Subsidiarity and Labor Unions

[Neil_Anthony]

The principle of subsidiarity, part of Catholic social teaching, is an organizing principle that matters ought to be handled by the smallest, lowest or least centralized competent authority..

By this principle, the individual should be free to negotiate the terms of his employment with his employer, rather than having a larger organization (labor union) do this for him.

Yet, Church social teaching also is in favor of labor unions. Isn’t this a contradiction?

 

[JaMc]

I don’t think unions are in conflict with subsidarity, especially when many of the terms of employment are not set by the manager of whatever branch/plant/mine the individual employee applies at, but are usually set higher up at the corporate level. So, if an individual walks into the branch office, sets out a list of terms, the manager would either show him the door, or say “sorry, these are the terms Corporate requires.” However, a Union, at least one that works as it should, can go to Corporate, and negotiate a contract on behalf of all of the employees.

The alternative is government regulation, setting forth a complete and comprehensive workplace code, requiring all of what it usually agreed upon in a collective bargaining agreement, but putting it in place as a “one size fit’s all” policy across the board, with no room for negotiation at all between labour and management. Faced with that alternative, unions fit in well perfectly with the principle of subsidiarity.

So, basically, I don’t think unions are any more in conflict with subsidiarity than large corporations are in conflict with subsidiarity.

 

[manualman]

Be careful not to confuse definitions. When the church endorses the concept of labor unions, she is endorsing the concept of the weak banding together to offset the disproportionate power of the strong so that there is fair give and take. She is NOT necessarily endorsing labor unions as they exist in the USA in 2009 (with mandatory membership, corrupt officials and rampant politicalism).

One of the main problems of a highly industrialized economy is that the means of production are far too expensive for the average Joe to go out and buy to start a business. This tends to place a LOT of power in the hands of those who CAN buy the factory and machinery to begin with. There is a NEED to place some offsetting power in the hands of the workers. But THEY can get too powerful or corrupt too.

Subsidiarity trumps the union endorsement. That endorsement is conditional and circumstantial. Subsidiarity is an endorsement of inherent principle. If that helps.

 

[diggerdomer]

The principle of subsidiarity, part of Catholic social teaching, is an organizing principle that matters ought to be handled by the smallest, lowest or least centralized competent authority..

By this principle, the individual should be free to negotiate the terms of his employment with his employer, rather than having a larger organization (labor union) do this for him.

Yet, Church social teaching also is in favor of labor unions. Isn’t this a contradiction?

no

 

[Neil_Anthony]

I don’t think unions are in conflict with subsidarity, especially when many of the terms of employment are not set by the manager of whatever branch/plant/mine the individual employee applies at, but are usually set higher up at the corporate level. So, if an individual walks into the branch office, sets out a list of terms, the manager would either show him the door, or say “sorry, these are the terms Corporate requires.” However, a Union, at least one that works as it should, can go to Corporate, and negotiate a contract on behalf of all of the employees.

The alternative is government regulation, setting forth a complete and comprehensive workplace code, requiring all of what it usually agreed upon in a collective bargaining agreement, but putting it in place as a “one size fit’s all” policy across the board, with no room for negotiation at all between labour and management. Faced with that alternative, unions fit in well perfectly with the principle of subsidiarity.

So, basically, I don’t think unions are any more in conflict with subsidiarity than large corporations are in conflict with subsidiarity.

So would you say that unions are justified under subsidiarity, because the individual is actually incapable of negotiating a fair agreement for himself? And so then it must be pushed up to a higher, larger group to negotiate?

 

[manualman]

So would you say that unions are justified under subsidiarity, because the individual is actually incapable of negotiating a fair agreement for himself? And so then it must be pushed up to a higher, larger group to negotiate?

Almost. I would substitute the words “when and where” for your because in the above statement. It isn’t always and everywhere true, but it sure is sometimes.

 

[JaMc]

So would you say that unions are justified under subsidiarity, because the individual is actually incapable of negotiating a fair agreement for himself? And so then it must be pushed up to a higher, larger group to negotiate?

In some circumstances, yes. If you have a plant with 500+ employees, it would be impractical, if not impossible, from a business standpoint to negotiate specific terms with each and every employee, pay each employee a different wage, offer each employee different benefits, etc., based upon said employee’s bargaining skills. Like I said before, the individual worker walking into the mine or factory with a list of conditions would either be shown the door, or told “take it or leave it.” Generally, most employers have a set schedule of wages and benefits depending on seniority and type of job. So, you either have (a) voluntary policies to keep workers, which are fewer the higher the unemployment rate in a specific area; (b) nothing whatsoever beyond what is required under government workplace regulations; or (c) a negotiated collective bargaining agreement between the union and the company.

However, I would say there is also room for subsidarity within organized labour - i.e., a local Machinists Union is preferable to some sort of pan-industrial organization like the Industrial Workers of the World (“Wobblies”).

 

[thejoemeister]

Scripture says:

Bear not the yoke with unbelievers. For what participation hath justice with injustice? Or what fellowship hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? Or what part hath the faithful with the unbeliever? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God; as God saith: I will dwell in them, and walk among them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore, Go out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing: And I will receive you; and I will be a Father to you; and you shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. 2Cor 6:14-18, Douay-Rheims

Do we not read our bibles anymore?

So it’s Ok to bind ourselves, with non-believers, atheists, etc? So they can strike and hurt our Christian employer?

When we contract with non-believers, we will pay a penalty. Unions are not “Catholic” in tradition nor in Scripture.

Remember:
How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it! Beware of false prophets, who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Matt7:14-15, Douay-Rheims

JOE

 

[JaMc]

. . . .

So it’s Ok to bind ourselves, with non-believers, atheists, etc? So they can strike and hurt our Christian employer?

When we contract with non-believers, we will pay a penalty. Unions are not “Catholic” in tradition nor in Scripture.

. . . .

JOE

To interpret scripture in this manner would bar Catholics from joining any secular organization, from the Rotary Club to the Chamber of Commerce. I believe there are some small fundamentalist Protestant groups that believe as such, but I am unaware of a Catholic prohibition on joining most secular groups. For that matter, I believe there was a strong Christian Labor Movement in Europe at one point, which was Catholic in focus.

Also, your statements assume that (1) the employer is Christian; and (2) the employer is a good Christian. To apply your statements the other way, is it O.K. for shareholders, corporate directors, and officers to bind themselves with non-believers, atheists, etc., so they can pay as little wages and benefits as possible and hurt their Christian employees?

Essentially, there is nothing inherently wrong with either unions or corporations seeking their respective self interest, so long as they deal fairly, openly, and honestly with one-another, and use moral means to seek moral ends.

 

[diggerdomer]

So it’s Ok to bind ourselves, with non-believers, atheists, etc?

Yes, of course, except in a few circumstances.

If a firefighter were saving your house from burning, would you ask them their religious affiliation before allowing them to do their job?

Do you have a job, and if so do you require your employer and supervisor(s) to agree with your religious views?

If their is some local political initiative that you think is beneficial to your community do you only support it if everyone else supporting it shares your identical religious beliefs?

 

[thejoemeister]

To interpret scripture in this manner would bar Catholics from joining any secular organization, from the Rotary Club to the Chamber of Commerce. I believe there are some small fundamentalist Protestant groups that believe as such, but I am unaware of a Catholic prohibition on joining most secular groups. For that matter, I believe there was a strong Christian Labor Movement in Europe at one point, which was Catholic in focus.

Also, your statements assume that (1) the employer is Christian; and (2) the employer is a good Christian. To apply your statements the other way, is it O.K. for shareholders, corporate directors, and officers to bind themselves with non-believers, atheists, etc., so they can pay as little wages and benefits as possible and hurt their Christian employees?

Essentially, there is nothing inherently wrong with either unions or corporations seeking their respective self interest, so long as they deal fairly, openly, and honestly with one-another, and use moral means to seek moral ends.

Sorry, but I don’t “interpret” Scripture. Just ask St. Peter You must have me confused with someone else, sir.

Thankfully, the Church does not need to “bar” me from joining organizations with non-believers for Scripture already has many times, for example: Our Psalmist says in his 25th Psalm"…I have not sat with the council of vanity: neither will I go in with the doers of unjust things. I have hated the assembly of the malignant; and with the wicked I will not sit." By the way,

To tie my behavior based on Scripture with “fundamentalist Protestant groups” is very troubling. Being married to a Psychologist, my wife would enjoy reading the attempt at mis-direction. So, is now quoting Scripture from my Catholic Bible considered “protesting”?

What non-believing shareholders, corporate directors, and officers do to contract amongst themselves is non of my business;and vice versa. My duty as a Christian is to make myself an example of Christian virtue and to be the light. Just ask St Paul and others. I would give you the Scriptural quote, but that makes me a “protestant” now, doesn’t it?

I have been both an employee and an employer. In both cases, I entered in an agreement to get paid a certain wage or pay a certain wage that was acceptable to each party. My prayer is that my agreement was acceptable to God, not to some un-Godly labor board. I try to do all things that are pleasing to God-no one else.

So, as a Catholic, I am to assume that because a union or other organization has “morals” that’s has to be acceptable to me? Well, whose morals? The morals of man (mammon)? Or perhaps the morals of humanism? How about the morals of Christ resurrected?

Guess which one I choose.

 

[rwoehmke]

So it’s Ok to bind ourselves, with non-believers, atheists, etc? So they can strike and hurt our Christian employer?
JOE

Who ever said that outfits like Ford Motor, G.M. or G.E. were Christian employers? By their very nature most corporations are neither Christian, agnostic, or atheist, but they are more powerful than most individuals.

Most people that I know would still be barefoot farm kids, shoveling cow manure, if their daddies or granddaddies had not belonged to a labor union. Thank God for labor unions and the G.I. bill.

 

[thejoemeister]

Yes, of course, except in a few circumstances.

If a firefighter were saving your house from burning, would you ask them their religious affiliation before allowing them to do their job?

Do you have a job, and if so do you require your employer and supervisor(s) to agree with your religious views?

If their is some local political initiative that you think is beneficial to your community do you only support it if everyone else supporting it shares your identical religious beliefs?

If God sees fit to have another human being safe my life or not save my life, that’s God’s will. God has used both believers and non-believers to His will. I would cite the many Scriptural examples, but I see that makes me a “protestant”.

I have been both an employee and an employer. When I have found myself confronted with doing what was correct in the eyes of God versus making my employer happy, I have chosen to make God happy. Once, it cost me my job. I found another one. The Lord will provide, no? Once, I left and resigned on my own. Again, the Lord provides, and I found work elsewhere.

I try to the best of my ability to do my work, according to the teachings of Christ and his Church. When I recognize my failure to do so, I confess my sins, repent from such behavior, and pray to be that Light for my customers and my fellow employees to see. Since joining with my current employer, the daily rash of dirty jokes and cursing has come nearly to a halt. Another employee has reopened his bible and is now studying Job. Even the local restaurant has changed their menu by making a fish entree their special on Fridays. All in the baptist bible belt!

I know that I am far from perfect, but I do my best to carry forth St Paul’s teaching that I strive for perfection. I realize that this world is inherently evil, and by choosing a reliance on God and His Church, and not man’s corporations and their morals, I might keep my gift of Salvation and find Glory in Heaven.

There are local political initiatives proposed all the time. Political initiatives have and “end” to them. To achieve this “end”, all political initiatives are by their nature being enforced by the brute force of government. Not by the Love of God. Our ancient king David was given a government and when he ran it according to God’s law, Israel prospered. When David to chose to disobey God, He and Israel suffered.

So to answer your question

If their is some local political initiative that you think is beneficial to your community do you only support it if everyone else supporting it shares your identical religious beliefs?

, i would say simply, these aren’t my beliefs. They’re God’s. Don’t like them? Take it up with him. I, by Grace, am the messenger.

Find me one local water main project that reads that its purpose is to please God, and I’ll be first in line to help.

P.S. Just thinking out loud… “why is it that God can create a Universe, planets, oceans, living creatures, etc, but we can’t trust Him to provide for our needs? Only a political initiative can”?

 

[thejoemeister]

Who ever said that outfits like Ford Motor, G.M. or G.E. were Christian employers? By their very nature most corporations are neither Christian, agnostic, or atheist, but they are more powerful than most individuals.

Most people that I know would still be barefoot farm kids, shoveling cow manure, if their daddies or granddaddies had not belonged to a labor union. Thank God for labor unions and the G.I. bill.

I am not sure how you translate “Christian employer” into Ford Motor, G.M. or G.E. I meant what I said. A Christian employer is a human being, not a corporation. If I mean a corporation, I will say so.

Since corporations are legal entities and not human, therefore not possessing souls, I do not concern myself with their Salvation. The are creations of the State. Their success of failure is a concern for the State.

 

[JaMc]

Sorry, but I don’t “interpret” Scripture. Just ask St. Peter You must have me confused with someone else, sir.

But, then you go on to say:

Thankfully, the Church does not need to “bar” me from joining organizations with non-believers for Scripture already has many times, for example: Our Psalmist says in his 25th Psalm"…I have not sat with the council of vanity: neither will I go in with the doers of unjust things. I have hated the assembly of the malignant; and with the wicked I will not sit." By the way,

To tie my behavior based on Scripture with “fundamentalist Protestant groups” is very troubling. Being married to a Psychologist, my wife would enjoy reading the attempt at mis-direction. So, is now quoting Scripture from my Catholic Bible considered “protesting”?

You are quoting scripture passages, then saying that, based upon what you believe them to mean, they bar Catholics from joining secular organizations, which looks an awful lot like “interpretation.” Can you point to something in Canon Law or the Catechism, even pre-Vatican II, to back up your claim that Catholics cannot join any secular organization? Something from St. Peter’s successor, whom you suggest we consult, would be helpful.

Moreover, those passages, while from the D-R, are also found in Protestant Bibles in substantially the same form, so it doesn’t matter that you are quoting from a Catholic Bible.

 

[JaMc]

I am not sure how you translate “Christian employer” into Ford Motor, G.M. or G.E. I meant what I said. A Christian employer is a human being, not a corporation. If I mean a corporation, I will say so.

Since corporations are legal entities and not human, therefore not possessing souls, I do not concern myself with their Salvation. The are creations of the State. Their success of failure is a concern for the State.

But, most employers large enough to have a unionized workforce are corporations. You basically said that labor unions are awful, heathen organizations out to destroy good, god-fearing, Christian employers. The UAW was not formed to “hurt” Henry Ford, William Durant, or Walter Chysler, and the USWA was not formed to “hurt” Andrew Carnegie. They were formed to present a stronger bargaining position against Ford Motor Co., G.M., Chrysler, Inc., and U.S. Steel. I know of very few “mom and pop” business with unionized employees, and, even of those, even few that have problems with strikes.

So, then, is it a double standard? Unions are O.K., as long as they are solely Catholic, and formed by employees of corporations?

 

[Brendan]

So, then, is it a double standard? Unions are O.K., as long as they are solely Catholic, and formed by employees of corporations?

No, workers may form and join unions. But one of the things that unions, via Subsidiary, should be prevented is removing an individual employee’s right to bargain individually.

In other words, no one should be COMPELLED to either join the union or be subject to the union contract.

 

[JaMc]

No, workers may form and join unions. But one of the things that unions, via Subsidiary, should be prevented is removing an individual employee’s right to bargain individually.

In other words, no one should be COMPELLED to either join the union or be subject to the union contract.

That’s a reasonable conclusion to reach. I was mainly replying to thejoemeister’s comments, which, in this thread, have been a little over the top.

 

[thejoemeister]

Am I to understand that your reasoning is, that if the Church does not specifically bar an act, that it is morally acceptable to do that act?

Are you for real?

Do you know how many “acts” or sins I can commit that are not specifically “barred” by the Church or the Catechism? I don’t believe I have a calculator that big.

Please tell me this is not your method for reasoning issues of the Church.

Oh, and why did I quote Scripture again? It was for you to understand that I rely on it, along with my Church, for Salvation.

Remember: “All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice, That the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work.” 2Tim3:16-17

Oh man, there I go again, quoting Scripture from my substantially same formed protestant bible.

 

[thejoemeister]

But, most employers large enough to have a unionized workforce are corporations. You basically said that labor unions are awful, heathen organizations out to destroy good, god-fearing, Christian employers. The UAW was not formed to “hurt” Henry Ford, William Durant, or Walter Chysler, and the USWA was not formed to “hurt” Andrew Carnegie. They were formed to present a stronger bargaining position against Ford Motor Co., G.M., Chrysler, Inc., and U.S. Steel. I know of very few “mom and pop” business with unionized employees, and, even of those, even few that have problems with strikes.

So, then, is it a double standard? Unions are O.K., as long as they are solely Catholic, and formed by employees of corporations?

Sorry, there are “Buts” to my point. I said exactly what I meant. If I meant other meanings, I would have said as such. By adding to my post that “that labor unions are awful, heathen organizations out to destroy good, god-fearing, Christian employers” is very disengenuous. Even wrong.

By attaching what you believe I was trying to say rather than reading the actual words I said, perhaps you were “interpreting”, no?

Unions, like all forms of corporations are of, and created, by man. They are legal fictions under man’s law.

My concern is for my soul and those souls around me. Whether a union is catholic or not, good or bad, is immaterial to a person’s soul.

Now here’s my opinion. If our Christian bretheren were as loyal to our Holy Church, like some of us are to our politcal parties, unions, fraternities, etc, our Church would be so much better off.

Here’s another quote from my protestant like bible:

“No man can serve two masters. For either he will hate the one, and love the other: or he will sustain the one, and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon” Matt 6:24

Enjoy and God Bless. I will continue to pray for both our understandings.