Submitting to reality

[o_mlly]

Then this will make for depressing reading for you, Jim.

Yes, of course it does. The problem is that it seems not to depress you, Fred nor the other 71% who have abandoned religion for the, “If it feels good then it’s OK” crowd:

Frequency of participation in prayer, scripture study or religious education groups among adults living with a partner: Seldom/Never 71%.

Historically, it takes a “Babylonian Captivity” or recognition of the “Barbarians at the Gates” to move mankind back to God. This time our barbarians are inside the gates.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

Then this will make for depressing reading for you, Jim.

Yes, of course it does. The problem is that it seems not to depress you, Fred nor the other 71% who have abandoned religion…

That’s true. Although the aspects of society that I noted above that people support do not necessarily contradict their religious beliefs. Christianity itself is a broad church which allows for many moral interpretations of what God wills. I’d suspect that the majority of people who are not Catholics who’d be included in the figures I gave would argue much more coherently than I could that their religious beliefs are as strong as yours.

They might feel quite insulted in fact.

 

[Freddy]

Historically, it takes a “Babylonian Captivity” or recognition of the “Barbarians at the Gates” to move mankind back to God. This time our barbarians are inside the gates.

Are those who believe in God yet hold to different moral beliefs barbarians? Can Jews and Protestants be classed as such?

 

[o_mlly]

That’s true. Although the aspects of society that I noted above that people support do not necessarily contradict their religious beliefs.

You miss the point. Those people are de facto irreligious. So there is no contradiction in what they do and what they believe because they have abandoned their religious beliefs. They may call themselves whatever they like; but their preferred label is meaningless. Actions speak louder than knee-jerk survey responses, so to speak.

They might feel quite insulted in fact.

There’s that all important verb again. We don’t care how they feel, rather how they think. You’ve convinced them to let their passions rule their lives. Better to be a satiated pig than … wait, that’s not what the old pagan taught!

Are those who believe in God yet hold to different moral beliefs barbarians? Can Jews and Protestants be classed as such?

The Israelites who adored the golden calf did not become non-Israelites, did they? They became idolaters.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

That’s true. Although the aspects of society that I noted above that people support do not necessarily contradict their religious beliefs.

You miss the point. Those people are de facto irreligious.

But Jewish people for example have different views about abortion and contraception to use just two examples. I live in very heavily Jewish area. With some exceptions they are some of the most religious people I know.

Likewise some Muslims and their view on marriage, abortion and contraception. Again, some of the most religious people you can get.

You may not agree with their beliefs in regard to these matters, but it’s nonsensical to describe them as irreligious because of them.

 

[JMMJ]

There’s that all important verb again. We don’t care how they feel, rather how they think.

Terrible. Really awful.

 

[o_mlly]

But Jewish people … Likewise some Muslims … You may not agree with their beliefs in regard to these matters, but it’s nonsensical to describe them as irreligious because of them.

Are you trying to be clever posting another straw man or just not following the thread?

I did not single out Jews or Muslims as irreligious. Rather I cited the irreligious as those 71% who do not practice from the link you posted:

Frequency of participation in prayer, scripture study or religious education groups among adults living with a partner: Seldom/Never 71%. …

You miss the point. Those people are de facto irreligious.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

But Jewish people … Likewise some Muslims … You may not agree with their beliefs in regard to these matters, but it’s nonsensical to describe them as irreligious because of them.

Are you trying to be clever posting another straw man or just not following the thread?

I did not single out Jews or Muslims as irreligious. Rather I cited the irreligious as those 71% who do not practice from the link you posted:

Frequency of participation in prayer, scripture study or religious education groups among adults living with a partner: Seldom/Never 71%. …

You miss the point. Those people are de facto irreligious.

So we can agree that all those who hold to different views on such moral matters such as abortion, contraception and marriage such as Jews and Muslims and Protestants find no contradiction in their moral beliefs and their belief in God.

And we can agree that people with different moral beliefs who believe in God are not ‘the barbarians inside the gates’.

 

[o_mlly]

So we can agree that all those who hold to different views on such moral matters such as abortion, contraception and marriage such as Jews and Muslims and Protestants find no contradiction in their moral beliefs and their belief in God.

You would have to ask them.

In as much as none of the groups you’ve listed profess an authority that proclaims the truth on matters moral, they can do pretty much as they feel.

And we can agree that people with different moral beliefs who believe in God are not ‘the barbarians inside the gates’.

No, we do not. I know you would like to take the analogy recalling the event that preceded the fall of the Roman empire to petty name-calling but no dice. Most of today’s “barbarians” speak a language that has rules of grammar and syntax that mimic Latin. The “barbarism” today is to have bought into the lie of the secular atheists that the unexamined life, the life of the maximum physical pleasure and minimum physical pain, the feel-good life is the only life worth living.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

So we can agree that all those who hold to different views on such moral matters such as abortion, contraception and marriage such as Jews and Muslims and Protestants find no contradiction in their moral beliefs and their belief in God.

You would have to ask them.

And we can agree that people with different moral beliefs who believe in God are not ‘the barbarians inside the gates’.

No, we do not. I know you would like to take the analogy recalling the event that preceded the fall of the Roman empire to petty name-calling but no dice.

I don’t think that I need to ask either Jews or Muslims whether their moral beliefs, based on their religious beliefs, contradict their religious beliefs. I’m afraid that you’ll have to accept that despite the differences in thinking on moral matters, they are at least as religious as any given Christian.

And I might point out that that this quote: ‘This time our barbarians are inside the gates’, was yours. I am trying to confirm that you aren’t including, for example, Jews and Muslims because their views on abortion and contraception, for example, are not the same as yours.

 

[Davidbergel]

To be fair, statistics show that more liberals actually have less children and believe in abortion and such while conservatives are much more family oriented.

 

[o_mlly]

I don’t think that I need to ask either Jews or Muslims whether their moral beliefs, based on their religious beliefs, contradict their religious beliefs.

Your logic is flawed. Since the religious views of the groups you point out do not instruct their moral views then what’s the point of labeling them as Jews, Muslims or Protestants? Lump them into a group including atheists who, like you, have no rational argument to support directly aborting a newly conceived child for the sake of convenience; they just feel that such an act is moral.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

I don’t think that I need to ask either Jews or Muslims whether their moral beliefs, based on their religious beliefs, contradict their religious beliefs.

Your logic is flawed. Since the religious views of the groups you point out do not instruct their moral views then what’s the point of labeling them as Jews, Muslims or Protestants? Lump them into a group including atheists who, like you, have no rational argument to support directly aborting a newly conceived child for the sake of convenience; they just feel that such an act is moral.

That’s where the line of questioning was headed. Did you consider Jewish and Muslim views, for example, to be on par with mine. That is, as you see them, irrational and with no basis in reality. And the religious views do indeed guide their thinking on these matters. The Jewish faith for example considers ensoulment happens at birth.

So the Jews and the Muslims are included in the group you described as the barbarians inside the gate.

 

[Jeanne_S]

Don’t forget Satan and his minions,he is the prince of lies and confusion.Thus the election chaos and every other disorder pervading the Nation and the world as a whole.

 

[JimG]

Based on the links you gave in post #20, it would seem that the barbarians inside the gates are Christians–Catholic and Protestant. Of course I do presume that they imbibed their ideas from the secular culture.

 

[o_mlly]

That’s where the line of questioning was headed. Did you consider Jewish and Muslim views, for example, to be on par with mine.

No. As noted, your premise is irrelevant. Some Jews and Muslims are in agreement with the Catholic teaching, some are not. Some (hopefully) of your buds down at the local watering hole are in agreement with Catholic teaching, some are not. Some Albanians are in agreement with the Catholic teaching, some are not. The religious views, the imbibing dispositions, the ethnicity of those who do or do not agree with the Catholic teaching just does not matter.

What matters is the rational argument for or against the killing of a newly conceived human being. Catholics, and those who agree with the Catholic teaching, have an argument against the act, the others do not.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

That’s where the line of questioning was headed. Did you consider Jewish and Muslim views, for example, to be on par with mine.

Some Jews and Muslims are in agreement with the Catholic teaching, some are not.

Some (hopefully) of your buds down at the local watering hole are in agreement with Catholic teaching, some are not. Some Albanians are in agreement with the Catholic teaching, some are not. The religious views, the imbibing dispositions, the ethnicity of those who do or do not agree with the Catholic teaching just does not matter.

I think that you’ll find that some (if not a majority) of Catholics are not in agreement with Catholic teaching…

And I think you’ll find, for example, that the Jews don’t consider ensoulment to happen until birth. That would be a religious position. Which dictates their position on abortion.

Do you think that Muslims and Jews, some of the most religious people on the planet, follow their religion so completely but use secular arguments for all the moral problems I mentioned upstream? That would be a very peculiar argument.

 

[Freddy]

Based on the links you gave in post #20, it would seem that the barbarians inside the gates are Christians–Catholic and Protestant. Of course I do presume that they imbibed their ideas from the secular culture.

A point raised in the post above. Do you think that Jews and Muslims agree with abortion and contraception for example by ‘opting out’ of their religion and simply hold to those positions on secular arguments?

You do know that these positions haven’t simply emerged in recent times in response to some liberal left-wing culture. They would use religious arguments to support their positions just as you would.

Edit: And pleeease don’t subject me to a ‘my-dad-is-bigger-than-your-dad’ argument.

 

[o_mlly]

I think that you’ll find that some (if not a majority) of Catholics are not in agreement with Catholic teaching…

You make my point. The barbarians, aka wolves, are in the gates. Unfortunately, some of the sheep are drinking their poisonous Kool-Aid.

Do you think that Muslims and Jews …

? Why do you think it matters what some Jews and some Muslims believe? Or some of your buds down at the bar? Your argument is simply a fallacious appeal to the non-unanimous opinions of some other people.

 

[Freddy]

Why do you think it matters what some Jews and some Muslims believe? Or some of your buds down at the bar? Your argument is simply a fallacious appeal to the non-unanimous opinions of some other people.

Let’s stick with one religion to avoid confusion. The belief that ensoulment occurs at birth, a belief which dictates the position regarding abortion, is a Jewish religious belief. Not just a belief held by some Jews. It is a religious belief comparable to the Catholic belief that ensoulment happens at conception.

Now some Jews may disagree with what the Jewish faith teaches them and some Catholics might disagree with what their faith teaches them. And some Jews may be against abortion as could some Catholics be pro choice. But the religious teachings of both religions are clear. I’m not talking about what individuals of either faith may or may not believe.

So what we have is the Catholic church which is against abortion and the Jewish faith which is not. I thought that that would have been clear enough and a point not worth arguing.

Now I think that you might describe an atheist’s pro choice secular view on abortion as one that would include her in the barbarians (your term) at the gates, or inside the walls, or wherever you think they might be. So the question again is: Are you going to include all the Jews who follow the religious beliefs that they have that abortion is not a problem in with those atheists? Are they barbarians as well?