Much appreciated.

Ciubate,
Cid
 
J2006 is now singing on other thread. He soon will come here with new verses of OT. Gosh! When will I be able to see him defend his holy prophet. 😃 😃
 
Cyber Knight:
J2006 is now singing on other thread. He soon will come here with new verses of OT. Gosh! When will I be able to see him defend his holy prophet. 😃 😃
New verses of OT” ?

From where do you think I am qouting?

You may not be really aware of what the BIBLES say that made you to say “New verses of OT

Care to read THE BIBLES first, before accusing others?

Everytime I qoute the Bibles, I provide the links to the chapters/verses. Are you telling me that verses about the Loving Nature of God of Judeo-Christian Scriptures (i.e., 1 Kings 14:-5-16 ) are not from the The New American Bible?

Can you atleast read these verses before you/Rodrigo crticise Islam:
1 Kings 14:12-13

So leave; go home! As you step inside the city, the child will die, and all Israel will mourn him and bury him, for he alone of Jeroboam’s line will be laid in the grave, since in him alone of Jeroboam’s house has something pleasing to the LORD, the God of Israel, been found.

[usccb.org/nab/bible/1kings/1kings14.htm]](http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/1kings/1kings14.htm])

God bless you both and may He give you insight to see the Light of His Last Testament (the Koran)…Amen​

.
 
Mr. Rodrigo/Ms.Knight

If objections/concerns from sincere learned non-Muslims are not an embarrasment for Islam/Muslims, then in what sense deceptive anti-Islam websites like *FFI * or *answering-islam * are an embarrasment since you are actually borrowing their ready-made-false-deceptive-out-of-context hypothesisies, which are totally baseless and have been refuted/exposed by learned Muslims and they are already available on the Internet?

Here are some usefull links for you:

’Doctorer’ Ali Sina Exposed
faithfreedom.com/ali_sina_exposed.html

Islamic Awareness
islamic-awareness.org/
Bismikaallahuma.org
bismikaallahuma.org/
The True Religion
thetruereligion.org/missionary.htm
Investigating Islam
islamic.org.uk/
Muslim Answers
muslim-answers.org/
Sharif.org
sharif.org.uk/
Guided Ones
guidedones.com/
Understanding Islam
understanding-islam.org/
Examine the Truth
ExamineTheTruth.com
 
Justice2006 said:
New verses of OT” ?
From where do you think I am qouting?

Muslim, read my entire context. Are you using half brain to digest my words? oh my I’m sorry to hear that. 😃
God bless you both and may He give you insight to see the Light of His Last Testament (the Koran)…Amen.
Muhammad wrote the koran. Why should I believe that to be the last testament. BTW, I heard somewhere in Koran that some part had been eaten by the goat… is that right, J2006? 😃 look like you allah couldnt do his job better than my 3 year old niece to take care her toys. :eek:
 
Cyber Knight:
Muhammad wrote the koran. Why should I believe that to be the last testament.
Then why should a Hindu or a Buddhist or an Atheist believe in your countless versions of the BIBLES, whose most authors are still UNKNOWN even to the Church authorities/Bibles’ experts?

Why should a Hindu must forget his God’s incarnated Infinite forms which he sees in every other strange thing, and accept mere three distinct persons of One God which is still a mystery even to the holders of Trinity dogma ever since it’s birth? All efforts of explaning it are failed such as using mathematics or diagrams of various triangles and false analogies. etc.

Why should a Muslim who firmly believes in ONE and ONLY Eternal, Immortal and Invisible God, forget Him and start believing in a fabricated view of God who is though Eternal, Immortal and Invisible on the one hand but was born as a man, made her mother impure and even his supposed earthly father (Joseph), tempted by the Devil, lived like a man, ate food, used toilets for call of nature, then get punishmed on false charges as a man/God without even defending his case, then ascended to the Hell by becoming a “curse” for a supposed sin of humanity, rose as a man, ascended to the heaven and sitting on His “own” right hand? All this no-sense view is self-created by those who came after Jesus’ ascnetion. Why should anyone believe in a Dead God anyway, who is supposed to be ALIVE, ETERNAL, IMMORTAL?

Towards what kind of a Dead-God are you inviting people of reason to believe? Even a child with some basic sense will reject the idea of a Dead-God.

May God, who is not a Dead One, bless you.

.
 
Hola Justice2006,
I recall having a discussion with you on the corruption of the Bible or did you forget that? How many times do you want to sing the same tune?

Adios amigo,
Cid
 
Why do Christians make so much fuss about Jesus being crucified?
Good question, indeed.

Because if Jesus is not raised from the “dead” then, in their mind, their relgion [faith] and preaching is vain (meaningless/worthless). So he must die** first ** at any cost, even if he had to become “accursed of God” (imagine God becoming accursed of God when he himself was “God”! ) in order to be raised from the “dead”. As such his “death” can be used as a pretext to “nail the law to the cross” thus becoming “free” from the bondage/responsibilities of the law for which Jesus actually “came not to abolish but to restore/fulfill”.

As you can see, in order to make this cruci-FICTION, a cruci-FIXION and “lawful”, though Christians have to face lot of problems but they think by this they (the followers of Saul) can get rid of main essence of Jesus’ ministry by completely ignoring his clear instructions, such as:

If you love me, keep my commandments. —John 14:15–D.R. Bible

But if thou wilt enter into [eternal] life, keep the commandments. —Matthew 19:17 --D.R. Bible​

God bless you all.
 
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