Subsidiarity and Labor Unions

[buffalo]

Subsidiarity does not support big business. Perhaps because it is big business that he big unions fight the bishops support them.

 

[JaMc]

Your posts indicate that you are arguing just for the sake of arguing on the Internet. Though, I don’t mind - it’s a slow Saturday, so I’m game.

Am I to understand that your reasoning is, that if the Church does not specifically bar an act, that it is morally acceptable to do that act?

Are you for real?

Do you know how many “acts” or sins I can commit that are not specifically “barred” by the Church or the Catechism? I don’t believe I have a calculator that big.

Very few, actually. Most of the major issues and sinful acts are mentioned in the Catechism or Canon Law, or, at least, logically follow from something therein.

Since the Church saw fit to condemn Freemasonry, and other similar groups, one would think that, given the prevalence of labor unions, there would have been a specific, magisterial document barring union membership, especially if any association with non-Catholics were barred.

Please tell me this is not your method for reasoning issues of the Church.

Oh, and why did I quote Scripture again? It was for you to understand that I rely on it, along with my Church, for Salvation.

Remember: “All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice, That the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work.” 2Tim3:16-17

Oh man, there I go again, quoting Scripture from my substantially same formed protestant bible.

Nothing wrong with scripture. However, privately interpreting scripture, outside the magisterium of the Church, is one of the hallmarks of Protestantism. There are 3 ways God is revealed: Scripture, Tradition, and the Magisterium. You point to the first, but ignore the second two. There is nothing in Sacred Tradition or the Magisterium which suggests that joining secular organizations with non-believers is immoral. As a matter of fact, the Popes and Bishops have indicated to the contrary, through their actions if nothing else.

Again, cite to the Catechism, Canon Law, or even an encyclical or apostolic letter, or any Church document which supports your position. In 2000+ years, I’m sure the subject has come up.

 

[JaMc]

Sorry, there are “Buts” to my point. I said exactly what I meant. If I meant other meanings, I would have said as such. By adding to my post that “that labor unions are awful, heathen organizations out to destroy good, god-fearing, Christian employers” is very disengenuous. Even wrong.

You said it was wrong for Catholics to associate with non-believers, so they can “strike and hurt Christian employers.” Another poster pointed out that most employers are corporations, which you conceded were not “Christian employers.” Therefore, is it O.K. for Catholics to organize against Corporate employers?

Unions, like all forms of corporations are of, and created, by man. They are legal fictions under man’s law.

My concern is for my soul and those souls around me. Whether a union is catholic or not, good or bad, is immaterial to a person’s soul.

Well, unions are composed of individuals. You seem to say that individuals joining unions are endangering their souls. Not that unions and their members have not done some very un-Christian things, even acts of terrorism, in the past, but there is nothing intrinsically immoral about them.

Now here’s my opinion. If our Christian bretheren were as loyal to our Holy Church, like some of us are to our politcal parties, unions, fraternities, etc, our Church would be so much better off.

No argument here.

Here’s another quote from my protestant like bible:

“No man can serve two masters. For either he will hate the one, and love the other: or he will sustain the one, and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon” Matt 6:24

But the Church has never held that to mean that we are to isolate ourselves from organization and civic involvement. We are not Jehovah’s Witnesses.

Enjoy and God Bless. I will continue to pray for both our understandings.

Same here.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Excellent answer. Remember also that union protect workers from unsafe working conditions and have brought about many of the work conditions we take for granted today (ie, weekends). The Church is a world-wide insitution and is not just looking at conditions in the US today.

I don’t think unions are in conflict with subsidarity, especially when many of the terms of employment are not set by the manager of whatever branch/plant/mine the individual employee applies at, but are usually set higher up at the corporate level. So, if an individual walks into the branch office, sets out a list of terms, the manager would either show him the door, or say “sorry, these are the terms Corporate requires.” However, a Union, at least one that works as it should, can go to Corporate, and negotiate a contract on behalf of all of the employees.

The alternative is government regulation, setting forth a complete and comprehensive workplace code, requiring all of what it usually agreed upon in a collective bargaining agreement, but putting it in place as a “one size fit’s all” policy across the board, with no room for negotiation at all between labour and management. Faced with that alternative, unions fit in well perfectly with the principle of subsidiarity.

So, basically, I don’t think unions are any more in conflict with subsidiarity than large corporations are in conflict with subsidiarity.

 

[thejoemeister]

You said it was wrong for Catholics to associate with non-believers, so they can “strike and hurt Christian employers.” …Therefore, is it O.K. for Catholics to organize against Corporate employers?.

This is a great question. Except for the premise. You make it seem that my position is based on what’s best for all Catholics. My earliest post describes how I see what I should do what’s best for ME not ALL CATHOLICS.

I based that on what I’ve read in Scripture, what I’ve read by our Church Fathers, and what advice I get from my Priest. To say that my position is for ALL Catholics is incorrect. I have no authority to set doctrine nor dogma for our Church as a whole.

If I could, I would tell anyone, Catholic or othewise, to stay away from joining any organization if it doesn’t fulfill God’s purpose for them. In all things, I’ve been taught to seek God’s will.

The Bible has given us many examples where God set limits on his people on who they could associate with and who they could not.

If you feel compelled to join an organization for just your benefit, I don’t believe it’s Sprititually healthy. If you join for what you feel is God’s purpose to you, then I pray for you to continue to seek God’s will and guidance, and for your success.

Well, unions are composed of individuals. You seem to say that individuals joining unions are endangering their souls. Not that unions and their members have not done some very un-Christian things, even acts of terrorism, in the past, but there is nothing intrinsically immoral about them.

Loyalty and serving an organization (union, fraternal, corporate,etc) could lead a person away from the Church. What I find striking is that person will go into Chruch next Sunday and pray the Our Father by saying “…and lead us not into temptation”.

So here now comes a Catholic this Monday, with a paper to sign in front him asking for his signature in order to join an organization full of Christians, Catholics, athiests, muslims, agnostics, etc, and yet he asked to be not lead into tempation yesterday morning.

Is that irony, paradox, or hipocracy?

But the Church has never held that to mean that we are to isolate ourselves from organization and civic involvement. We are not Jehovah’s Witnesses.

I agree, and I have never proposed such an idea. If you read my first point, It depends on on WHY YOU’RE JOINING OR ASSOCIATING.

It should be to bring Catholics closer to God, and non-Catholics to the one True Church.

Scripture says so, Our Church Fathers say so, not I.

I believe we’re closer to agreement than you think. My excercize in this whole matter was to for the readers to actually READ, and THINK. Not knee jerk with emotional answers.

It is always best to thoughtfully respond than to react, is what my Church has taught me.

Enjoy!

 

[diggerdomer]

T
Scripture says so, Our Church Fathers say so, not I.

Where, exactly? Any examples?

 

[human_being]

it is my opinion that the reason we as a nation are seeking such “socialist type” programs as "national healthcare is due to thdirect link of people Not joining labor unions. Labor unions set rates for trades. They bargain that companies provide healthcare for the employees. And retirement plans. The guy out there refusing to support labor unions is not following capitalist or catholic ideals. A guy gets the best wages and benefits with a group than standing alone. And it more benefits the common good of a community. It’s the people who refuse to join that cause the wages and benefits to drop. The union doesn’t totaly allow the economy to dictate wages for the working class. But as more and more refuse to join,the working man is left to allow the economy to dictate totally his wages. And the economy wants FREE. And as more and more people of a trade refuse to join the trade union of their trade they worsen the conditions and wages of their trade because the union companies must then compete with and eventually fall to the non-unions because they cannot compete with the low costs of non-union companies. Eventually all trades which are being dominated by non-union competition will be worthless trades. It makes no rational sense. People listen to groups more intentlly than individuals. SO IT IS BEST THAT THE INDIVIDUAL JOIN THE GROUP.

It really bothers me that it is so easy for a catholic business type person or college educated catholic finds it so easy to climb aboard the abortion banddwagon, saying how wrong it is for a young poor girl to look out for her economic conditions,yet also finds it so easy to go against church teachings on labor unions to look out for their own economic conditions. It's the utmost in hypocrosy and drives people from the church.IMO.

“The repeated calls issued within the Church’s social doctrine, beginning with Rerum Novarum[60], for the promotion of workers’ associations that can defend their rights must therefore be honoured today even more than in the past, as a prompt and far-sighted response to the urgent need for new forms of cooperation at the international level, as well as the local level.” This is current CATHOLIC teaching which also refers to past catholic teaching. from the new encyclical. And I might add that he does not differentiate between the unions of america today as opposed to some totally pious guild from ancient times.

The unions “force” employers to take care of things in capitalistic ways. They bargained for healthcare and retirement plans. But as competition increases the non-unions win the economics game therefore leaving employers to compete only for profits sake therefore creating a need for socialist programs such as social security and national healthcare.
The encyclical covers stuff like this. IMO if we are headed to a socialist state it is not because of labor unions but on the contrary the lack there of.

 

[human_being]

One might even draw a conclusion relating downfalls in marriage and morals regarding abortion linked with the downsizing of america’s union population. Union membership in the private sector was high between the 1940’s and 1970’s. Today less than 7% of the working population is union in the private sector. Unions provided a secure life until the free market economists of modern times pushed for every law under the sun to destroy the unions. They pushed for all kinds of immorall ideals to brainwash working class people to not join the trade union of their profession. People can say but we have llaws today. we don’t need the unions anymore. This is more brainwashing. For the laws regarding labor are no different to abortion laws. As soon as the unions are diminished and destroyed so to wil be the laws that were fought for IMO. Just as abortion laws change,so to will labor laws as the unions diminish and fade. We are going backwards yet being fooled into the notion that we are going forward. You can correlate alot of different factors in why morals are numb today. But I, for one see a direct link between the diminishing numbers in unions to the diminishing numbers in lasting marriages, and the increase in the numbers of abortions which is also affected by the diminishing numbers in lifelong marriages.
I for one believe wholeheartedly when the POpe supports labor unions.The economic ideals since Reagan have never made sense to me nor sat well with my heart. Finally I have read the words of a world leader who makes sense. Pope Benedict XVI. The economy which supported labor unions was not the economy of every man for himself. Dog eat dog. It can only end in no good. Labor unions are for the common good of a laborer and his family, and his community. It is the division that has brought about the need for the socialist programs which are being considered today,IMO. And if the labor unions are not supported as the Pope says it will only become more socialistic(the economy). Because the fre-market wants free labor and will do what it takes to get it.
The only way to stop Socialism from taking over is increasing the number of laborers in labor unions in the private sector. And if a person doesn’t like the morals of the unions leaders,he should work from the inside to instill catholic morals,just as in anything else.IMO.

 

[human_being]

Now here’s my opinion. If our Christian bretheren were as loyal to our Holy Church, like some of us are to our politcal parties, unions, fraternities, etc, our Church would be so much better off.

Here’s another quote from my protestant like bible:

“No man can serve two masters. For either he will hate the one, and love the other: or he will sustain the one, and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon” Matt 6:24

Well,IMO, you are serving one master and the church by supporting/joining the labor union of your chosen proffession. The Pope says to support them,NOW,MORE THAN EVER. And that would also be being loyal to holy church. And by listening to the pope and applying his teachings,and being loyal to Holy CHurch by doing so,We surely must be serving God instead of OURSELVES. Which is what I belkieve people who refuse to join unions are doing. And they are only destroying something that God gave to the uneducated laborers to better the lives of their families,community, and country. By standing alone I believe it is so much easier to be conquered by the economy. It is only by standing together in solidarity that the uneducated laborer can benefit from capitalism.

 

[thejoemeister]

Well,IMO, you are serving one master and the church by supporting/joining the labor union of your chosen proffession. The Pope says to support them,NOW,MORE THAN EVER. And that would also be being loyal to holy church. And by listening to the pope and applying his teachings,and being loyal to Holy CHurch by doing so,We surely must be serving God instead of OURSELVES. Which is what I belkieve people who refuse to join unions are doing. And they are only destroying something that God gave to the uneducated laborers to better the lives of their families,community, and country. By standing alone I believe it is so much easier to be conquered by the economy. It is only by standing together in solidarity that the uneducated laborer can benefit from capitalism.

Wow, please enlighten me to the mandate that we must join a union of our chosen profession and THAT IT IS PROFITABLE FOR SALVATION IN DOING SO.

So, if I don’t join a union, am I am damned to hell?

 

[human_being]

Wow, please enlighten me to the mandate that we must join a union of our chosen profession and THAT IT IS PROFITABLE FOR SALVATION IN DOING SO.

So, if I don’t join a union, am I am damned to hell?

Well I would think it would be more of following the Pope by joining a union if their is one available in what you do. Read Post 26 in the quotes. His words are not weak suggestions for long drawn out thought. It says that workers associations should be honoured now more than ever. It’s pretty to the point. He doesn’t say maybe or if this or that. He just says their promotion should be honored Now More than ever. That’s urgent That’s his views on fixing the economy morally. He thinks it is the more moral thing to do to PROMOTE labor unions. He defenitely does NOT say to gripe about them or talk bad about them or encourage people not to join them as one of our political parties and their media mouths do.He says to promote them as I am doing. This is from the Pope’s encyclical from July. Yes I do think it is following the faith to join a union if available. Business today has run in the wrong direction and unions is one way to change it. Standing alone(I believe this has something to do with subsiarity) is not going to change this. The big businesses who have always sought profit before the common good have pushed the idea of standing alone. The Pope pushes the ideal of solidarity. Unions promote solidarity. Not joining in a right to work state due to believed moral issues would be wrong in my eyes. The unions as a principle are good. It’s the people who need changing. And if you have the opportunity to join and are a moral person you could join and change it from within,instead of griping about the wrongs of the past. The decline in union numbers has caused more harm than good to the economy IMO. It has caused us to seek national healthcare. Because of the lack of unions less people are working without healthcare.

If you stand in direct opposition to what the Pope is saying maybe you would want to ask your parish priest or bishop if your soul is in danger or if it is indeed a mandate,because I am not the boss on that. I think the Pope wrote his letter to guide us away from the direction the worlds economic mindset has been headed. Calling for a change in the way things are done. The non-union atitude has been dominant for over 20 years now and what I quoted earlier is his answer to it. People don’t want card check due to one parties platform and that platform is not supportive of unions. It stands in direct opposition to honouring the promotion of unions now more than ever as the Pope has called for. It’s black and white. No questions need be asked. If you don’t support card check I would see it as direct opposition of the promotion of unions. You can check your own conscience on that.Maybe you even want to write the Pope a letter to clarify. But it seems pretty clear to me. HE DOES NOT OPPOSE UNIONS as one of our political parties clearly does.

I as a union member voted as the church asked me to oppose abortion. But can you support the unions as the church asks you. Or do they tell you?

 

[thejoemeister]

All I can say is, am I in Kansas, Toto?

My two questions were yes or no questions. No explanations were needed. I am a simple kind of guy.

But since you make some astonishing extrapolations.

It says that workers associations should be honoured now more than ever. It’s pretty to the point.

The word “should” can have different meanings.

But YES or NO, does my “choosing” to join or not join a union of our chosen profession PROFITABLE FOR SALVATION?

Does the Pope say we “should” join a “workers associations” if the available union has communists, or Buddhists, or humanists, or a collection of all 3 (or more)?

After all, didn’t Pope John Paul II help bring the biggest union of them all, the Soviet Union?

Yes I do think it is following the faith to join a union if available.

This attempt at an answer is no answer. I was specific with both of my questions. Again, YES or NO:

Must I join a union of my chosen profession and THAT IT IS PROFITABLE FOR SALVATION IN DOING SO? -and-

If I don’t join a union, am I am damned to hell?

Business today has run in the wrong direction and unions is one way to change it.

Spare me the politics. I care about my Salvation and my going to heaven. I care nothing of politics, and all these cliches.

The unions as a principle are good. It’s the people who need changing. And if you have the opportunity to join and are a moral person you could join and change it from within,instead of griping about the wrongs of the past.

Interesting point, however, I believe you have the cart before the horse.

How about, “you come to the one True Faith, and learn how Jesus died to give you Salvation, and then you can talk to me about your union”?

The decline in union numbers has caused more harm than good to the economy IMO.

Yes, a very humble IMO. If the numbers declined, it’s because people exercised their right to join or not. And now am I to understand that all those people who left unions or chose not to join, Catholic or not, are going to Hell?

It has caused us to seek national healthcare. Because of the lack of unions less people are working without healthcare.

Again, very political babble. We are Christians who believe in the Good News. I don’t recall a union plan of salvation in Scripture.

If you stand in direct opposition to what the Pope is saying maybe you would want to ask your parish priest or bishop if your soul is in danger or if it is indeed a mandate,because I am not the boss on that. I think the Pope wrote his letter to guide us away from the direction the worlds economic mindset has been headed. Calling for a change in the way things are done. The non-union atitude has been dominant for over 20 years now and what I quoted earlier is his answer to it. People don’t want card check due to one parties platform and that platform is not supportive of unions. It stands in direct opposition to honouring the promotion of unions now more than ever as the Pope has called for. It’s black and white.

I agree that I need to speak to the leaders of my parish and diocese and I have. Funny, they don’t answer my questions directly either. Hmmm, there’s a pattern here…

Not sure what is so black and white, but hey-I was unaware that the Pope supported “card check” and not the right to vote in private. I was wondering about that…

But it seems pretty clear to me. HE DOES NOT OPPOSE UNIONS as one of our political parties clearly does.

Boy, you seem to have it out for one political party. They all can drop off the cliff for all I care since no major political party is Christ centered.

I as a union member voted as the church asked me to oppose abortion. But can you support the unions as the church asks you. Or do they tell you?

My church asked us to support health care reform. Only they can’t tell us “how” to do that without violating 2000 years of church tradition, the catechism, and Scripture.

So I ask but one more time…

Yes or No,

Must I join a union of my chosen profession and THAT IT IS PROFITABLE FOR SALVATION IN DOING SO? -and-

If I don’t join a union, am I am damned to hell?

Enjoy!

 

[thejoemeister]

Your posts indicate that you are arguing just for the sake of arguing on the Internet. Though, I don’t mind - it’s a slow Saturday, so I’m game.

Very few, actually. Most of the major issues and sinful acts are mentioned in the Catechism or Canon Law, or, at least, logically follow from something therein.

Since the Church saw fit to condemn Freemasonry, and other similar groups, one would think that, given the prevalence of labor unions, there would have been a specific, magisterial document barring union membership, especially if any association with non-Catholics were barred.

Nothing wrong with scripture. However, privately interpreting scripture, outside the magisterium of the Church, is one of the hallmarks of Protestantism. There are 3 ways God is revealed: Scripture, Tradition, and the Magisterium. You point to the first, but ignore the second two. There is nothing in Sacred Tradition or the Magisterium which suggests that joining secular organizations with non-believers is immoral. As a matter of fact, the Popes and Bishops have indicated to the contrary, through their actions if nothing else.

Again, cite to the Catechism, Canon Law, or even an encyclical or apostolic letter, or any Church document which supports your position. In 2000+ years, I’m sure the subject has come up.

Ah, the tried and true tactic of marginalizing the person you disagree with. I am very disappointed.

I am currently re-reading the RERUM NOVARUM, ON CAPITAL AND LABOR, ENCYCLICAL OF POPE LEO XIII MAY 15, 1891

It contains numerous quotes of our Church fathers and Scripture.

So far, it appears my understandings are spot on.

Also, I am trying to find a trade guild or union, or worker association, founded completely on serving God and Christ Jesus. Do you know of any?

Take good care!

 

[human_being]

Ah, the tried and true tactic of marginalizing the person you disagree with. I am very disappointed.

I am currently re-reading the RERUM NOVARUM, ON CAPITAL AND LABOR, ENCYCLICAL OF POPE LEO XIII MAY 15, 1891

It contains numerous quotes of our Church fathers and Scripture.

So far, it appears my understandings are spot on.

Also, I am trying to find a trade guild or union, or worker association, founded completely on serving God and Christ Jesus. Do you know of any?

Take good care!

Check this out:catholiclabor.org/gen-art.htm
I’m sorry but it almost sounds to me like you want to become a trappist monk or something who only stays in the monastary and never comes out. Evn priests sometimes deal with people who are Budhists, Hindu’s atheists,communists and a bunch of other things.So does thePope. He had meetings with Obama and Bush. I don’t know what you’re trying to say. In most situations you may have to associate with somebody who may not be catholic. If you are looking for “perfect” Christians to associate with I don’t think you’ll find any. Even the Pope’s go to confession. I think it is up to the person joining the union on wether they want to serve God and Jesus Christ. The link listed above may lead you someplace though.Sorry about the politics earlier. Most discussions on unions lead into that that I’ve encountered…If you consider following the Pope’s direction Leading to salvation… I would join a union. Good luck to you in finding the type you refer.of. I personally don’t know of any of the type you seek. But there are Catholics in my Local and in my workplace and most issues I’ve had I bounce off of these catholics. They seem to make the most sense to me with their answers even though I rarely talk about the Faith with them. It just works that way with me. I trust the guys who go with what’s right instead of just always leaning to the union side of issues or always leaning towards the company side.

 

[thejoemeister]

Check this out:catholiclabor.org/gen-art.htm
I’m sorry but it almost sounds to me like you want to become a trappist monk or something who only stays in the monastary and never comes out. Evn priests sometimes deal with people who are Budhists, Hindu’s atheists,communists and a bunch of other things.So does thePope…

I believe you have me confused with someone else. I live my day out in the world, meeting all kinds of people, different faiths, heritages, etc.

What I finding is there are many here who are quick to judge. And we all know, or at least I hope we know, where that leads.

Now, let’s compare apples to apples. Being out in the world amongst people of every type and stripe is one thing. A good thing. Why be a light of Christ and not let it shine on those around me? I make it a point to be an example to others so that when they inquire as to my beliefs and behavior, I can espouse the teachings of our Savior.

So I leave my “monastery”, work and play out in the world, with the hope of bringing people closer to Christ and His Church. That’s what I was taught to do.

Now compare that to signing agreements (covenants, etc) with those who are not of my faith, such as joining secular unions, secular fraternities, etc. These actions are distinct from the previous. I need to be very careful, not to unequally yoke myself.

If the majority of a union, association, fraternity, etc, want to support an action contrary to my teachings, what do I do? Do I serve my earthly master and put my soul at risk? Or, dishonor my agreement, which is a sin, and decline to engage in the organization’s activity?

What a conundrum, no?

Here’s how Pope Leo XIII put it i his RERUM NOVARUM, ENCYCLICAL OF POPE LEO XIII ON CAPITAL AND LABOR (My emphasis added):

1. Associations of every kind, and especially those of working men, are now far more common than heretofore. As regards many of these there is no need at present to inquire whence they spring, what are their objects, or what the means they imply. Now, there is a good deal of evidence in favor of the opinion that many of these societies are in the hands of secret leaders, and are managed on principles ill - according with Christianity and the public well-being; and that they do their utmost to get within their grasp the whole field of labor, and force working men either to join them or to starve. Under these circumstances Christian working men must do one of two things: either join associations in which their religion will be exposed to peril, or form associations among themselves and unite their forces so as to shake off courageously the yoke of so unrighteous and intolerable an oppression. No one who does not wish to expose man’s chief good to extreme risk will for a moment hesitate to say that the second alternative should by all means be adopted.

Also,

57… What advantage can it be to a working man to obtain by means of a society material well-being, if he endangers his soul for lack of spiritual food? “What doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world and suffer the loss of his soul?”(39)This, as our Lord teaches, is the mark or character that distinguishes the Christian from the heathen. “After all these things do the heathen seek . . . Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and His justice: and all these things shall be added unto you.”(40)Let our associations, then, look first and before all things to God; let religious instruction have therein the foremost place, each one being carefully taught what is his duty to God, what he has to believe, what to hope for, and how he is to work out his salvation; and let all be warned and strengthened with special care against wrong principles and false teaching. Let the working man be urged and led to the worship of God, to the earnest practice of religion, and, among other things, to the keeping holy of Sundays and holy days.

So far, I have yet find unions, that fit the Pope’s requisites.

Enjoy your day!

JOE

 

[human_being]

I believe you have me confused with someone else. I live my day out in the world, meeting all kinds of people, different faiths, heritages, etc.

What I finding is there are many here who are quick to judge. And we all know, or at least I hope we know, where that leads.

Now, let’s compare apples to apples. Being out in the world amongst people of every type and stripe is one thing. A good thing. Why be a light of Christ and not let it shine on those around me? I make it a point to be an example to others so that when they inquire as to my beliefs and behavior, I can espouse the teachings of our Savior.

So I leave my “monastery”, work and play out in the world, with the hope of bringing people closer to Christ and His Church. That’s what I was taught to do.

Now compare that to signing agreements (covenants, etc) with those who are not of my faith, such as joining secular unions, secular fraternities, etc. These actions are distinct from the previous. I need to be very careful, not to unequally yoke myself.

If the majority of a union, association, fraternity, etc, want to support an action contrary to my teachings, what do I do? Do I serve my earthly master and put my soul at risk? Or, dishonor my agreement, which is a sin, and decline to engage in the organization’s activity?

What a conundrum, no?

Here’s how Pope Leo XIII put it i his RERUM NOVARUM, ENCYCLICAL OF POPE LEO XIII ON CAPITAL AND LABOR (My emphasis added):

Also,

So far, I have yet find unions, that fit the Pope’s requisites.

Enjoy your day!

JOE

I really believe he was talking about freemason’s and such in your quote’s. Rerum noverum was written 100 years after guilds were abolished. I don’t believe he’s talking about unions in the encyclical. I think they were secret societies such as the freemasons. Which wanted very much to undermine the church.

 

[thejoemeister]

I really believe he was talking about freemason’s and such in your quote’s. Rerum noverum was written 100 years after guilds were abolished. I don’t believe he’s talking about unions in the encyclical. I think they were secret societies such as the freemasons. Which wanted very much to undermine the church.

Pope Leo XIII writes 60+ points ON CAPITAL AND LABOR and all this time he was secretly describing the Freemason’s?

And it matters that it was written 100 years ago? How long ago were our Holy Books written? Do they lack standing now because they are so old?

Believe what you choose to believe.

 

[human_being]

Pope Leo XIII writes 60+ points ON CAPITAL AND LABOR and all this time he was secretly describing the Freemason’s?

And it matters that it was written 100 years ago? How long ago were our Holy Books written? Do they lack standing now because they are so old?

Believe what you choose to believe.

i’ve read it myself a few times in the past few months and I did not say that it matters if it was written 100 years ago. What I said is tha IT WAS Written 100 years AFTER guilds (labor unions) were ABOLISHED. To me this means that there were no unions. That’s why working people were being abused. Leo also wrote about freemasonry and socialism. I believe that freemasonry was a working man’s group that stopped being working men. Business type people used it for secrecy at that time. It had nothing to do with the trade of masonry by the late 1890’s. Since the working people had no guilds nor protection people were begining to appear who were pushing socialism. And I think the pope believed (and probably rightly) that these types used the secrecy of freemason type groups to push their agenda. Rerum Noverum was a writng to inform catholics to stay away from socialism. I don’t think he was refering to stay away from unions because they had already been abolished. Trades men couldn’t stick together and dictate their rates so alot of people were working for very low wages. It’s similar to what’s happening today. The market is deciding alot of people’s rates as opposed to the unions setting their rates.
Did you read the new encyclical. I can post a few fromNow and from Pope JPII and from POpe Paul before him if you wish.

“3. In any case we clearly see, and on this there is general agreement, that some opportune remedy must be found quickly for the misery and wretchedness pressing so unjustly on the majority of the working class: for the ancient workingmen’s guilds were abolished in the last century, and no other protective organization took their place. Public institutions and the laws set aside the ancient religion. Hence, by degrees it has come to pass that working men have been surrendered, isolated and helpless, to the hardheartedness of employers and the greed of unchecked competition. The mischief has been increased by rapacious usury, which, although more than once condemned by the Church, is nevertheless, under a different guise, but with like injustice, still practiced by covetous and grasping men. To this must be added that the hiring of labor and the conduct of trade are concentrated in the hands of comparatively few; so that a small number of very rich men have been able to lay upon the teeming masses of the laboring poor a yoke little better than that of slavery itself.” RERUM NOVERUM

for the ancient workingmen’s guilds were abolished in the last century, and no other protective organization took their place

 

[human_being]

Pope Leo XIII writes 60+ points ON CAPITAL AND LABOR and all this time he was secretly describing the Freemason’s?

And it matters that it was written 100 years ago? How long ago were our Holy Books written? Do they lack standing now because they are so old?

Believe what you choose to believe.

I have actually used the same type of stuff you speak of in defense of unions. Because the politics of today has every answer against them. So you are very mistaken to assume that I don’t believe in words written from a pope 100 years ago. As amatter of fact I have a few of them in my favorites bar of this computer.

 

[human_being]

Here’s another from 1901:papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13grcom.htm
We’re on the right track,you and I,Ithink. No matter what it seems that alot of changes must take place for it all to work out properly.

1. We have designedly made mention here of virtue and religion. For, it is the opinion of some, and the error is already very common, that the social question is merely an economic one, whereas in point of fact it is, above all, a moral and religious matter, and for that reason must be settled by the principles of morality and according to the dictates of religion. For, even though wages are doubled and the hours of labor are shortened and food is cheapened, yet, if the working man hearkens to the doctrines that are taught on this subject, as he is prone to do, and is prompted by the examples set before him to throw off respect for God and to enter upon a life of immorality, his labors and his gain will avail him naught.
2. Trial and experience have made it abundantly clear that many a workman lives in cramped and miserable quarters, in spite of his shorter hours and larger wages, simply because he has cast aside the restraints of morality and religion. Take away the instinct which Christian wisdom has planted and nurtured in men’s hearts, take away foresight, temperance, frugality, patience, and other rightful, natural habits, no matter how much he may strive, he will never achieve prosperity. That is the reason why We have incessantly exhorted Catholics to enter these associations for bettering the condition of the laboring classes, and to organize other undertakings with the same object in view; but We have likewise warned them that all this should be done under the auspices of religion, with its help and under its guidance.

I think lack of respect for God has permeated every class of our society…refering to the last sentence of #11 above. And it is availing us all naught.